I keep seeing character build discussions saying that an Edge of 4 or 5 is a must, but I'm a little hazy on how useful it is. Assuming the Long Shot rule is houseruled out, wouldn't it be better to spend the BP on, say Reaction, than Edge?

If you have a character with a large dicepool edge becomes devastating. If you have 5 edge it can also be used to increase small dicepools where success is necessary. The 6 again rule is also very nice if you get lucky. Edge should be used whenever success is most necessary. If you ever come across insane odds a 5 edge can really help the issue to resolve in your favor. Another nice thing about Edge during character gen is that it does not count towards the limit towards attribute BP being half of the total BP built for the character. Remember that edge can also be used to negate a glitch or lessen a critical glitch to a glitch. It can allow you to go first in the initiative order or give you another IP pass.

That is everything I can think of off the top of my edge. Edge is very worth it. I don't think the Long Shot rule comes up enough for me to even care it being houseruled away.

I guess it depends if you liked karma pool from SR3. =) The Long Shot rule is the LAST thing I'd use it for.

Why would you house rule long shots out?

Edge is definitely worth it. Consider the Edge 6 human. The character isn't even maxed out in Edge, but gets to add six dice to six different roles each session, and have their sixes explode. That's a huge advantage by itself. Then there are all the other uses for Edge, like spending a point to go first automatically.

Ok a couple things. First often edge doesn't refresh every session, though if it does that makes it more important.

Secondly the longshot thing was discussed in another thread. The gist being that someone could take an already impossible shot, and then throw "bypass 16 points of armor" and +4 damage and whatnot and still roll 8 exploding die.

However that doesn't come up often, so most GMs are just best hoping it doesn't come up and giving an offending player the "I could have a dropbear land on you right now" look, and hopefully they'll drop the bypass armor bit or whatnot.

Anyway Eleazar is right. You're edge doesn't count against your stats. So you aren't comparing it to reaction. You're comparing it to a couple points in a skill group. What it provides you with is the ability to make things work when you need them to happen.

Some things almost require edge, like some of the higher end spirit binding and hacking stuff. Unless you're also a hacker adept or something you often just don't have the die pool you need to pull stuff off.

And sometimes you just NEED to have a roll go your way or a glitch not happen.

Anyway I don't think you HAVE to have edge 4 or 5 but I think it is an option you should seriously consider, especially if you are playing a mundane.

I can't see any reason to play a character with an Edge of less than 5.

Aside from the longshot thing, the benefit of exploding 6's can't be overstated. Suddenly, you blow the probability curve straight out of the water. I've scored 14 successes on a base two-die pool by spending Edge.

Having a high Edge doesn't necessarily mean you have to sacrifice a lot. Mr. Lucky, my sam, has all his bases covered. Except for technical skills, which I left out for amusing roleplay purposes, there wasn't much more he needs.

As Eleazar said, Edge is flat out awesome when added to an already large dice pool. The exploding sixes alone can work miracles. Hell, even with my Awakened characters I often initiate once or twice and then work on bolstering my Edge rather than immediately try to raise my Magic to 6+. Remember, hits from the use of Edge dice are not limited by the Force of the spell being cast, so a good sized pool can let you cast high drain spells at safer Force levels without losing too much in the way of effectiveness. Not to mention, having a hefty Edge pool in your back pocket can really save your bacon when the GM rolls a ridiculous number of hits for that Spirit of Man you're binding...

Edge saves lives.

My players use the rerolling failures very often. When you have a big Resistance pool it often reduces some pretty serious wounds to 1 or 2 boxes.

they have in the region of 3-5. As long as all the PCs are in the same ball park it is good.
but edge 1-2 I'd say was very silly.

I was never a big fan of Karma Pools in the previous editions, and I'm not really that keen on Edge in this one. I prefer to build solid, well-rounded characters who can live up to their specialty and title, not someone who has to rely on get-out-of-jail-free cards on a regular basis to do... well.. anything.

Edge of 2 or 3 is plenty of me and my playstyle. If it takes more than that to get a job done, I and my team screwed up bad to begin with and deserve everything that happens as a result. Complications are the spice of life. Keeps you on your toes, too.

The problem is when you build solid, well-rounded characters who can live up to their specialty and titles, while still keeping a high Edge. I daresay that all of the characters mentioned here have all their bases covered, and still maintain an Edge of 5 or higher. Mr. Lucky is the most extreme example, as he's got everything covered well enough to muddle through, while being a god at pistols. (28 exploding dice for pistols.... really scary to see in action.)

