To raise a thought inspired by a closed thread- how many of your campaigns get involved in big wars? Sure there's chinese war lords who skirmish, the Japanese in CFS and Aztecs in yucitan, probably weirdo's killing each other from the nile to the irrawaddy just as they have for millennia, but How many big wars? Most major cultures seem to have learned that it is incredibly costly in man power and resources. 1914 was the last time great powers went to war because they thought it was just an extension of Politics. Even at the depth of the Cold War the soviets backed away from the step of open war.
sure there's subversive stuff going on- James Bond, navy SeALs, Blackhawk Down but what does UCAS, CAS, France, UK etc do with armored divisions? Strategic bomber squadrons?
Full Version: Big War in SR
Every now and I again I use a "real war" as a backdrop, but it's seldom more then that.
I've worked out a number of small scale battles, mostly merc groups and such. That way I can and have involved them with larger scale wars, such as in Poland, but have an easy out for them as well. For me, it was jsut easier than having them deeply entrenched in a military heirarchy.
Yeah, the bad thing about involving characters in the military is that the entire point of the structure is that a lot of the larger decision-making ability is specifically denied them. I remember playing in a Vietnam war meets Call of Cthulhu game once, and after a few games the GM had to kill off the NCO and promote one of the players because it was getting too hard to justify us doing things other than what we were directly ordered to do.
~J
~J
I was thinking in terms of what they rerally do with the stuff. there's lots of SR stuff on the side- most 1980's action movies- but unless the players want to play like 1st Squad, 3rd Platoon, Baker Company, 312th Infantry Regiment of the 1st Infantry Division, what the heck does the government do with them?
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| what the heck does the government do with them? |
Exactly the problem IMO. Either they're grunts, or some sort of black bag delta force crew. Either type can be pretty confining for a group of people used to playing shadowrunners after a while. And it doesn't leave a lot of room for branching out, like Kage mentioned.
It's just like normal shadowrunning, save that you only have one fixer and he doesn't give you choices of jobs.
-Frank
-Frank
you guys are missing my point. We all know what the black ops stuff is out there. My question is what the flock are the grunts doing? what do you do qirth 40 MBT's in a regiment?
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| you guys are missing my point. We all know what the black ops stuff is out there. My question is what the flock are the grunts doing? what do you do qirth 40 MBT's in a regiment? |
Order take out.
Seriously, the best "Shadowrun meets Hamburger Hill" adventures I've been in have either had the team:
A. Work as "Permanent Deniable Assets on Long Term Contracts" ... which is shadowrunning in no-mans land.
or
B. Trying to survive while it all falls apart around (or on) them.
The one time we did a Grunt campaign for the UCAS Army, after our "missions" our combat rigger summed it up quite clearly, "This isn't Shadowrun anymore. It's Big Red One with elves."
Now, if you want to use it as color for one of the two situations above, check up some of the D&D mass battle rules/descriptions. They cover everything from Unit disposition with magical assets to nullification of "high powered" threats in the midst of battle.
Hope it helps.
i think you'd have to do a Mogadishu/Iraq-style war for it to work. pitched open-field battles are a) kinda boring, for most runners, and b) unlikely to occur in 2070. tense patrols through occupied territory, factional politics--that could work.
Trench warfare is totally going to make a comeback. You mark my words!
~J
~J
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| It's just like normal shadowrunning, save that you only have one fixer and he doesn't give you choices of jobs. -Frank |
Including, you can't say "no".
| QUOTE (NPC) |
| My question is what the flock are the grunts doing? |
Mostly flocks of NPC grunt stuff. Never had a player who had the desire to play in a platoon. Nor have I ever had the desire to run that sort of game. Not saying that it's "bad", just never had the interest.
| QUOTE (sno fox) |
| you guys are missing my point. We all know what the black ops stuff is out there. My question is what the flock are the grunts doing? what do you do qirth 40 MBT's in a regiment? |
Well, that's outside the scale that shadowrun operates on, so mostly you throw them in as flavor text. If for some reason the players decide to fight 40 MBTs then they die. This isn't like fighting a dragon or something - you could potentially win such a confrontation. But I think your real question is not what the tanks do in the game (look pretty), but what they do in the world. And that actually is a very interesting avenue to pursue.
