Hyde
Jul 20 2007, 07:24 PM
I am a pretty new GM and I have problems dealing with my mage's Mind Probe...
As my games usually have a part of investigation, it can really screw up my plans when they get their hand on someone and Mind Probe him.
I know the target realizes he is mind probed, but still. If they ever get their hands on a villain, they can make him spill the beans without even sweating...
How do you deal wih Mind Probe in your games?
Ravor
Jul 20 2007, 07:42 PM
A couple of different ways;
( 1 ) Mindraping people is nasty, and every mundane "knows" from the Trid that you can also make them forget whatever you want as well as convince them to eat their own children. You'd be better off telling people that you are a Bloodmage.
( 2 ) Using either magic or drugs to lower your target's Willpower holds a danger of giving false results.
( 3 ) Don't ever try it on a sleeping target if you want to gleam anything even remotely useful.
( 4 ) The baddies understand that Mindraping Mages exist so they are going to use the "need to know" standard, and your average sec guard or grunt really doesn't need to know all the much.
FrankTrollman
Jul 20 2007, 07:42 PM
Some teams have good interrogation skills, other teams don't. Some teams get good intelligence from the Matrix, others don't. Some teams are good at astral recon, social legwork, drone overflight, or whatever... and other groups don't.
What avenues of investigation are open to different groups is a major indicator of how they will accomplish missions. And having Mind Probe is functionally similar to having a face with a high Intimidation check.
-Frank
DireRadiant
Jul 20 2007, 07:44 PM
Scanners....
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 20 2007, 07:44 PM
There is a thing like 'too much hits' when mind-probing.
Hyde
Jul 20 2007, 07:49 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
Some teams have good interrogation skills, other teams don't. Some teams get good intelligence from the Matrix, others don't. Some teams are good at astral recon, social legwork, drone overflight, or whatever... and other groups don't.
What avenues of investigation are open to different groups is a major indicator of how they will accomplish missions. And having Mind Probe is functionally similar to having a face with a high Intimidation check.
-Frank |
It's easy to roleplay an interrogation, and matrix searches rarely give much detail on the cases they work on. I want my players to actually think a bit and then roleplay, and not just rolling dice.
How do I roleplay a Mind Probe? "Okay you have managed to enter in his head (with his 14 dice, it's easy...), ask a question, I just have to answer." Great...
Ravor
Jul 20 2007, 07:51 PM
Why don't you "walk" the Mage through the target's memories? Flashes of completely unrelated bits of the target's past, the "capture" through the target's eyes, the fear and anger at being mindraped...
Particle_Beam
Jul 20 2007, 07:54 PM
What's the deal? If the target gets captured and is then interrogated, it doesn't matter anymore if he gets physically tortured, mindraped by a mind-probe, given a truth serum or forced to watch America Superstars if the Runners believe that the target might know something.
There are still other and better opportunities to play out another scene.
Moon-Hawk
Jul 20 2007, 07:58 PM
QUOTE (Ravor) |
( 3 ) Don't ever try it on a sleeping target if you want to gleam anything even remotely useful. |
Unless you are polishing your target until they are shiny, the word is "glean".
[/grammar nazi pet peeve mode]
Although this was possibly just a typo.
eidolon
Jul 20 2007, 08:06 PM
I'm not a fan of the "mind probe means we win" strategy, either, and I have
posted a decent amount on Mind Probe, but it's all in relation to SR3. Still, if any of it is helpful, there you go.
James McMurray
Jul 20 2007, 08:27 PM
Never forget the aftereffects. Assuming they don't immediately kill everyone they mind probe they'll be generating a trail. If they aren't all disguised when it happens, they'll be generating a trail that the police sketch programs can add lots of details to. Even if they are all disguised, they probably just disguised their face, so the trail will have some extra info in it.
Eventually something will happen and that trail will come back to haunt them.
Also, very few people will enjoy having their deepest thoughts ripped away from them. While the vast majority of mind probe targets won't be important people, eventually someone who knows somebody who knows somebody will get probed and go looking for a little payback.
Buster
Jul 20 2007, 08:30 PM
QUOTE (Hyde @ Jul 20 2007, 02:49 PM) |
It's easy to roleplay an interrogation, and matrix searches rarely give much detail on the cases they work on. I want my players to actually think a bit and then roleplay, and not just rolling dice. How do I roleplay a Mind Probe? "Okay you have managed to enter in his head (with his 14 dice, it's easy...), ask a question, I just have to answer." Great... |
In real life, interrogations take several hours. How is that easy to roleplay? It's not like Austin Powers where you just have to ask 3 times and they always answer you.
