Ranneko
Jul 27 2007, 01:00 PM
Hey guys, seems sensible to make a thread like this for Augmentation.
Here is the first one I have found.
Weapon Mounts on page 43.
They are described but no where are their costs/availability/restriction etc listed, at least as far as I can tell.
Ol' Scratch
Jul 27 2007, 01:39 PM
It's sort of hidden in the description. The weapon itself uses a Smart Firing Platform accessory (SR4 p. 311) while the cybernetic mounts themselves are given stats on Augmentation p. 42. Neither of the mounts are available at character creation (Availabilities 16F and 24F).
I'm not really sure what the point of them is, though. They recoil compensation or other type of bonus as far as I can tell. Is giving yourself what's effectively a permanently attached drone with a Forbidden Availability and losing 7-8 Capacity really worth it? I'm just not seeing it. I'd rather have a drone that can do a lot more than make me a walking target anyday of the week. They're usually cheaper, too.
PlatonicPimp
Jul 27 2007, 01:48 PM
Not everything is for runners, dude. Those mounts are for cyberzombie death machines. Your are meant to run from them, not get them.
Marwynn
Jul 27 2007, 01:58 PM
I dunno it's a lot better than my buddy's Troll who strapped a Smart Firing Platform on his back with the express orders of shooting at anything that isn't a recognized friend.
Ingenious, until he accompanied the Face to a meet with the Johnson and walked away...
The wording of the Weapon Mounts section seems to imply the lack of Recoil Compensation.
Ol' Scratch
Jul 27 2007, 01:59 PM
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
Not everything is for runners, dude. Those mounts are for cyberzombie death machines. Your are meant to run from them, not get them. |
They'd benefit just as much from a drone instead of a weapon mount, too. Like cramming a Cyberarm Gryomount in both arms for the same total Capacity as a single perma-drone. They're little better than duct-taping a small drone to your arm or back, slapping on a Skinlink, and calling it a day! Except, again, the whole "drones can do everything plus a whole lot more, for a cheaper price to boot!" bit.
Runners, security, cyberzombies of death; it's equally "useless" to all of them compared to their alternatives.
If they offered something at least interesting, that fact might be different. But not only are they more boring than a drone, they have a limited arc of fire, too.
Buster
Jul 27 2007, 02:12 PM
Wow, the thread was derailed in less than four posts. I think that's a new record.
Ranneko
Jul 27 2007, 02:18 PM
Wow, I must have scrolled over that half a dozen times looking for the detail.
But still the purpose of the thread is errata, so if people find some, putting it here would seem like a good plan.
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 27 2007, 02:32 PM
QUOTE (Synner) |
Regarding your previous question Nanobiomonitors are actually missing a line (for errata). They work exactly like normal biomonitors, but their additional cruch advantage was cut by accident. Add the following sentence to the description:
"Working in tamdem with nanosymbiotes and o-cells, nanobiomonitors also increase the effective Rating of such nanosystems in the user's system by +1." |
That should include the TCS - because you need 2 Hits to stabilize someone, and TCS Level 1 has 1 die. Perhaps, it should extend to all medically used nanite ratings.
Prime Mover
Jul 27 2007, 04:08 PM
QUOTE |
Med-Alert and Guardian Angel Implants |
What book were these from?
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 27 2007, 04:15 PM
Man & Machine...
Yes, they are completly missing from Augmention.
No, there isn't any way to simply implant a medkit.
Prime Mover
Jul 27 2007, 04:28 PM
Thanks Rot , found it was looking in wrong place.
walkir
Jul 27 2007, 04:51 PM
Something I found by reading the rules about cyberware suites and the Zeiss Example:
Shouldn't there be a reduction of capacity used by options in a cyberware suite, too? Or is everything shrunk by the same factor so it doesn't have any effect at all?
While writing, I guess it's the second option.