Shadowrun exists in a world with nearly limitless potential for escalation of conflict. Not just at the top end (where there are literally over a dozen vaguely defined and amoral organizations capable of actually destroying all life on Earth); but granularly from zero all the way up. And so sticks like "squad cars full of security personel" and "drone squadrons delivering nerve gas canisters" exist in order to give some organization the abilty to escalate things up to a "4" rather than just pushing it to "11" every time.
If organization A can ratchet things up to a "6" and organization B can only ratchet things up to a "5", then organization A wins in open conflict, forcing organization B to fight a guerilla war or bend knee. And of course if two organizations both ratchet things up to "11" there's a chance that every man, woman, and child will perish in a fiery holocaust from which no consumers will escape. And it is for this second reason that corporations choose to harrass each other with deniable assets (Shadowrunners) rather than play the escalation game one with another most of the time. But it is for this second reason that corporations and nations maintain aramilitary and military units of a range of strengths in order to tailor their responses to the situations.
Using too much force is worse than using too little. For one thing, force can be ratchetted up in response to enemy activities. So Aztechnology doesn't just get Inti Jiwana to drop Bloodzilla on every problem and speed bump the corporation encounters. Seriously, it has some donut eating security guards sitting around its facilities. If people shoot their way in, Aztechnology will send cars with armed security forces in them to deal with that problem. If people shoot their way in with a rocket launcher, Aztechnology will send a helicopter gunship or three to terminate the problem. If people detonate a FAE to burst in and start filling up an armored car with loot - then AZT sends in a couple of tanks to close off streets.
---
So corporations and nations have units of MBTs in case they go up against organizations whose largest commitable resource is a smaller number of MBTs. And then they have Gulf War I style tank battles to crush the upstarts and force that organization into the shadows - and then they can go back to responding to their actions with a car full of security personel.
-Frank
If the 40 MBTs are unrigged and alone, they probably won't die. By the same token, if the 40 MBTs are really delicious cake, they could have a feast.
~J
~J
Well, I suppose there are a couple solutions I can think of for the rigidity of a military command structure in a war based SR game.
The first solution is to be less realistic and a little more schlocky and Mission: Impossible style. "Your mission, should you choose to accept it..." and then you don't have to accept it. Like they're all suicide missions or something and that's why they're sending the equivalent of Blackwater mercs instead of using Army regulars whose deaths would be politically damaging.
The second solution is to borrow from Twilight 2000 and say the PCs are part of a militrary but they're isolated, cut off, and base just radioed in to tell them that they're on their own because there are no resources that can possibly come to their assistance. This gives the PCs freedom of action to do whatever they feel is appropriate deep behind enemy lines.
I suppose that you could also play with the rigidity rather than against it. You could make part of the game fighting the federal bureaucracy. Have the PCs have a terrible commanding officer who is insecure, micromanaging, and who hides in his tent with guards all the time. However, there are perhaps a couple of ways to get around this horrendous mismanagement, for example taking advantage of contacts to get supplies (it turns out someone who can give you extra ammo is happy to do so because you went to his alma mater) or using paperwork-fu to get reassigned. I suppose that would personally interest me, from a historical perspective, to fight not only enemies, but also realistically modeled bureaucracy.
The first solution is to be less realistic and a little more schlocky and Mission: Impossible style. "Your mission, should you choose to accept it..." and then you don't have to accept it. Like they're all suicide missions or something and that's why they're sending the equivalent of Blackwater mercs instead of using Army regulars whose deaths would be politically damaging.
The second solution is to borrow from Twilight 2000 and say the PCs are part of a militrary but they're isolated, cut off, and base just radioed in to tell them that they're on their own because there are no resources that can possibly come to their assistance. This gives the PCs freedom of action to do whatever they feel is appropriate deep behind enemy lines.