Kyoto Kid
Jul 20 2007, 08:32 PM
...like eidolon, I've already said my peace on this in previous threads.
For my current SRIII campaign, there is no such spell. This includes for PC mages, NPC mages Spirits, GDs, IEs, Drop Bears, Space Aliens...
Buster
Jul 20 2007, 08:35 PM
QUOTE (James McMurray) |
Never forget the aftereffects. Assuming they don't immediately kill everyone they mind probe they'll be generating a trail. If they aren't all disguised when it happens, they'll be generating a trail that the police sketch programs can add lots of details to. Even if they are all disguised, they probably just disguised their face, so the trail will have some extra info in it.
Eventually something will happen and that trail will come back to haunt them.
Also, very few people will enjoy having their deepest thoughts ripped away from them. While the vast majority of mind probe targets won't be important people, eventually someone who knows somebody who knows somebody will get probed and go looking for a little payback. |
You meant to say interrogation, not Mind Probe right? The target doesn't ever need to see you if you use Mind Probe (especially with ritual magic or an extended range version), but with interrogation, he has hours to memorize your face and your voice.
James McMurray
Jul 20 2007, 08:52 PM
True, if they're discreet about it Mind Probe is safer, but you're still developing a trail. And how often are runners consistently discreet?
If they're casting the spell at a decent force, the odds are pretty good you're going to see it. Since you need three net hits and your total hits are limited to your force, you'll almost always be using at least force 5. That puts the threshold at 1. If they cast it at force 6 or higher it will automatically be noticed by everyone around.
Buster
Jul 20 2007, 08:54 PM
As a fully sentient AI private investigator, I'm both discreet and discrete.
It's true what you said about a high force mind probe though. Follow up with an Alter Memory spell, and all is well. Personally, I like Influence...they actually think it was their idea to tell you everything!
Buster
Jul 20 2007, 09:06 PM
QUOTE (Particle_Beam) |
What's the deal? If the target gets captured and is then interrogated, it doesn't matter anymore if he gets physically tortured, mindraped by a mind-probe, given a truth serum or forced to watch America Superstars if the Runners believe that the target might know something. There are still other and better opportunities to play out another scene. |
I agree with Particle Beam. In fact, I would say Mind Probe would generate a lot LESS blowback than interrogation, torture, and drugs.
Solomon Greene
Jul 20 2007, 09:10 PM
QUOTE (Hyde) |
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 20 2007, 09:42 PM) | Some teams have good interrogation skills, other teams don't. Some teams get good intelligence from the Matrix, others don't. Some teams are good at astral recon, social legwork, drone overflight, or whatever... and other groups don't.
What avenues of investigation are open to different groups is a major indicator of how they will accomplish missions. And having Mind Probe is functionally similar to having a face with a high Intimidation check.
-Frank |
It's easy to roleplay an interrogation, and matrix searches rarely give much detail on the cases they work on. I want my players to actually think a bit and then roleplay, and not just rolling dice. How do I roleplay a Mind Probe? "Okay you have managed to enter in his head (with his 14 dice, it's easy...), ask a question, I just have to answer." Great...
|
"Your target looks at you with unmitigated fear on his face. Beads of sweat crowd and drip from his forehead as you prepare your spell. He begins to murmur softly, tears welling as you begin to press into his mind.
You begin to sift past his surface level of fear, past all the trid shows he's seen about being mindraped, all the hate and revulsion he feels, past his sense of sense of shame, you begin to dredge up what you feel might be relevant information. You begin to dig..
...
You slowly come back to yourself, as you teamates look at you askance. Your victim lies, huddled, on the floor. He clutches his head, rocking back and forth, mumbling and softly crying to himself."
eidolon
Jul 20 2007, 10:03 PM
Solomon Greene, you are now my other favorite GM in regard to Mind Probe.
Solomon Greene
Jul 20 2007, 10:04 PM
Thank you!
Particle_Beam
Jul 20 2007, 10:13 PM
My victims tend to be gagged and bound, so that they can't even move and resist physically, nor scream all too loud. Helps to make sure the people don't commit suicide before they've got interrogated, and doesn't call any cops or other noisy do-gooder in vicinity to investigate.
