Hey there Dumpshock, nice to meet you all. I found out about Shadowrun when I read through the entirety of the 4th edition rulebook in between games of Magic at my local gaming store, and it seemed really cool. By now I've run a couple games of Shadowrun (and big thanks here to Aaron Pavao on these forums, we ran his Ping Time and Born to Die adventures, pavao.org/shadowrun), converting my old D&D group, but I still have a few questions, mostly with things that still make no sense to any of us, and the fact that we all used to play D&D might have something to do with it. But here's a few things I was hoping you all could help me understand:
1. Initiative Passes.
As soon as I read about this, it seemed clearly, blatantly broken all to hell. At first we played that instead of not being able to fire more than X times per action phase, you can't fire more than X times in a whole round of combat (that is, IP 1-4). But I went and reread the rules, and that's not what it says. It does say quite clearly that you can fire your pistol twice per initiative pass. Why would someone with faster reflexes be able to pull a mental (smartlinked) trigger more times in three seconds? Beats me. Here's my favorite part: full auto firing mode basically means you hold down the trigger and go. But if you have faster reflexes, you can hold down the trigger better, or faster, or something! Because you can fire one full auto burst per initiative pass! And as soon as the party mage learns about the improve reflexes spell, he's going to be nuking enemies faster than you can say 10d6 fireball, because having better reflexes lets your mind compute complex arcane formulae, too!
Most characters have one initiative pass. And none of these characters stand even a shadow of a chance against characters with four initiative passes. Could someone please tell me what's going on here?
2. Reality Filter.
It says that matrix nodes have their own filters programmed in, like a medieval setting or a high-techy setting or whatever. It's cool stuff. Now, when you use your reality filter program, if your setting beats their setting, you get a response bonus, and if theirs beats yours, you lose response. But what if you don't have a reality filter? Do you automatically lose the response, or is reality filter just a mostly useless program? Also, if you do manage to override a node's setting with your own, does everyone else on the node see your setting take over as well?
3. Registering Sprites.
There's no downside to it. Really, there's not. Every technomancer should be walking around with their charisma number of registered sprites, each with approximately infinity services left, because reregistering can go on ad infinitum, right?
4. Copy Protection.
Here's a good question. Obviously, pirated programs and so forth are the norm, it says so quite clearly. But my question, then, is why does it include prices for these programs? And a better question, why isn't every person out there walking around with all Rating 6 programs running on their commlink that they downloaded from Bittorrent? Or why can't one person in a shadowrunning team buy a program and then give it to all his buddies? Or why can't a single hacker program a rating six something and then spread it to his team and everyone else on the matrix for free?
5. DocWagon.
I think DocWagon is cool, but there's not enough rules about it to make it useful. For starters, when is DocWagon summoned? When a person's physical track becomes full? Then the person will be dead within the minute, not nearly enough time for DocWagon to get there and stabilize them. Do the tags or whatever that DocWagon puts into them upon signing up make wireless noise that security at the team's next job could pick up? If so, that would make DocWagon nearly useless for shadowrunners. Also, it says that resuscitation and HTR service carries high prices, but it doesn't say what those prices are, so those freebies that you get from having a higher level contract don't really do much. Does DocWagon provide a discount on long-term recovery? Do they ask questions, i.e. would they treat a customer (runner) who is still hot from a job without turning him over to Lone Star?
6. Smartlink.
It says that with smartlink you can stick your gun around a corner and see what's there and shoot at it, all without exposing more than your hand. It seems like this would make characters, y'know, unfairly invincible in a firefight. Also, the rules for cover in general have me a bit confounded. Say you're in a T hallway, and on your pass you run from the left side of the T to the right side of the T, so you start and end your movement behind very solid walls, but in between you shoot the poor saps down the long end of the T. Do they have any way to shoot back at you? After all, at any point they could act, you're behind total cover.
