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WeaverMount
So I've got some players asking about writing up a tradition. All the spirits seem to be fairly balanced again each other. Materialization vs. Possessions seems to be fairly balanced as well. And the RAW have used every mental stat for drain. Every other paradigm seems to be "I can do anything with magic because I understant X". Does it then fallow that all possible traditions are about equal in power and I should approve any tradition that fits the feel of my game? Any GM out there seen anything really abusive twinks stemming custom traditions, especially with a meta magic or two on them? I person don't see any problems, but in my experience magic in most games get broken easy. Customizable anything by PC/players gets broken easy, and drop bears swarm on customizable magic from greater ranges than sharks smell blood.
Dancer
I think spirits like Task and Guardian are more useful than elementals.
toturi
There are some spirits that are more useful than others. The original ones from the BBB are generally not as useful as the ones in SM(exception of Man). Also if you look carefully, not all Mentors fit all the Traditions, some Mentors give bonuses to spirits that do not exist within certain Traditions. Also by canon, certain traditions - like Islam and Zoroaster are forbidden/restrict Mentor spirits.
MK Ultra
I agree with toturi (make the Khan prowd).

I.e., immagin a posession tradition with Guardian, Guidance, Task, Men and whatever + Channeling, and you get magical skillwires + the cool SoM Any-Spell Optional-Power!

However, besids philosophical restrictions (theurges don´t summon spirits without permission usually, some other traditions don´t use mentor-spirits (or only specific ones), some won´t regularly use combat-spells or mental manipulations or specific meta-techniques) there is one other equalizer and that´s availability.
I.e. you won´t find supplies/lodges/formulae/teachers/ritual-partners as easily for less common traditions. So, if someone comes up with a relativly powerfull tradition, you can balance them a bit by telling the player, that they will have a hard time finding stuff for their paradigm in your game-setting.
Eleazar
For the whatever slot you could put Air Spirits. They seem to be the most helpful of the elementals.
DTFarstar
MK, you mean something like possession Tradition

Combat - Guardian
Detection - Water
Health - Man
Illusion - Guidance
Manipulation - Task

Drain : Willpower + Charisma

?
Because I'm playing that, and you are right. It's an AWESOME combination of spirits when combined with Channeling(first thing I spent karma on). It's on page 42 of SM, the Voodoo Tradition, so it's not even a twinked out player tradition, only way I see to make it better is have it be air or plant instead of water for Detection.

Chris
Buster
QUOTE (Eleazar)
For the whatever slot you could put Air Spirits. They seem to be the most helpful of the elementals.

Why?
Buster
QUOTE (MK Ultra)
...the cool SoM Any-Spell Optional-Power!

Not quite, it has to be a spell you already know.
Buster
But you're right about Task spirits: Any-Tech-Or-Physical-Skill optional-power FTW! It's like having Skillwires with a rating equal to your Magic attribute and with infinite free skillsofts.

Forget a docwagon contract, just summon a task spirit with First Aid and/or Medicine and you're golden.

Need a cyberimplant installed but don't want a free head bomb implant to go with it? Forget the local street doc, just summon a task spirit with Medicine and Cybertechnology.

Need a new ID? Forget trusting your life to a local forger, just summon a task spirit with Forgery.

Need raw materials for binding or enchanting? Just summon a task spirit with Skill (Survival) and Skill (Geology/Botany/etc) (and Psychokinesis if you're a possession tradition) to go get it for you.
Buster
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Jul 25 2007, 07:14 AM)
MK, you mean something like possession Tradition

Combat - Guardian
Detection - Water
Health - Man
Illusion - Guidance
Manipulation - Task

Drain : Willpower + Charisma

?
Because I'm playing that, and you are right. It's an AWESOME combination of spirits when combined with Channeling(first thing I spent karma on). It's on page 42 of SM, the Voodoo Tradition, so it's not even a twinked out player tradition, only way I see to make it better is have it be air or plant instead of water for Detection.

Chris

I've always thought that voodoo was one of the most annoying traditions, but with the new spirits they get, I don't play anything else. So as a powergamer, I can say from my (limited) experience, the traditions are not balanced.