Really, does it matter anymore if you use drugs, violence, sexual coercion, mind-probes or a record of the Tele-Tubbies to get the informations out of your victim? You're playing a criminal for hire, after all.
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 20 2007, 10:20 PM
VR interrogation is always nice, too: With hot ASIST, the limit really just is your imagination...
Kyoto Kid
Jul 20 2007, 10:35 PM
...dangling them out the back of a cargo jet flying at 2,000M altitude over the Atlantic on a spectra fibre rope works pretty good too.
Hyde
Jul 20 2007, 10:36 PM
QUOTE (eidolon) |
Solomon Greene, you are now my other favorite GM in regard to Mind Probe. |
agreed
Solomon Greene
Jul 20 2007, 11:03 PM
QUOTE (Particle_Beam) |
My victims tend to be gagged and bound, so that they can't even move and resist physically, nor scream all too loud. Helps to make sure the people don't commit suicide before they've got interrogated, and doesn't call any cops or other noisy do-gooder in vicinity to investigate.
Really, does it matter anymore if you use drugs, violence, sexual coercion, mind-probes or a record of the Tele-Tubbies to get the informations out of your victim? You're playing a criminal for hire, after all. |
shrugs
Criminal does not always equal sociopathic or psychotic. Some people have standards. I know my hardened criminals draw the line at rape - mind or otherwise. They also won't touch kids. What a weakness, eh?
Damn drugless hippies. I'd love to have a heroin addicted pc in my group.
Particle_Beam
Jul 20 2007, 11:17 PM
So your criminal character would rather use knives, burning coals, cigarettes, acids, choking gags and other really painful methods that are even more worse than the mind-probe spell, which doesn't even inflict pain at all? Oh well, I don't mind, in the end, whatever our characters do, it's illegal, it's criminal, and it's punishable by law.
Solomon Greene
Jul 20 2007, 11:39 PM
Worse is in the eye of the beholder.
Particle_Beam
Jul 20 2007, 11:47 PM
Exactly.
My criminal mage for hire thinks that mind-probes aren't that harmful for the victim, totally neclegting the fact that he has complete access to her intimate knowledge, while other people have to rely on physical means, like in the film 'Hostel', but consider this to be less horrible than magically peeking into the brain of your target, while other will try to insert many strong doses of truth-compelling drugs into the blood stream of the guy who doesn't want to talk.
In the end, it doesn't matter. The ones' not suppossed to get the information get it anyway, and there's nothing you can do.
Buster
Jul 20 2007, 11:55 PM
What is this crap about "mind rape" anyways? You freaks might like to invent a spell like that, but I'll just use mind probe or influence to get information. Given a choice, I'd take a Mind Probe over psychological or physical torture any day of the week.
Particle_Beam
Jul 21 2007, 12:02 AM
Magical voyeurismus into your thoughts and memory patterns becomes exagerrated into mind rape, to so demonize magicians.
I do encourage this demonization, as it enriches the SR setting. After all, most people still aren't that educated about magic, even if they get to see it day-for-day in the Trid.
Kyoto Kid
Jul 21 2007, 12:05 AM
...ahh but where's the sport in it just sitting there sucking out memories? Kind of fun for the PCs, watching the fellow windmill about in the plane's slipstream. All he got from it was a little windburn & soiled trousers, otherwise he was fine.
...& I was the GM.
Solomon Greene
Jul 21 2007, 12:09 AM
QUOTE (Buster) |
What is this crap about "mind rape" anyways? You freaks might like to invent a spell like that, but I'll just use mind probe or influence to get information. Given a choice, I'd take a Mind Probe over psychological or physical torture any day of the week. |
You forcibly enter someone's most intimate area without permission for your own ends.
Do you have a better term for it?
Friggin' mindrapers.
Particle_Beam
Jul 21 2007, 12:15 AM
QUOTE |
Do you have a better term for it? |
Yeah. Perverted memory voyeurs.
"Back in my time, those perverted freaks only wanted to see me naked. Now they want to see my past, too. Get your own memories. "
Now, memory alterations AND compulsions, that's more likely to be called mind rape, as you do indeed shape the mind into things that really shouldn't be so.
Buster
Jul 21 2007, 12:37 AM
QUOTE (Solomon Greene) |
Friggin' mindrapers. |
Oh you're one of those Nazi witchhunters always blaming us magi for heinous crimes and cruel sorcery. I am totally going to mind rape you for that!
eidolon
Jul 21 2007, 12:40 AM
QUOTE (Buster) |
What is this crap about "mind rape" anyways? |
I don't know if this was a legitimate question or not, but throughout the fluff of previous editions (both the text and the shadowtalk), Mind Probe is described as being similar to rape. Not the physical act, obviously, but the invasion and emotional damage.