I've gotta say, the Shadowrun book really likes to spread rules around, so to track down everything that's going on in a firefight you have to look up rules for ammo, firing modes, guns, skills, modifiers, armor, damage, et cetera, et cetera, and they're all scattered about. But also, and this is the important bit, I am really liking Shadowrun, and so is the rest of my group, even if we still don't know what, technically, we are doing. Sorry I made my questions so long, but to anyone who takes the time to help me out, thank you!
Full Version: Questions from a new running team
| QUOTE (Gelare @ Jul 31 2007, 04:42 PM) |
| 1. Initiative Passes. Why would someone with faster reflexes be able to pull a mental (smartlinked) trigger more times in three seconds? |
Haven't read your whole post, but just a quick note: SmartLinks don't interface with the trigger. You still have to pull the trigger on the gun. Can you imagine if the trigger was part of the interface and got hacked. Heh. Yeah.
Cyberimplant weapons, though, are fired through a direct neural connection.
As usual, I rest easy knowing that if anything I say here is incorrect that some one will soon pounce upon and and beat it to death, eventually bringing the Truth™ to bear and enlightening everyone. =)
Welcome to Dumpshock.
Welcome aboard, I'm glad you are enjoying the game.
| QUOTE |
| 1. Initiative Passes. As soon as I read about this, it seemed clearly, blatantly broken all to hell. At first we played that instead of not being able to fire more than X times per action phase, you can't fire more than X times in a whole round of combat (that is, IP 1-4). But I went and reread the rules, and that's not what it says. It does say quite clearly that you can fire your pistol twice per initiative pass. Why would someone with faster reflexes be able to pull a mental (smartlinked) trigger more times in three seconds? |
First off: mechanically people with more IPs have a tendency to beat the crap out of people who don't. Take one action to snag cover and perhaps take full defense, and the remaining actiosn to blow the snot out of enemies - it's just plain good times.
As to the Rate of Fire question - characters in Shadowrun have actually an extremely low rate of fire. In 3 seconds a normal person fires just twice on a semi-automatic pistol. In 3 seconds of full auto a man with a sub machine gun squeezes off only 10 bullets - equivalent to a cycle rate of only 200 per minute. A modern sub machine gun like tthe famous Mini Uzi advertises a cycle rate of 900 (!) per minute.
In short, even with 4 IPs, characters still spend a significant portion of each combat round with their fingers off the trigger. The game makes the assumption that people just aren't taking shots that have no real chance of hitting - which is inaccurate as far as real combat goes but saves a lot of time in terms of game resolution. If we wanted to be realistic about it, people with only one Initiative Pass should be throwing out about four times as many bullets and having them sail off harmlessly into space while characters with more IPs have the speed modifications required to actually aim all those extra bullets. But that's a level of realism that's kind of a pain in the ass and we don't usually do it.
| QUOTE |
| 2. Reality Filter. It says that matrix nodes have their own filters programmed in, like a medieval setting or a high-techy setting or whatever. It's cool stuff. Now, when you use your reality filter program, if your setting beats their setting, you get a response bonus, and if theirs beats yours, you lose response. But what if you don't have a reality filter? |
If you don't have a Reality Filter nothing happens. You only take the penalty if you try to make the node conform to your expectations and then it doesn't.
| QUOTE |
| 3. Registering Sprites. There's no downside to it. Really, there's not. Every technomancer should be walking around with their charisma number of registered sprites, each with approximately infinity services left, because reregistering can go on ad infinitum, right? |
Time is a cost. Time to Register, time to recover from Fading. It adds up. I mean, similarly there's no downside to working at Taco Temple and getting extra money that you can invest in additional gadgets. So really, every character should have infinite equipment because there's no limit to how long they can spend working at some crap job... right?
| QUOTE |
| 4. Copy Protection. Here's a good question. Obviously, pirated programs and so forth are the norm, it says so quite clearly. But my question, then, is why does it include prices for these programs? And a better question, why isn't every person out there walking around with all Rating 6 programs running on their commlink that they downloaded from Bittorrent? |
Because while Software Piracy is normal, it is also normal for the World Recording Industry Army to send ninja assassins to your house if they catch you. Software Piracy can be done, but it's non-trivial and if you don't have the Software skills you won't be able to get it to work without alerting the extraterritorial popos.