Even so, I think there should be a reduction (a capacity reduction at least) for add on modules used in a single cybereye (be it per Augmentation or because someone used an ocular drone for the other eye and bought any stuff just for the eye without the drone, as the drone itself can be updated by improved the built-in camera).
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 27 2007, 05:03 PM
Echo location is an interesting implant. However, it lacks any real rules... until one get's the full set to make it Ultrasound.
Aaron
Jul 27 2007, 06:35 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
What exactly is the point of the TCS below Level 2?
It has Level dice at best (most likely less, as it is subject to First Aid modifiers) to score 2 hits and can't use Edge. Yay. |
It's worse than that; a Rating 2 TCS is worse than a Rating 1. The Rating 1 glitches one time in six, but the Rating 2 glitches almost twice as often. True, all Rating 1 glitches are critical glitches, but your mileage with regards to this fact may vary with the cruelty of your GM.
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 27 2007, 06:40 PM
..because you are going to burn Edge, anyway... since you'll bleed dry in both cases.
Ravor
Jul 27 2007, 08:37 PM
Does a ( Rating 1 ) Attention Coprocessor really use the same ammount of Essense as a ( Rating 3 ) Attention Coprocessor?
Ol' Scratch
Jul 27 2007, 08:39 PM
Why not? Several implants have a set Essence cost with only Availability and/or Price being variable with the rating. For this implant, you're just updating the chip, not the connections or impact it has on your system.
jklst14
Jul 27 2007, 11:14 PM
Table on page 113: Voice Mimic entry needs to add "(Rating 1-6)"
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 27 2007, 11:28 PM
QUOTE (p. 72) |
The genetic IDs they ran showed nomatch with anyone else, living or deceased. Vocal training that would remove any residual Japanese accentv. No one would find her now. |
PlatonicPimp
Jul 28 2007, 07:50 PM
There's also a reference to the Javanese military junta on pg. 80.
one of the example bio-drones, the Shiawase Cybertooth Tiger (pg 154), has neither the CAST, Stirrup, orientation goad, or an internal commlink. Not only does this make it impossible to rig, it is also unable to use either it's TRACES or SEIES systems without them.
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 28 2007, 08:07 PM
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
There's also a reference to the Javanese military junta on pg. 80. |
Hey, if it's a Junta from Java...
FrankTrollman
Jul 28 2007, 08:15 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 28 2007, 09:50 PM) | There's also a reference to the Javanese military junta on pg. 80. |
Hey, if it's a Junta from Java... |
There is a junta in Java.
-Frank
PlatonicPimp
Jul 28 2007, 08:31 PM
but it's in reference to a japanacorp and PR. I doubt anyone would care if a japanacorp supported a javanese military junta.
FrankTrollman
Jul 28 2007, 08:40 PM
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
but it's in reference to a japanacorp and PR. I doubt anyone would care if a japanacorp supported a javanese military junta. |
Yakashima spends a lot of time murdering metahumans in Oceania, so it's possible.
-Frank
Synner
Jul 28 2007, 09:11 PM
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
one of the example bio-drones, the Shiawase Cybertooth Tiger (pg 154), has neither the CAST, Stirrup, orientation goad, or an internal commlink. Not only does this make it impossible to rig, it is also unable to use either it's TRACES or SEIES systems without them. |
It was intended to possess a CAST interface - honestly don't know how that slipped by.
FrankTrollman
Jul 29 2007, 07:58 AM
Whoa! Page 128: Essence Holes. I didn't ever notice that creeping in at a late stage of development, but the segregated Essence Holes is a really bad thing that makes the accounting fall apart.
The example doesn't have to change, because of course it doesn't mention different flavors of Essence Holes. But the third paragraph has to go and the first paragraph should have all mention of different flavors of Essence Hole removed.