Ravor
Jul 21 2007, 01:40 AM
>>> Although I enjoy burning a witchsniffer at the stake as much as any wizard, even I find mindrape to be one of the more distasteful tools of our trade. <<< -Bot
>>> *Snorts* Big talk coming from a fragging blood mage! <<< -Dr D
FriendoftheDork
Jul 21 2007, 01:54 AM
QUOTE (Solomon Greene) |
QUOTE (Hyde @ Jul 20 2007, 02:49 PM) | QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 20 2007, 09:42 PM) | Some teams have good interrogation skills, other teams don't. Some teams get good intelligence from the Matrix, others don't. Some teams are good at astral recon, social legwork, drone overflight, or whatever... and other groups don't.
What avenues of investigation are open to different groups is a major indicator of how they will accomplish missions. And having Mind Probe is functionally similar to having a face with a high Intimidation check.
-Frank |
It's easy to roleplay an interrogation, and matrix searches rarely give much detail on the cases they work on. I want my players to actually think a bit and then roleplay, and not just rolling dice. How do I roleplay a Mind Probe? "Okay you have managed to enter in his head (with his 14 dice, it's easy...), ask a question, I just have to answer." Great...
|
"Your target looks at you with unmitigated fear on his face. Beads of sweat crowd and drip from his forehead as you prepare your spell. He begins to murmur softly, tears welling as you begin to press into his mind.
You begin to sift past his surface level of fear, past all the trid shows he's seen about being mindraped, all the hate and revulsion he feels, past his sense of sense of shame, you begin to dredge up what you feel might be relevant information. You begin to dig..
...
You slowly come back to yourself, as you teamates look at you askance. Your victim lies, huddled, on the floor. He clutches his head, rocking back and forth, mumbling and softly crying to himself."
|
Nice, but I'm afraid my team would simply shrug at the though of using this method. The only reason they don't kill anyone that comes in their way is that it is less effective, and creates more problems than it solves.
I loathe the day our mage get's hold of that spell!
Ravor
Jul 21 2007, 02:08 AM
Well, remember that mindraping works both ways, it's entirely posssible to take the best roleplayer in your group on a solo session where he/she gets mindraped and turned into a magical Judas.
Also just because the team isn't moved by mindrape, doesn't mean that the rest of the world isn't, so even if they use the spell to great effect they would be better off bragging about child molestation then talking about the mindrape spell.
toturi
Jul 21 2007, 02:09 AM
QUOTE (Solomon Greene @ Jul 21 2007, 05:10 AM) |
QUOTE (Hyde @ Jul 20 2007, 02:49 PM) | QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 20 2007, 09:42 PM) | Some teams have good interrogation skills, other teams don't. Some teams get good intelligence from the Matrix, others don't. Some teams are good at astral recon, social legwork, drone overflight, or whatever... and other groups don't.
What avenues of investigation are open to different groups is a major indicator of how they will accomplish missions. And having Mind Probe is functionally similar to having a face with a high Intimidation check.
-Frank |
It's easy to roleplay an interrogation, and matrix searches rarely give much detail on the cases they work on. I want my players to actually think a bit and then roleplay, and not just rolling dice. How do I roleplay a Mind Probe? "Okay you have managed to enter in his head (with his 14 dice, it's easy...), ask a question, I just have to answer." Great...
|
"Your target looks at you with unmitigated fear on his face. Beads of sweat crowd and drip from his forehead as you prepare your spell. He begins to murmur softly, tears of rage welling as you begin to press into his mind.
You begin to sift past his surface level of fear, past all the trid shows he's seen about being mindraped, all the hate and revulsion he feels, past his sense of sense of guilt, you begin to dredge up what you feel might be relevant information. You begin to dig..
...
You slowly come back to yourself, as you teamates look at you with benign approval. Your target is huddled in a corner, with a snarl on his face, his true character clear to all who can see it. The effects of your spell means nothing is hidden and the darkest vilest secrets in the vaults of his mind is brought to the surface and into the light of day.
|
Fixed.
Ravor
Jul 21 2007, 02:12 AM
Naw, they should still fear that the mindraping mage could do the samething to them just as easily.
toturi
Jul 21 2007, 02:36 AM
QUOTE |
Naw, they should still fear that the mindraping mage could do the samething to them just as easily. |
Naw, they won't if they have nothing to hide.