Personally, I don't see any reason why spirits aren't a-la-carte for all traditions. It isn't hard to justify ANY spirit for any tradition. For example, voodoo could just as easily get air or fire spirits as water spirits. Qabbala could just as easily get guardian spirits and guidance spirits as elementals. Just something to keep in mind for SR5...
Sereth
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
only way I see to make it better is have it be air or plant instead of water for Detection.

I would have to modify this statement by removing air as an improvement. Water gives you two additional powers that are not redundant with others powers from spirits on this list, (unlike those powers gained in getting an air elemental) namely binding and weather control, the last of which is unique to this elemental. Plant, however, is tough to give up, primarily due to the Regeneration power you get through invoking (made especially useful in possession traditions). The only other spirit type I'd consider is beast, and that only because of the Paralyzing Howl ability, though I imagine that finding a Barghast and inhabiting him with an ally spirit would be a good way to get the ability if you decide to skip out on beast spirits. Then again, I supose you could always do the same with a wendigo or vampire to get regenerate...

Hmmm...I wonder if there is such a thing as a vampire barghast...
Buster
This might be a good houserule:
With a little thought, you can justify any spirit belonging to any tradition. Therefore when a character learns Summoning, he starts out knowing how to summon Watchers and any 5 spirits. For every additional kind of spirit you want to know how to summon, you can spend 3 BP or 5 karma (just like learning spells). Any tradition can pick any spirit, but traditionally members of certain traditions don't bother learning to summon some spirits. Therefore, the spirits listed for each tradition are what the general population usually picks, but the players are not limited to those spirits.

This should balance traditions perfectly and I can finally ditch the voodoo tradition and this annoying Creole accent.
FrankTrollman
Every spirit has a "selling point". For Water Spirits it's Weather Control, for Task and Guardian spirits it's the amazing Skill power, for plants it's Silence, for Guidance it's Divination, for Air Spirit's it's the highest attack and defense pools in the game.

Earth and Fire fall rather flat actually. Their selling points just don't mechanically matter that much. Earth gets all the powers you need for civillian life withut resorting to optional powers and has the highest strength in the game. Unfortunately, the game fouses in on what you do with Force 5 spirits during runs, not on what you do around the house with Force 2s. Also the lifting and carrying rules are non-functional, so having the strongest spirit is in many cases a disadvantage (in that it might cause the game master to look up what it can supposedly carry - which is less than a donkey despite being stronger than is reasonable). Fire Spirits have the deadliest engulf and a built-in energy aura. They do stupidly more melee damage than anything else in the game. But honestly, I don't grab spirits for their melee damage, I grab them to control the fucking weather - so "most melee damage" is a pretty mediocre prize.

It's not that Earth and Fire don't have a selling point, it's that due to the structure of Shadowrunning (and flaws in the carrying capacity rules) player characters don't usually care about those selling points.

-Frank
Sereth
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
for Task and Guardian spirits it's the amazing Skill power


In regards to this, I was curious, is this treated as a "power" for purposes of endowment?

Also, you mentioned silence as plant's major selling point...this power just doen't strike me as that effective compared to simply using a spirit of man with a silence spell instead. Maybe I missed something though, I don't have the books right here, so let me know if I did.
Particle_Beam
QUOTE
In regards to this, I was curious, is this treated as a "power" for purposes of endowment?
I guess not, because though it is listed in the optional powers listing, it's still only a skill, that can be given instead of a normal optional power.
QUOTE
Also, you mentioned silence as plant's major selling point...this power just doen't strike me as that effective compared to simply using a spirit of man with a silence spell instead. Maybe I missed something though, I don't have the books right here, so let me know if I did.
That can only be done if the summoner does know spellcasting and the silence spell at all. And not everyone has that spell.
Kyrn
Ummm...I'm AFMB for the summer, but how exactly does this magical skillsoft system work? I'm hoping drain plays a big factor, as my Cajun accent is only slightly less awful than my generic "Island" accent.
Kyrn
Actually, the idea of playing a gigantic cowardly Troll houngan from the Carib League is suddenly terrifyingly appealing to me.