So currently it says:
QUOTE |
Most augmentations, whether bioware, cyberware, genetech, or nanocybernetics, have an associated Essence Cost. When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an “Essence hole�—a disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants (see Cyberware and Bioware, p. 84, SR4) and her current Essence. This Essence hole never “heals� naturally. It may, however, be used as a “credit� for any new implants of the same type (cyber- or bioware)—simply deduct the Essence hole from the new implant’s Essence cost before applying it to your total. In other words, if you remove one cyberware item that had an Essence Cost of 1, you may install up to Essence Cost 1 of new cyberware without lowering your Essence total. Any cost over 1 would be deducted as normal. Note that a bioware implant would not be able to fill that same hole, however—cyberware only. Essence holes are important when replacing or upgrading implants. If a character replaces an implant with one of a higher grade, the new implant may well have a lower Essence Cost than the old one and the character will develop an Essence hole that she can fill with further augmentations. Likewise, upgrading an implant often increases its Essence Cost—characters might choose to remove another implant to create an Essence hole so she can upgrade her implant without losing more Essence. Note that Essence lost from other sources—addiction, a blood spirit’s Energy Drain power, etc.—does not leave an Essence hole that may be filled up with implants. That Essence is lost for good. [Example] |
It should say:
QUOTE |
Most augmentations, whether bioware, cyberware, genetech, or nanocybernetics, have an associated Essence Cost. When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an “Essence hole�—a disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants (see Cyberware and Bioware, p. 84, SR4) and her current Essence. This Essence hole never “heals� naturally. It may, however, be used as a “credit� for any new implants —only reduce your character's Essence if the new implants would bring your character's total Essence cost to more than your total lost Essence. In other words, if you remove one cyberware item that had an Essence Cost of 1, you may install up to Essence Cost 1 of new cyberware without lowering your Essence total. Any cost over 1 would be deducted as normal.
Essence holes are important when replacing or upgrading implants. If a character replaces an implant with one of a higher grade, the new implant may well have a lower Essence Cost than the old one and the character will develop an Essence hole that she can fill with further augmentations. Likewise, upgrading an implant often increases its Essence Cost—characters might choose to remove another implant to create an Essence hole so she can upgrade her implant without losing more Essence. [Example] |
Seriously, I don't know what the thinking was there - but since Essence Costs are dynamic, and the costs of implants can be halved or normal and flip back and forth during additional surgeries the whole idea of segregated Essence holes is an accounting nightmare and actually way more prone to loop holes than just leaving things dynamic.
-Frank
Catharz Godfoot
Jul 29 2007, 06:58 PM
Frank, are you sure it isn't intentional that a character with 2 Ess in cyber and 1.9 in bio sees his total Ess hole go from 2.95 to 3.7 when he removes .2 of cyber?
FrankTrollman
Jul 29 2007, 07:18 PM
QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot) |
Frank, are you sure it isn't intentional that a character with 2 Ess in cyber and 1.9 in bio sees his total Ess hole go from 2.95 to 3.7 when he removes .2 of cyber? |
As it currently is written, it actually jumps from 2.95 to 3.0 when that .2 of cyberware is removed (.2 Essence holw, plus half of 1.8 plus all of 1.9). The really exciting thing is that if you remove the entire 2.0 worth of Cyber the total cost shoots up to 3.9 (2.0 in Essence hole and the entire 1.9 in Bio Essence goes full price).
And no, I'm damned certain this wasn't intentional. Someone at some point in playtesting had an abstract thought about how it would all be easier or loop-hole closing opr something if Essence holes just sat around in the slot they were originally cut for. But this is not true, and that's ot even what the final Augmentation version says.
It's just a FUBAR situation. I still haven't seen even a single piece of evidence that doing things the intuitive way with just a single hole is either difficult or broken.
-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 29 2007, 07:27 PM
Actually, that's not how it's calculated, concerning Synner at least,... it's not really an Essence hole.
It a Cyber-Essence-Cost-Hole or a Bio-Essence-Cost-Hole.