I'm not in it to min/max or throw as many hits as possible. I'm there to have fun without having to twink out a rather cheesy mechanic in actual gameplay (as opposed to just theorizing around here). As I said before, I never liked Karma Pools and I don't care for Edge. Think they're both really poor additions to the game as a whole.

I'm not saying Edge sucks. I'm saying it sucks to have Edge.

Honestly, I think it hinders a GM who normally "watches" out for his players. I mean, in both DnD and SR, while I try to stay close to the feel of the specific genre, I also play with close friends and the reality of permanent death in-game, really isn't there. I mean, there are plenty of tense moments, and probably for the last 10 years, I start about every session asking who I am going to kill today, but that rarely happens.

And if it does, well, we figure out a way out of it, unless of course, that player decides he wants to roll a new character.

So, edge kinda does that on the side, allowing the GM to be as brutal as he/she wants, but gives the player an "out", just in case.

Granted, my players usually only use edge to get the extra boost and exploding dice, go first in initiative, get an extra IP or reroll failures...and usually only when they really want to add some flare to something...

I think there are several ways to incorporate edge into a GMs style...

From a metagaming point of view, Edge is basically a Legal Cheat Code mechanic. Didn't want to die and want a free life? Edge. Having trouble defeating that end boss and want some "power ups"? Edge. Crap, fragged up that last move and want to reload the game to try again? Edge.

Luck is already personified by the use of dice rolls. Edge isn't Luck. It isn't Skill. It isn't even Karma. It's just... Cheat Code.

And I don't much care for using cheat codes. It's a necessary evil in the game now, though, so a few points are unavoidable but the main point remains. Just not a fan of that type of mechanic. At all.

Well, as you said prior, if you think you don't want to 'cheat', then you simply play smarter.

Or, just don't use edge at all in your games if you don't like it. I mean, looking at the mechanics, nothing is broken by choosing not to use it. You simply get a few more BP to put in other skills, contacts or maybe some attributes...who knows?

I think it "could" be used as a cheat code, but I also think that depends on your GM, so don't fire out a blanket statement that Edge is only this or only that...if your GM is a robot that only works "strictly by the RAW" AND you have players that take advantage of every rule to its limits, then yeah, I agree. But by experience, having 4 players that have edge anywhere from 2-6 points, I see edge being used roughly 1-3 times a session...and I refresh edge every 24 hours and sessions normally span a few days at a time...

Wow. I don't see Edge as a "cheat code" at all.

It's not infallible, for one thing. I had a player who spent Edge on a shot, throwing 28 dice total, (minus a couple of penalties that didn't amount to more than -4 or 5) and he still didn't kill the target. Things went south quick there.

Edge is something I like, if only because I like resource management mechanics. I like that you have a certain amount of something that you can invest in things to improve them. I like these mechanics in the short term form (like Edge or old SR dice pools), as well as the long term form (money and Karma). It's nice that a character can push a little harder in an action, put some extra effort in, and get a bit of a bonus. Something like Edge facilitates that idea while placing practical limits on it.

I can understand if you're not into that, different gaming styles and preferences and all that, but I don't really think the "cheat code" comparison holds up.

Luck is not represented by dice rolls. Luck is incorporated via dice rolls, but it's how luck y you are, not how lucky your character is. Playing a lucky character cannot be left to chance. For them to really be lucky, you the player have to be assured of that luck, and when it comes into play.

Edge is neither too powerful nor underpowered. And it certainly isn't a cheat code unless the GM wants it to be.

Longshot tests are the only real problem with edge, and those are only bad when the player wants to be an ass and the GM lets him.

I explained why it's a "cheat code" mechanic earlier. Extra lives, re-doing an action, dismissing critical failures, granting critical successes on nearly impossible actions, etc. Those are all standard "cheat code" operations in games, and they're all doable with Edge. There's also nothing GM-dependant about those actions anymore than any other basic actions; they're all standard uses of Edge in the game.

Remove Edge completely and, lo and behold, the game system works just fine and dandy. It's a legacy mechanic from an equally cheesy mechanic. Luck is already accounted for by the base dice mechanic in the game and -- sorry, PlatonicPimp -- but luck is never assured. But it can be with Edge! Experience is also covered by the Karma advancement system, increasing your skills and attributes, and thus your luck.