"Bombaclate! Dem drones be heading right for us. Run for it boyz!"
Dashifen
QUOTE (Kyrn)
Ummm...I'm AFMB for the summer, but how exactly does this magical skillsoft system work? I'm hoping drain plays a big factor, as my Cajun accent is only slightly less awful than my generic "Island" accent.

I think they mean that you can summon up Task/Guardian spirits with a specific skill that you don't have and then with the Channeling Metamagic, you can "gain" that skill for the duration of the possession. Something like skillwires for a one-at-a-time needed skill.
Vaevictis
IMO, using the skill in that scenario takes up a service -- it is listed as a power after all.

But it's still pretty effective.

It's especially effective if you use it with an ally spirit -- you can buy a new power for 5 karma (or just the skill) and the rating of the skill is set to the spirit's force. You don't get to change it around at will, but still, it's much cheaper than learning the skill normally.
Buster
QUOTE (Sereth)
In regards to this, I was curious, is this treated as a "power" for purposes of endowment?

Yes, the spirit power "Skill" is a spirit power and therefore can be passed via Endowment.
Buster
QUOTE (Sereth)
Also, you mentioned silence as plant's major selling point...this power just doen't strike me as that effective compared to simply using a spirit of man with a silence spell instead. Maybe I missed something though, I don't have the books right here, so let me know if I did.

The difference is that with a spirit of Man, you have to know the Silence spell yourself before the spirit can be given the spell.
Buster
QUOTE (Dashifen)
QUOTE (Kyrn @ Jul 25 2007, 01:50 PM)
Ummm...I'm AFMB for the summer, but how exactly does this magical skillsoft system work?  I'm hoping drain plays a big factor, as my Cajun accent is only slightly less awful than my generic "Island" accent.

I think they mean that you can summon up Task/Guardian spirits with a specific skill that you don't have and then with the Channeling Metamagic, you can "gain" that skill for the duration of the possession. Something like skillwires for a one-at-a-time needed skill.

Also, you don't need Channeling if you just want "someone" to perform the task you need done. Normally you would have skillsofts to become the ultimate jack of all trades, but if you can summon task spirits, you save yourself a lot of money (and a lot of effort) by making your task spirit do the work for you.
Dashifen
QUOTE (Buster)
Also, you don't need Channeling if you just want "someone" to perform the task you need done.

Good point.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Buster)
Yes, the spirit power "Skill" is a spirit power and therefore can be passed via Endowment.

No it's not. SR4 pp 286-290 and SM pp. 98-103 list spirits powers, none of which are Skill. Task Spirits have a unique trait that can be taken in place of an optional power, and specifically describes it as such.

SM p. 98, Task Spirits, Optional Powers: "Skill (a task spirit may be given an additional Technical or Physical skill instead of an optional power)."

That said, someone using Channeling can still have the possessing task spirit use their Technical or Physical skill as a service, but then it's little different than if the task spirit was a materialized spirit instead.
Dashifen
I don't know that I can agree with that. The fact that it's listed under "Optional Powers" for the Task/Guardian spirit indicates to me that it is, in fact, an optional power. The reason it's not listed in the two sections mentioned by Dr. Funk is that all this power does is grant a skill and skills are defined elsewhere.
Ol' Scratch
It specifically states that it's in place of an optional power. That's not a paraphrase in my last post, it's an exact quote.

Diving is listed as a Spirit Power as well, even though it's the same as the metamagic power. So saying "Skill" wasn't listed because skills are taken care of somewhere else in the rules is a pretty weak argument. Same with Dual-Natured, Enhanced Senses, and Magical Guard (Counterspelling) just off the top of my head.

Not that it matters either way. Channeling doesn't give the magician free access to the spirit's powers anyway. They still have to "ask" the spirit to perform them, using up a service (SM pp. 54-55) and is thus in no way different than a materialized spirit.
Dashifen
That's valid, too.

QUOTE ("DFunk")
Not that it matters either way. Channeling doesn't give the magician free access to the spirit's powers anyway. They still have to "ask" the spirit to perform them, using up a service (SM pp. 54-55) and is thus in no way different than a materialized spirit.


Agreed.
Lilt
Still, this adds a lot of options, and allows for crazy-power if you do the whole 'force 12' thing.