So the example goes from:
CODE |
Essence 3,05 to Essence 3,05 -Cyberware 2 -Cyberware Hole 2 (Cyberware 1,8) -Bioware 1,9 -Bioware Hole 1,9 (Bioware 1,9) |
Ol' Scratch
Jul 29 2007, 07:29 PM
But it's easier!
Somehow.
Or so we keep being told.
But never explained exactly how or why, despite being told we were.
But it's definitely easier. Without a doubt. And in no way confusing despite cropping up in at least three different threads.
mfb
Jul 29 2007, 07:30 PM
seriously. this crap is confusing the hell out of me. and i'm supposed to be the "more complex is more better" guy.
Ravor
Jul 29 2007, 07:42 PM
Not to mention I have no idea how someone could claim with a straight face that the new Essence Hole rules do not contradict the way Essence costs from implants were handled in the core rulebook considering that we already had Essence Holes, they just weren't named as such.
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 29 2007, 07:43 PM
Voice Mask is listed under Eyeware on p. 166. It sould be Headware.
Echolocation is listed under Basic Bioware. It should be Cultured Bioware since it is neural.
WearzManySkins
Jul 30 2007, 02:25 PM
Page 65 Gills
Gills: A pair of gills is implanted in the user right above the
lungs. The recipient can now breathe water and air, but due to the
reduced size of the gills, water breathing is less efficient. The recipient
can no longer drown, but suffers a –2 dice pool modifier to tests
determining when Fatigue damage sets in when breathing water. Gill
efficiency can be improved at the cost of lung reduction. At the first
level of improvement, the penalty for water-breathing is reduced to
–1 die, but the user now suffers a –1 penalty to these tests in air. The
second level of improvement removes all water-breathing penalties,
but the lung volume has now been reduced enough to cause a –2
dice penalty. All levels of gills are compatible with extended volume,
but the extended volume benefits still only apply when the user is
breathing air. All levels of gills have the same cost and essence cost.
It talks about levels of gills, but only one level of gills is given the stats for?
Eryk the Red
Jul 30 2007, 02:28 PM
It says right in the text there that all levels of gills have the same money and essence cost. It's just a choice of whether you want level one or level two gills, since there's an added penalty for level 2.
Jaid
Jul 30 2007, 05:20 PM
QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
It says right in the text there that all levels of gills have the same money and essence cost. It's just a choice of whether you want level one or level two gills, since there's an added penalty for level 2. |
actually, there's 3 levels of gills... the ones that give -2 in water, the ones that give -1 everywhere, and the ones that give -2 out of the water.
hobgoblin
Jul 30 2007, 05:22 PM
i wonder, whats the effect of extended volume (dont have the book)? if it adds dice to the fatigue test, the combo may well balance out, turning the user into some kind of amphibian...
Rotbart van Dainig
Jul 30 2007, 05:48 PM
Indeed.
The Jopp
Aug 11 2007, 05:03 AM
The Ultrasound Sensor (Headware) from SR4 (page:331 core book) is missing in the Cyberware Table (Headware) section (Page 165 Augmentation).
EDIT:
Ignore me, im blind
JesterX
Aug 15 2007, 09:15 PM
The lifestyle cost adjustement for the Digester Endosont Symbiont is missing...
Since you have to eat only 50% less, it should impact your lifestyle cost as the other eating implants/genetechs/biowares do
WearzManySkins
Sep 1 2007, 10:09 PM
Metaposuer page 90 has a description of what it does, but there is no listing for the costs, availability essence, and treatment time.
venenum
Sep 2 2007, 02:02 AM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
No, there isn't any way to simply implant a medkit. |
Wrong. That symbiot thingie, is a like a medkit right, kinda sleep deprive, makes evy argument plausible.
James McMurray
Sep 2 2007, 02:41 AM
Is there a mechanical reason I'm missing for a rating 1 encephalon to give +1 to Logic-based Active and Matrix skill checks in exchange for 0.75 essence and 30,000:nuyen:, when the genetech PuSHeD gives +1 to all logic-linked skill tests for 0.1 essence and 15,000:nuyen:?