I suppose that you could also play with the rigidity rather than against it. You could make part of the game fighting the federal bureaucracy. Have the PCs have a terrible commanding officer who is insecure, micromanaging, and who hides in his tent with guards all the time. However, there are perhaps a couple of ways to get around this horrendous mismanagement, for example taking advantage of contacts to get supplies (it turns out someone who can give you extra ammo is happy to do so because you went to his alma mater) or using paperwork-fu to get reassigned. I suppose that would personally interest me, from a historical perspective, to fight not only enemies, but also realistically modeled bureaucracy.
| QUOTE |
| I suppose that would personally interest me, from a historical perspective, to fight not only enemies, but also realistically modeled bureaucracy. |
That could be pretty cool. You wouldn't even have to throw down an incompetent commander - just one whose goals don't necessarily match your own.
Consider the case of a mercenary contract: the mercenary company is paid by how much force they are bringing to the table, not by such antiquated concepts as "success". Nevertheless, actually getting your ass kicked loses the company resources, and outright failure or gross negligence will get the contract terminated. So maximizing profit on the war (for the mercenary, not the warring parties or the land being fought over) is a complex system of making enough demonstrable successes that the contract is renewed or expanded while minimizing damage to the unit and not pushing victory far enough that your services are no longer required.
On the other hand, for the individual mercenary soldier the equation is totally different. If the contract ends successfully the soldier can leave Slovenia and possibly sign up for another contract with good references and potentially better pay as soon as he runs out of money in Thai brothels.
So it really isn't hard to imagine a corporate CO being actually obstructionist if you're being "too successful". Like diverting supplies from Patton to Montgomery. Only like all the time.
-Frank
Yeah I've played in the Big War game in SR. The Lazarus character fought in the Euro Wars, the CAS vs. Aztlan & the Tir, One against the JIS in China, North Korea, and Vietnam, and another one in Cuba against the Aztlan again. Lazarus was SF, Force Recon CASMC, as were the other PC's but we played out their early careers, well two PC's early careers, in a three session prelude when they were in the Fleet as grunts in a MEU/SOC.
We did it mostly to form the bond that the two characters had. We did a small part of a session with them going through Boot Camp. Made some rolls to see how they did and what not, stuff like that. It was pretty cool because they could actually had Sea Stories like about the time the one character got handcuffed to a woman on a beach in Ibiza who only spoke French. Happened after a wicked night of party and a botched Body roll.
Actually something like a Big War campaign is going to have more rping then anything else if you're not playing SF. Shadowrun is basically set up for SF like others have already pointed out. But you can go big and play Generals, Politicos, Corporate Peeps who send people to war. There it's pretty much rping and if roll it would be social based skill and CHA checks.
On the other hand you can play life as a grunt which means it can get pretty boring most of the time. However you still have to go out on patrols, help set up an infrastructure if you're peacekeeping, all kinds of scenarios in that one.
We did it mostly to form the bond that the two characters had. We did a small part of a session with them going through Boot Camp. Made some rolls to see how they did and what not, stuff like that. It was pretty cool because they could actually had Sea Stories like about the time the one character got handcuffed to a woman on a beach in Ibiza who only spoke French. Happened after a wicked night of party and a botched Body roll.
Actually something like a Big War campaign is going to have more rping then anything else if you're not playing SF. Shadowrun is basically set up for SF like others have already pointed out. But you can go big and play Generals, Politicos, Corporate Peeps who send people to war. There it's pretty much rping and if roll it would be social based skill and CHA checks.
On the other hand you can play life as a grunt which means it can get pretty boring most of the time. However you still have to go out on patrols, help set up an infrastructure if you're peacekeeping, all kinds of scenarios in that one.
I've used wars as major campaign aspects, although never the Desert Wars.