With a Casting stat boosting spell, a couple of points of edge spent, and a magic attribute of 6, I could see magicians being able to summon a force 12 spirit. That spirit could have 4 skills, each at 12. Why not Computer, Data Search, Cybercombat, and Hacking?

Sure, they'll have fewer initiative passes than the guys in hot sim (assuming you don't get naturally high initiative passes through AR), and they don't get the +2 dice, but really who cares when their skill is 12 and their initiative is 24 before they roll? They do go first, they do hit harder and they are nigh impossible to kill.

What's that you say? Mage trying the technomancer's turf? Sure, the technomancer can do something similar with sprites. In-fact they'd get the base response rating to match and thus would be awesome in many ways. The thing is that Sprites generally only have 2 or 3 of the 4 classical decking skills, and don't have all the programs.

Give a force 12 task spirit a well-equipped deck and they can do practically any task on the matrix a human could.
Ol' Scratch
Task Spirits can't use the Matrix via augmented reality. They're dual-natured while materialized or possessing, meaning astral perception is on 24/7. Street Magic pp. 23-24 state that it's impossible to use both astral perception and either VR or AR at the same time.

I haven't had a chance to read the Matrix rules in depth yet, so I don't know if there's a non-AR/VR option available to hacking and whatnot. If there is (in which they still suffer a -2 penalty for being dual-natured; the rule negating that penalty seems to have been left behind), I'm sure it has a lot of downsides to it, so that would all be counterproductive to having a genuine hacker along for the ride. Even a significantly less skilled one.
Buster
The Task spirit can possess a person and therefore can access AR and VR all they want.
hyzmarca
There are some logical inconsistencies with the whole one-plane-at-a-time rule. A dual natured being should have difficulty holding purely physical objects, by the rule, since it would be unable to feel anything on the physical plane (on the astral plane, physical objects are immaterial shadows, so tactile sensation cannot carry over).

One workable interpretation is that they can turn off their astral senses with a simple action, but remain astrally active and astrally blind, which actually works with the rules of Astral Perception in the BBB (which explicitly state that it takes a simple action to switch perception between planes).
Particle_Beam
QUOTE (Buster)
The Task spirit can possess a person and therefore can access AR and VR all they want.

No, they can't.

Street Magic, page 102:
QUOTE
Possessing spirits cannot perceive or operate AR or direct neural or cybernetic interfaces, and do not benefit from implants, cyberware, or nanoware that would require active control (i.e.: a spirit can benefit from a vessel’s bone lacing or eye replacement, but cannot activate vision enhancements or a datajack).
Buster
Dammit my hacker spirit just disappeared in a puff of logic.
Big D
Spirit hackers have been covered here before.

They can't use anything DNI--so that means goggles and gloves, or a monitor and keyboard. But for a nasty ally hacker with 4 IP? It's worth the hassle.
Buster
I can't find the rules for tortoise systems, I remember they were -2 on all dice rolls. Is that still the case, does anyone have page numbers?
toturi
I am against Skill as an Power. Other than what the Doc has already said, you do not want to have Skill as a Power because it can be given to your Ally spirit as a Power. Get Ally and get Channelling for Magical skillwires.
Ol' Scratch
Wow. I just tried finding a rule about ally spirits not being able to be used for possession, but there doesn't seem to be one in SR4. The designers of this edition were seriously slacking when it came to forethought or even just looking over the rules of the previous edition to catch obvious loopholes like that.

I understand them wanting to slim the rules down, but leaving such gaping holes in the system is just a horrible design philosophy.
Particle_Beam
You never know what the Errata will bring in.

The fifth errata version of the core rulebook for example did make an end to the infinite spirit summoning loophole.

Perhaps this will be considered too.
WeaverMount
Ok, I've got another silly question. Aside from a good GM what stops people from getting an ally spirit with Endowment, invoking it into a blood spirit, and then having it endow Energy Drain (Essence) on a street sam?
Dancer
The fact that even shadowrunners don't like to mess with blood magic?
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (WeaverMount)
Ok, I've got another silly question. Aside from a good GM what stops people from getting an ally spirit with Endowment, invoking it into a blood spirit, and then having it endow Energy Drain (Essence) on a street sam?