Rating 2 jumps to 1.5 essence and 75,000:nuyen: and all it adds is an extra die for Cracking and Electronics tests while using AR or VR.
It just seems like either Encephalons got the shaft or I'm missing something (perhaps something that was supposed to be in Arsenal?). If it's meant to be janky because it's old tech, like Wired Reflexes 3, that's cool too.
Rotbart van Dainig
Sep 2 2007, 08:36 AM
QUOTE (venenum) |
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 27 2007, 11:15 AM) | No, there isn't any way to simply implant a medkit. |
Wrong. That symbiot thingie, is a like a medkit right, kinda sleep deprive, makes evy argument plausible.
|
No. Neither by rules nor by effects. But htat doesn't matter: A Nanite Hive is allowed to support any kind of Nanites. So after injecting those of the Saviour Medkit, you are good to go.
Synner
Sep 2 2007, 12:02 PM
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Sep 2 2007, 02:41 AM) |
Is there a mechanical reason I'm missing for a rating 1 encephalon to give +1 to Logic-based Active and Matrix skill checks in exchange for 0.75 essence and 30,000:nuyen:, when the genetech PuSHeD gives +1 to all logic-linked skill tests for 0.1 essence and 15,000:nuyen:?
Rating 2 jumps to 1.5 essence and 75,000:nuyen: and all it adds is an extra die for Cracking and Electronics tests while using AR or VR.
It just seems like either Encephalons got the shaft or I'm missing something (perhaps something that was supposed to be in Arsenal?). If it's meant to be janky because it's old tech, like Wired Reflexes 3, that's cool too. |
It's meant to be janky old thing. But also you have to take into consideration that aside from implantation at chargen Genetech has another big downside compared to bio and cyberenhancement - time in the vat. Yeah you get comparatively cheaper bonii but it costs you not only time to install but the income you're missing out on while out of commission...
That seems like an odd balance mechanism for a game. Telling someone he can't play tonight because the GM decided his character is still in the vat is stupid.
Doesn't mean you can't leave the stats as is, because having strictly worse gear does not hurt anyone as long as you're not forced to use it.
Rotbart van Dainig
Sep 2 2007, 01:42 PM
And I seem to have missed the part that makes the Encephalon incompatible with PuSHeD.
James McMurray
Sep 2 2007, 01:58 PM
It is compatible, just not very comparable.
Synner
Sep 2 2007, 03:57 PM
QUOTE (Sma @ Sep 2 2007, 12:22 PM) |
That seems like an odd balance mechanism for a game. Telling someone he can't play tonight because the GM decided his character is still in the vat is stupid. |
Huh?
When you go in for to have an implant and you have the choice between bioware and cyberware, one deciding factor in your choice is affordability, the other is Essence, and a final (and often very minor) factor is implantation and recovery time. Though it often goes unnoticed in play, even if you have the cash and the Essence, that final element will be the one that generally stops you from getting wired reflexes or synaptic boosters implanted during an adventure (since you'll be recovering from surgical damage for at least 3-4 days).
Compared to the other comparable types of implantation, genetech is slightly more expensive in terms of nuyen cost (especially if you consider the treatment cost includes the vat/hospitalization time), it is much less expensive in terms of Essence cost, but its main drawback is that you are put out of commission for several weeks (as opposed to several days) - which is why it's suggested that you get multiple treatments done at once since therapy times are not cumulative.
If you chose to have your character undertake PuSHeD therapy during a campaign, you know going in that the character will be in a vat for a couple of weeks at least and that should factor in to your decision to get geneware or not - the GM has nothing to do with it.
Rotbart van Dainig
Sep 2 2007, 04:45 PM
Actually, as Genetech doesn't come in grades, it's pretty expensive, Essence-wise.