In-game, I tend initially to work with the small, at-first-glance isolated incidents. It's entirely up to the characters if they want to try to pull the pieces together to figure out the larger picture before the shit hits the fan. It's a curious point, even in real life, that those caught in the middle of wars rarely have a wider sense of what is going on.
In character background, one PC I've GMed discovered in-game that he was the bastard son of a soldier who'd been left for dead on the battlefield, and who had decided to leave it that way.
One PC I've played was a mercenary on medical leave: the campaign began in the standard Seattle setting and war stayed comfortably distant in that one. None of the PCs I've GMed were ever in the military ... voluntarily. (If you ever want to see really pissed-off PCs, conscript them.)
In-game, I tend initially to work with the small, at-first-glance isolated incidents. It's entirely up to the characters if they want to try to pull the pieces together to figure out the larger picture before the shit hits the fan. It's a curious point, even in real life, that those caught in the middle of wars rarely have a wider sense of what is going on.
In character background, one PC I've GMed discovered in-game that he was the bastard son of a soldier who'd been left for dead on the battlefield, and who had decided to leave it that way.
One PC I've played was a mercenary on medical leave: the campaign began in the standard Seattle setting and war stayed comfortably distant in that one. None of the PCs I've GMed were ever in the military ... voluntarily. (If you ever want to see really pissed-off PCs, conscript them.)
Okay, so where can we find the answers to the big questions, namely:
1. Do you need a SIN to enlist.
2. Do they allow combat cyberware in recruits.
3. Can I get an Officer's Commission if I've Initiated.
4. Do I finally get to use my Pilot (Anthroform) skill?
etc.
I mean, is there a sourcebook anywhere that covers these? I can't remember reading about them anywhere...
1. Do you need a SIN to enlist.
2. Do they allow combat cyberware in recruits.
3. Can I get an Officer's Commission if I've Initiated.
4. Do I finally get to use my Pilot (Anthroform) skill?
etc.
I mean, is there a sourcebook anywhere that covers these? I can't remember reading about them anywhere...
( 1 ) Yep, if you don't have a SIN then you're not a person, and only people can enlist. However if you don't mind getting your hands dirty I'm sure they can find something for you to do, and if you're lucky enough to live they might even issue you a SIN at the end of your contract. (Don't hold your breath though, most of the time they just re-up you until you die or desert.)
( 2 ) I don't see why not, but if you don't want thrown in with the SINless dogs you'd best make sure that all of your permits are in order. Oh, unless you are going in for life, don't even think about getting anything 'Forbidden'.
( 3 ) Are you saying that you're a Mage and aren't talented enough to be an officer already? What a loser.
( 4 ) Not sure about Third Edition, in Fourth just wait until we can pull the answer out of our ARSEs.
( 2 ) I don't see why not, but if you don't want thrown in with the SINless dogs you'd best make sure that all of your permits are in order. Oh, unless you are going in for life, don't even think about getting anything 'Forbidden'.
( 3 ) Are you saying that you're a Mage and aren't talented enough to be an officer already? What a loser.
( 4 ) Not sure about Third Edition, in Fourth just wait until we can pull the answer out of our ARSEs.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| ( 1 ) Yep, if you don't have a SIN then you're not a person, and only people can enlist. However if you don't mind getting your hands dirty I'm sure they can find something for you to do, and if you're lucky enough to live they might even issue you a SIN at the end of your contract. (Don't hold your breath though, most of the time they just re-up you until you die or desert.) ( 2 ) I don't see why not, but if you don't want thrown in with the SINless dogs you'd best make sure that all of your permits are in order. Oh, unless you are going in for life, don't even think about getting anything 'Forbidden'. |
Who knows, some of them may form things similar to how the french foreign legion used to run (probably a bit mythified* too). We don't care who you were or weren't in the past, you're in the legion now.
*Yeah, I know it's probably not a word, I'm too lazy to check the online dictionaries, but it sums it up.
| QUOTE |
| Who knows, some of them may form things similar to how the french foreign legion used to run (probably a bit mythified* too). We don't care who you were or weren't in the past, you're in the legion now. |
As it is today, it's starting to change : lets say that when you join the foreign legion, if the recruiter notices you're a criminal then he has to report you for possible extradition.