Dancer
Jul 21 2007, 05:10 AM
QUOTE (toturi) |
QUOTE | Naw, they should still fear that the mindraping mage could do the samething to them just as easily. |
Naw, they won't if they have nothing to hide.
|
A shadowrunner. With nothing to hide.
This is the 'honest politician' thing again isn't it?
Tarantula
Jul 21 2007, 05:23 AM
As was pointed out previously, this is nothing that a good face adept couldn't talk out of them. No matter how many penalties you stack up against the adept.
Prae
Jul 21 2007, 05:35 AM
I prefer the
threat of mind probe.
"Ye don't start talkin' soon, and we're gonna let Thermowhatchalopolus here dig through your brain case till we finds what we'z lookin' fer."
Mind you, Thermowhatchalopolus was normally me (a street sam) dressed up in some really snazzy "hermetic" robes, a pointy hat, and a curled piece of rebar for a staff.
The occasional, "He's lying. I won't damage him like that last guy. I'll be extra special not to destroy his ability to control his bladder. And that other dude only sees hell hounds, once... maybe twice a day now." type comments would normally turn the poor sod into a veritable library of information.
No magic trail, no body to hide, and no renting an airplane to fly over the Atlantic
Kyoto Kid
Jul 21 2007, 05:51 AM
QUOTE (Prae) |
I prefer the threat of mind probe.
"Ye don't start talkin' soon, and we're gonna let Thermowhatchalopolus here dig through your brain case till we finds what we'z lookin' fer."
Mind you, Thermowhatchalopolus was normally me (a street sam) dressed up in some really snazzy "hermetic" robes, a pointy hat, and a curled piece of rebar for a staff.
The occasional, "He's lying. I won't damage him like that last guy. I'll be extra special not to destroy his ability to control his bladder. And that other dude only sees hell hounds, once... maybe twice a day now." type comments would normally turn the poor sod into a veritable library of information.
No magic trail, no body to hide, and no renting an airplane to fly over the Atlantic |
...nice technique. I like it.
BTW, who ever said that the runners
rented that cargo jet?
Prae
Jul 21 2007, 05:56 AM
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
BTW, who ever said that the runners rented that cargo jet? |
Aha! The Rigger with more money than God? lol
Kyoto Kid
Jul 21 2007, 06:03 AM
...well...you were close with "rigger"...
...who was friends with a decker...
toturi
Jul 21 2007, 06:17 AM
QUOTE (Dancer) |
QUOTE (toturi @ Jul 21 2007, 02:36 AM) | QUOTE | Naw, they should still fear that the mindraping mage could do the samething to them just as easily. |
Naw, they won't if they have nothing to hide.
|
A shadowrunner. With nothing to hide.
This is the 'honest politician' thing again isn't it?
|
A shadowrunner has nothing to hide. He is hidden. He hides nothing.
Tarantula
Jul 21 2007, 06:28 AM
Do remember, theres nothing in mind probe which says that you aren't able to act while being probed. So, I'm sure the sammy has nothing to be afraid of from the mage, why? Mage starts a mind probe, roll initiative, sammy shoots mage, mind probe stops.
PlatonicPimp
Jul 21 2007, 06:47 AM
Honestly, the problem isn't the mind probe spell here. If your Players only leave people alive because sometimes it's easier, and wouldn't blink at a elaborate discription of the psychological impact of a mind-rape, then it doesn't matter what you do. They want to capture the badguy, roll some dice, and get him to spill his guts.
And why not?
In another game, called dogs in the vineyard, the GM advice section has some great, well, advice.
"The [characters] you've made have secrets. quite likely terrible secrets - blood and sex and murder and damnation. But you, the GM, have no secrets A'tall. You have cool things - bloody, sexy, murderous, damn cool things - that you can't wait to share"
"uh-oh, they're going to figure out whats going on in the own. I better stonewall. poker face on. and then I'm like, wait a minute, I want them to figure it out. In fact, I want to SHOW them. Otherwise they'll waner around waiting for me to drop a clue, while I've got my stupid poker face on, and we won' have any fun the whole evening."
Don't worry about making the information in the NPC's head harder to get. Worry about making what they find cool enough to warrant the effort. Then the story will be driven not by how hard it was to get somewhere, but by how much the Players wanted to go.
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