Like I said before, I'm not a fan of either it or Karma Pools. I know others are, and I know people don't (want to) see it for what it is. That doesn't change my opinion of it, however. Especially not when the game works perfectly fine without it as even the proponents of it have unwittedly stated in this thread (by how rarely it gets used in their games).

I don't think anyone believe edge is integral. But I and others think it improves gameplay.

It's biggest problem seems to be rationalization actually. Personally I treat it as the weird magicish thing I was back in earthdawn when people actually knew they had it, and knew how to modify it and were cognizant of when they were using it. I consider the SR4 people to be using the same thing, they just aren't as away of it, they just know when they really really want something to happen. Except of course for the great dragons who know enough about it to directly screw with it, and the Elves who remember (and maybe can regen it via the old rituals?).

Obviously that isn't going to float with a lot of people, of course. And that does make it harder to work with the 'totally avoid death" thing, though the protection you get from that in my game is less than others.



In the game I like it because it lets me take off the kid gloves. Screw the old "don't kill them just because of a roll of the dice if they had a good idea" crap from other systems. If you're taking your chances take your chances. They'll lose/use edge which is a form of punishment and I don't have to chose between scrapping their character or watering down/fudging things.

Edge actually allows you to create a more realistic game world. One where lonestar isn't massivley incompetent, and where backup is a reality (if you hit an Azzie subsidiary expect some spirits from the main pyramid to be inbound in not too many combat turns).

...in many ways I have to agree with the good Doctor. I have seen players jump into the thick of things with little forethought, figuring that Edge will have a good chance of pulling the PCs fat from the fire if things don't work. It doesn't make for just more cinematic play, but more like over the top Bruce Willis™ brand Live Free or Die Hard play.

What Hannah did in my example above was truly sick. This is a character who on average would generate a 12 DV with -2 AP just using her regular Unarmed pool. That's still pretty rude when you consider an elephant rifle has a Base DV of 9 (no Hannah's not going to go about punching pachyderms). She may get a really good roll now & then with half or more of her DP turning up as hits or she may only hit for base damage. Like Dr F mentions, the "luck factor" is already built in to the base mechanic.

Remember though that unless you're burning it edge isn't a get out of jail free card. (and GMs typically have some form of additional punishment, such as having to get cloned parts to replace what you lost or something when you burn edge to stay alive).

If you have edge 5 you're only looking at 2-3 more hits a couple times (and edge 8 characters have to sacrifiece so much for it that generally I don't think it'd work out well without longshot abuse). Or a couple early IP passes whatever. It's something, but it won't get you through everything. Also remember that everyone else has edge as well. Just maybe not as much. Prime runners will tend to have about as much though, so it kinda cancels out.

Typically I use edge more with NPCs to enhance flavor, and go easy on it with new groups, but after a bit they're going to start seeing NPCs going first and throwing big dice pools. I finds it allows for good drama.

Oh and finally I like it for letting the players get through the bits I want them to get through. Sometimes a glitch will just result in loss of time more than anything, and I'm glad for a way for them to get out of it that still carries a little sting.

For the OP. The bit about how many extra hits you get is why 1-2 edge is not so good. If you only have edge 2 you'll be able to reroll and do well on tests that your character should have made or avoid glitches, but it won't give you that zip when you need to do well.

Oh and I do think that renewing edge every session can be a bit much. I mette it out a bit slower.

What? That when discussing rules I assume the standard rules of the game are in play? What's the point in discussing something if you dismiss that standard baseline and assume everyone is using houserules pulled out the ass at random to suit their argument?

Making interpretations when necessary might be "house rules out of your ass" for you. Pity, that.

But to counter some of your previous moaning:

I really hate overusing the quote function, so I'll address each without doing so.

Extra Lives: See SR4 p. 68, "Burning Edge." Second point.
Re-Doing Actions: Rerolling failures = you get to attempt the action again = "re-do."
Dismissing Critical Failures: Any game that lets you save progression and reload allows you to do this. It also comes up rarely because critical failures are (rightfully) rare unless you're really poorly skilled.
Critical Success: SR4 p. 68 again. See also p. 59 for the definition of a critical success. Guaranteed success = automatic four hits.

What Dr. Funk gives as "what it can do" is about right. In fact a critical success implies four hits OVER the threshold.

However a couple of those require the permanent burning of edge. So I've never really worried about the crit success thing as it hasn't even remotly come up. I would imagine it would have to entail jumping out of a burning building with your girlfriend in one hand trying to grab onto a power line to slide down.