That's of course the theory.
In effect, you dont have or need an identity once you join the legion. After 5 years of services, you are given french nationality and the identity you want.
I doubt that in shadowrun things have changed a lot. Especially with the whole euro wars thing ...
I'll check the France sourcebook if i can, i think there is reference to the foreign legion.
My players tended to get scared around war. (when dumped in). Unless your GM is a softie or you're avoiding heavy combat it's a dengerous life when weaponry capable of vaporizing you is flying all over the place.
I guess in SR4 that wouldn't be quite so bad since you can just burn edge to miraculously survive.
On the issue of big battles you could try using a computer to automate a lot of stuff. You rolling for forty guys shooting at 20 tanks would take a long time. But a comp could do it really fast.
Still I like having the runners operating largely independently. (for example they're hired to take out an enemy position or defend something. Or get supplies moved from point A to point B.
This isn't far out there at all. Semi independed mercenaries are a huge part of the SR military scene (at least back in the fields of fire days). And there are lots of war. Recently the tir was fighting with californa for instance.
And there is always Desert Wars (the corps fighting out in the Sahara as part reality show, part testing ground, and part one upmanship).
And it sounds like a lot of africa is still at war. I wouldn't be surprised to find that much of south america is a warzone either.
I guess in SR4 that wouldn't be quite so bad since you can just burn edge to miraculously survive.
On the issue of big battles you could try using a computer to automate a lot of stuff. You rolling for forty guys shooting at 20 tanks would take a long time. But a comp could do it really fast.
Still I like having the runners operating largely independently. (for example they're hired to take out an enemy position or defend something. Or get supplies moved from point A to point B.
This isn't far out there at all. Semi independed mercenaries are a huge part of the SR military scene (at least back in the fields of fire days). And there are lots of war. Recently the tir was fighting with californa for instance.
And there is always Desert Wars (the corps fighting out in the Sahara as part reality show, part testing ground, and part one upmanship).
And it sounds like a lot of africa is still at war. I wouldn't be surprised to find that much of south america is a warzone either.
...RIS participants beware the Bovine drop platform is in geosynch over Europe.
[ Spoiler ]
Yeah, the French Foreign Leigon is extremely badass. I heard they try to provide beer and wine at lunch! I can just imagine some Leigonnaire commiting acts of incredible violence and then sipping some wine. Very Conan-esque.
Big War in SR... Well with magic and summoning spirits, you may get a scene like this... Enjoy! 
... 
--Who Watches the Watchmen?
--Who Watches the Watchmen?
Basically if I were to run a war campaign in SR I'd take a "screw cannon" approach and assume something BIG and VERY BAD is going on. Go crazy cyberpunk over the top if you want to... I'm not feeling that creative at the moment though so here is one idea. Set the game in 2975 Relations between the CAS and Azlan have deteriorated into a shooting war Denver got nuked right off the bat, but the war has remained largely conventional since then with only a few small nukes being used against large troop formations. the PC's are grunts stationed on Firebase ladybird (tour of duty reference for everyone) when a major Azzie offensive shifts the front line about 100 or so KM away from them. The base is under constant attack and their CO breaks them into platoon-sized teams to try and make it back to friendly lines while doing as much damage as they can in the process. They get back in time to witness a tank battle that makes Kusrk look like a carnival shooting gallery, maybe they can be in the right place at the right time to make some pivotal contribution.
...I'm kinda doing that (screwing with canon) with regard to the Balkans in RiS
I took a page from someone else's campaign way, way back (forgot who though) and had the CAS hit Aztlan, and get back most of occupied Texas in a old-style tank army battle, with the runner team caught between the clashing armies when the war started when they were doing an extraction there. Conventional war, Ares keeping Aztechnology in check, and the armies slugging it out, with CAS keeping most of their magical assets in defensive rles, and letting the artillery, tanks and airforce do the nasty work (i.e. make sure no one takes magical control of your commanders, take out spirits, and use massive firepower on the area you suspect mages in).