Blood magic is an NPC-only tradition. The only GM (good or bad) that allows it is one that allows them to (keeping in mind that the rules specifically recommend against doing just that). And if they do, that character will have bounties on his head almost immediately (with a good GM) or completely dominate most runs (with a bad GM). Unless the GM is really bad in which case it's just going to be a game of back-and-forth penis-stroking.
toturi
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Jul 25 2007, 10:03 PM)
Ok, I've got another silly question. Aside from a good GM what stops people from getting an ally spirit with Endowment, invoking it into a blood spirit, and then having it endow Energy Drain (Essence) on a street sam?

Blood magic is an NPC-only tradition. The only GM (good or bad) that allows it is one that allows them to (keeping in mind that the rules specifically recommend against doing just that). And if they do, that character will have bounties on his head almost immediately (with a good GM) or completely dominate most runs (with a bad GM). Unless the GM is really bad in which case it's just going to be a game of back-and-forth penis-stroking.

Actually Blood Magic isn't a NPC only tradition, it is one of those "not-recommended for PCs" things, but it is not NPC only like the Toxic Mentors/traditions/etc.
Sereth
Plus the fact that you can't give your ally spirit Endowment because that ability is only gained through invoking. As far as spirit hackers go though, anything but a true form inhabitation gets full functionality from all integrated systems. This means you can get an ally spirit to act as a fully capable hacker for you. More importantly, this means that bug colonies, through use of worker/drone spirits, will very likely be taking over the matrix in short order.
Dancer
QUOTE (toturi)
Actually Blood Magic isn't a NPC only tradition, it is one of those "not-recommended for PCs" things, but it is not NPC only like the Toxic Mentors/traditions/etc.

Leaving aside the rules issue for a moment, if I find the mage I'm working with is into blood magic I'm either quietly sneaking away and pretending I never knew him, or shooting him in the back of the head when he's distracted. Depends on how deeply entangled I am.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (toturi)
I am against Skill as an Power. Other than what the Doc has already said, you do not want to have Skill as a Power because it can be given to your Ally spirit as a Power. Get Ally and get Channelling for Magical skillwires.

You can buy skills for your ally spirit at 5 karma a pop, same as powers, so it's pretty much a wash.
Particle_Beam
However, skills are still skills, and not powers.
toturi
My interpretation of Skill(if I had to interpret it as a Power and not just as a skill) is a Power that when you activate provides "an additional Physical or Technical skill".
Ol' Scratch
The rules are pretty specific. It's only listed in "Optional Power" because the mechanics for granting additional powers to spirits is the same mechanic used to give them said skill. The skill itself, nor the ability to gain one, is a power... and the rules say that with the "instead of an optional power" bit. Which means, you know, instead of an optional power. And in no way can it even remotely be read to be "gives the spirit any Technical or Physical Skill you want whenever you want even after the summoning; just say it and they gain it cause they're that awesome."

Either way, the point remains. 5 Karma will give an Ally Spirit pretty much any skill you want, Task or Guardian Spirit or not. And channeled/possessed or simply materialized, the mechanics work the same way with the spirit performing the task when asked to do so as a service (a moot point with an Ally Spirit).
toturi
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
SM p. 98, Task Spirits, Optional Powers: "Skill (a task spirit may be given an additional Technical or Physical skill instead of an optional power)."

The wording of the Skill becomes unclear only when I try to interpret it as a Power instead, whether you gain any new skill each time you tell the spirit to use that "power" or that skill the "power" provides is fixed at summoning. While I do not think that this is the correct interpretation, I can see how someone might be able to read it as such, which is why I think Skill is simply skill and not a Power.

Certainly, if you interpret Skill as skill, then there is no problem.
Vaevictis
Interesting points with respect to possession traditions and ally spirits, based upon how I read them:

1. Ally spirits are the only spirits that a possession tradition mage can summon that can have materialize.
2. Ally spirits made by a possession tradition mage actually have to select possession as one of their powers if you want them to be able to possess/channel.

And with respect to #1, as if an ally spirit wasn't so important as to be mandatory, they add yet another reason why a possession tradition mage should have one. But at least #2 makes em spend a free power on the ability to possess/channel.
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