-Frank
I'll try to answer the copyright questions.
Average citizens don't copy programs for the same reason people don't now. It's illegal and corp types don't want a stain on their record because they want to remain wageslaves.
One houserule states that copy protection in 2070 is adaptive which means you only get one free copy per net hit. Therefore you need to spend a bunch of time copying a file for each of your buddies. Also, the copy protection may have some sort of data bomb when you glitch that makes a call to the local Lone Star.
If you wrote the program yourself, you have the sourcecode and can therefore make infinite copies for free. I would guess there are all kinds of low rating programs in free open source sites just like there are today. But if you want the good stuff, you'll have to work for it one way or another.
Average citizens don't copy programs for the same reason people don't now. It's illegal and corp types don't want a stain on their record because they want to remain wageslaves.
One houserule states that copy protection in 2070 is adaptive which means you only get one free copy per net hit. Therefore you need to spend a bunch of time copying a file for each of your buddies. Also, the copy protection may have some sort of data bomb when you glitch that makes a call to the local Lone Star.
If you wrote the program yourself, you have the sourcecode and can therefore make infinite copies for free. I would guess there are all kinds of low rating programs in free open source sites just like there are today. But if you want the good stuff, you'll have to work for it one way or another.
1. its the whole process that goes faster. the process of acquire target, id target, aim at target, blow target away. if you watch matrix, think of neo as having high level wired reflexes.
2. without reality filter you dont loose anything, because you dont gain anything either. the loss when using reality filter and not winning the contest with the target host is from the conflict of instructions that create.
its like trying to hold two conversations at the same time.
2. without reality filter you dont loose anything, because you dont gain anything either. the loss when using reality filter and not winning the contest with the target host is from the conflict of instructions that create.
its like trying to hold two conversations at the same time.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| I would guess there are all kinds of low rating programs in free open source sites just like there are today. But if you want the good stuff, you'll have to work for it one way or another. |
In 2070, free software advocates will kill you for stating that. And then break into th corporate server and liberate the sourcecode.
1. Yep, this has been brought up a lot on the forums. What ends up happening is that everyone gets multiple initiative passes. So instead of extra IPs being a bonus they are more of a necessity. You really don't have any choice in the matter, only the illusion of one.
2. Works exactly as you described. If you don't have a reality filter and they do, you automatically lose.
3. Don't know much about Technomancers. Waiting for someone else here. Sounds right though.
4. Good question, in fact I asked the same thing, and received rather unrealistic answers in my opinion. People responded that pirated programs do not work as well, that you can't update them, they aren't fully functional, etc. Obviously coming from people not to well informed about piracy, no offense to those people. Obviously the GM can not allow rating 6 programs for free. Most have ruled that the hacker in the party can start out with them, and then remove the copyright protection, but can not just simply download them. I know it doesn't make sense and isn't congruent to the fluff, but it preserves game balance.
5. Does anyone use Docwagon here on the forums? To answer your questions I think SR3 books are needed.
6. Good point, though you will have minuses for shooting on the run.
Yes it does tend to spread the rules and then certain rules and fluff you look for is hidden in some sidebar or some other easy to miss text.
2. Works exactly as you described. If you don't have a reality filter and they do, you automatically lose.
3. Don't know much about Technomancers. Waiting for someone else here. Sounds right though.
4. Good question, in fact I asked the same thing, and received rather unrealistic answers in my opinion. People responded that pirated programs do not work as well, that you can't update them, they aren't fully functional, etc. Obviously coming from people not to well informed about piracy, no offense to those people. Obviously the GM can not allow rating 6 programs for free. Most have ruled that the hacker in the party can start out with them, and then remove the copyright protection, but can not just simply download them. I know it doesn't make sense and isn't congruent to the fluff, but it preserves game balance.