In my current campaign, the relations between Aztlan and the CAS are "armistice" level, so the borders are tense, but no major war.
In my current campaign, the relations between Aztlan and the CAS are "armistice" level, so the borders are tense, but no major war.
..well the RiS team got their first taste of life in Occupied Croatia.
[ Spoiler ]
Erm, they didn't hire a local guide? Or make contact with someone who would hopefully friendly (or just bribable) before going in? They just crossed the border and started asking random questions to an innkeeper? They didn't have a low signature surveillance drone up in the sky, watching out for stuff moving in on them?
Are you sure that your vision of the world has been sufficiently conveyed to the players? It sounds more like they were expecting the innkeeper to catch them up on local rumors and give them directions to the dungeon.
Are you sure that your vision of the world has been sufficiently conveyed to the players? It sounds more like they were expecting the innkeeper to catch them up on local rumors and give them directions to the dungeon.
...they do know about the setting for in the "pre-launch" meeting, I gave a rundown on the European political scene so they knew where things were at and that this is a very dangerous campaign. We have had a few long breaks so that may have contributed to a memory lapse here and there, however I do a refresher at the beginning of each session so the players know where things are at. I also do a recap of the previous session (stayed up until nearly 7 this morning), from which I prepare notes and the next "refresher".
I also had NPCs advise them of the dangers on several occasions, particularly when they met up with the MET2000 contact of the team's Weapons Specialist who had just made it out of Croatia after performing some recon. They were warned by the contact of their Dr Nowaks to be careful for both the Occupation force and the Resistance could be equally as dangerous, and that once they crossed the border thy would be on their own as the Serbs have been interfering with communications in and out of the country. Another officer mentioned that they (MET2000) had sent recon drones in but lost contact with them shortly after they crossed the frontier.
In spite of this the team did go in a bit headstrong and overconfident.
As to drones, unfortunately the team's rigger bailed (when the player did for RL family reasons) before they left the UK. As nobody else wanted to deal with the vehicle rules or change characters, they have no rigger. As I mentioned in other posts, I usually do not attach NPCs to a team for the long term.
They do have a fairly good vehicle that blends in pretty well and, as seen in the escape from the inn, more than sufficient firepower. The mission was not a failure in that the decker was able to retrieve some useful data before having to jack out.
Following this, they realised the gravity of their situation and will be approaching things more cautiously.
I agree, finding a local guide would be a good thing and one of the characters does have a contact currently in the area if he decides to ring him up.
Unfortunately I can't give out any spoilers as to what's down the road.
I also had NPCs advise them of the dangers on several occasions, particularly when they met up with the MET2000 contact of the team's Weapons Specialist who had just made it out of Croatia after performing some recon. They were warned by the contact of their Dr Nowaks to be careful for both the Occupation force and the Resistance could be equally as dangerous, and that once they crossed the border thy would be on their own as the Serbs have been interfering with communications in and out of the country. Another officer mentioned that they (MET2000) had sent recon drones in but lost contact with them shortly after they crossed the frontier.
In spite of this the team did go in a bit headstrong and overconfident.
As to drones, unfortunately the team's rigger bailed (when the player did for RL family reasons) before they left the UK. As nobody else wanted to deal with the vehicle rules or change characters, they have no rigger. As I mentioned in other posts, I usually do not attach NPCs to a team for the long term.
They do have a fairly good vehicle that blends in pretty well and, as seen in the escape from the inn, more than sufficient firepower. The mission was not a failure in that the decker was able to retrieve some useful data before having to jack out.
Following this, they realised the gravity of their situation and will be approaching things more cautiously.
I agree, finding a local guide would be a good thing and one of the characters does have a contact currently in the area if he decides to ring him up.
Unfortunately I can't give out any spoilers as to what's down the road.
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