And burning edge hurts. If you use your extra life you probably get shorted some on karma for this run and have to come up with 15 karma to get it back. That's like 4 sessions of karma down the pipes.

Of course you don't need it if you GM doesn't ever seriously threaten you. I'm guessing (if he's a GM) Dr. Funk is a bit of a softie and so players use edge to walk all over situations. Honestly I think most pre 4th GMs were often that way. I've never lost a character as a player, ever. And generally death was reserved for massive stupidity as opposed to an ever present threat if you didn't stay sharp.

The Doc's interpretation is all according to canon, although he does put a less attractive spin on the Edge rules. Edge is supposed to be used to walk all over situations - if you can. As the GM you can house rule but when you do, you'd do well to make it clear. Remember whatever the PCs can use, so can your NPCs. So even if the PCs shot the NPC villian into overflow so much that his ancestors hurt, the NPC can burn Edge to get out alive.

Actually, that is reserved to Prime Runner NPCs and they burn all Edge... though they can restore points by crippeling other attributes.

Additionally to that...

Huh. I just realised that a side-effect of changing combat and karma pool to Edge is to make skillwires far more powerful.

Neither the SR3 (and older) pools nor SR4 Edge apply to chipped abilities.

However, Edge is a relatively rare use (specifically designed so): but combat pools were used every single combat turn; and specialised PCs would also make frequent use of their respective specialty pools.

Now, apart from the rare uses of Edge, there is no practical difference between a chipped skill and a learned one.

The Expert System in Augmentation allows Edge use for wires. Also, Skillwires have a max rating. So there are a few differences between chips and learned skills.

Yep. Skillwires are "better" than they ever were in many cases, but the emphasis Edge has in the game -- particularly for re-rolling failures -- makes them a lot more risky than natural skill. Which is why they're perfect for all the minor abilities you wish to have while you stick to natural skills for the stuff that really matters. Hackers can also now "hack" into your implants, and someone with Skillwires can easily become a puppet (just takes the uploading of a Personafix-type and voila, instant kill machine). Course that's true of anyone; the character with the Skillwires just becomes whatever kind of instant kill machine the hacker wishes. Skillwires are also maxed out at Skill 5 (which is still quite impressive), but there's no Skillwire Expert System to bump that up even higher now, either. Well, there is, but it doesn't bump them up anymore. Bah. Stupid words.

Anyway, chipped Social skills, for instance, are really, really handy. Especially since there's no limitation on using your Street Cred or Notoriety with them that I'm aware of. Really great for Technical and Vehicle Skills as well, assuming you're not a hacker or rigger. Also fantastic for odd-ball skills you're not likely to use very often, like Parachuting.

It's the main reason Move-By-Wires is going to be the big "must-have" implant for street samurai types after they move out of character creation. At least it should be. Not only do they get every perk Wired Reflexes supplied for the same amount of Essence, but they get those free Skillwires, the Dodge bonus, and the extra Reaction. Sweet, sweet bundle.

For now. Arsenal will doubtlessly be expanding on Skillsofts much like the Cannon Companion did.

As implant options are gone, I hope that program options of any kind are, too - those were about as funny.

A skillwire 5 system has merits, as it allows you to run a total of 10 points, thus running one soft at level 4 and two at level 3. But most people are fine with just running two softs at level 4.

So what? In the old SR 3 system, you could also have accomplished that which is seen as impossible, by rolling the 6's so often that you did succeed at the test. The longshot rules of SR 4 also let you do that, but now, the 6's can't be rerolled if you're in a longshot test. And if you even have to met a Threshold, it becomes as unlikely as it was prior.

You always had the possibility to succeed at a test in SR, if real-world luck was with you.

Not unlikely, impossible. If you have an Edge of 2, and have a Threshold of 3, it's still impossible. Using nWoD as an imperfect example, under that system it's still possible, although more unlikely and with the chance of a critical botch increased.

If the point of a longshot test was to transform the statistically-impossible into the highly unlikely, it failed miserably. There are plenty of other mechanics that would have worked much better, and none of them would have *required* Edge the way SR4 does.

Given that I can count the number of zero-dice pools in my 18-month campaign on one hand, I'd say the long shot thing really isn't a big deal.

I've got about 13 months under my belt and we still haven't had a long shot test attempted...

All the more reason to get rid of them - adding exploding Edge Dice is usally the better solution, and prevents abuse.