5. Does anyone use Docwagon here on the forums? To answer your questions I think SR3 books are needed.
6. Good point, though you will have minuses for shooting on the run.
Yes it does tend to spread the rules and then certain rules and fluff you look for is hidden in some sidebar or some other easy to miss text.
1) yes. multiple initiative passes are very powerful. generally speaking, 2 is a big difference compared to 1, and 3 is a fairly significant difference. 4 IPs vs 3 IPs is not all that huge of a deal imo, however. it is worth noting that getting 4 IPs at chargen is extremely difficult, and that both ways of doing so carry hefty drawbacks (that is, the adept power costs 5 power points, leaving you almost nothing left, and the spell must be sustained manually since you can't put it in a sustaining focus at high enough force to get 4 IPs). this is intentional; those with multiple IPs are basically specialised at taking on multiple weaker opponents. just don't forget, even someone with 4 IPs is not as scary as 4 people otherwise the same with 1 IP each; if he's not having problems with security, it's because you're not using security to call for backup like you're supposed to, and especially security should be calling in stuff like drone support, summoned/bound spirits, etc.
2) if you have no response filter, there is no chance of getting +1 response, but no chance of losing response either. there isn't really any indication of how to handle the response increase or reduction, but i personally would handle it the same as losing response due to program overload, per the FAQ. (basically, it only changes tests where your response is directly used; it does not affect your maximum system rating, the number of programs you can run, etc).
3) given time (remember, 1 hour per rating of the sprite to be registered) and sufficient first aid, you've got it more or less right. considering most TMs start off pretty weak in the meat world in exchange for dominating in the matrix, this isn't really all that big of a deal, imo. after all, the hacker can just have agents and drones with no limitation other than resources/money to run them.
4) the costs for owning gear at chargen are not necessarily to be thought as money. you may have paid nothing for them and coded them yourself... it's resources, not money, that you buy with BP, and those resources are simply balanced as far as what you can get based on the book value of those resources, measured in nuyen.
there are, however, various suggested fluff reasons why you can't just download rating 6 hacking programs (most of these involve the fact that if anyone can download it, anyone can devise protection from it/crack it's defenses by analyzing it, which results in it losing rating). that being said, there isn't really anything keeping the hacker from passing out copies other than possible roleplaying issues (loading IC on the team's commlinks, quite possible... that's what it's for. loading black hammer on the team's commlinks? not so likely, imo) in any event, if you wish to start with programs, you should pay the resource cost. if your hacker gives them out to everyone immediately after chargen, then i would say you are a bunch of metagaming bums, and you should repent and change your ways =P (in any event, everyone does need to have the hardware to run the software on, and the skills to use the software efficiently, for the most part). remember, this is not the sort of game where you can always trust your team as soon as you meet them
5) iirc, there's a bit more information on this in augmentation. i'll see about looking that up for you. personally, i just don't see docwagon being a good choice for runners, though...
6) there are modifiers for cover. as i recall, they are something like -1 to attack for the person with cover, and -4 to attack them. use those modifiers and you should be fine also, don't forget that some cover can be simply shot through (see the rules for attacking through barriers for details) which may devalue the cover further if they aren't behind something fairly solid
i will also refer you to the delay action. it is possible with this action to interrupt someone else's action... so yes, a security team can wait for the runners to put their head around the corner, and *then* shoot, actually going before the runner gets to make their own attack.
2) if you have no response filter, there is no chance of getting +1 response, but no chance of losing response either. there isn't really any indication of how to handle the response increase or reduction, but i personally would handle it the same as losing response due to program overload, per the FAQ. (basically, it only changes tests where your response is directly used; it does not affect your maximum system rating, the number of programs you can run, etc).
3) given time (remember, 1 hour per rating of the sprite to be registered) and sufficient first aid, you've got it more or less right. considering most TMs start off pretty weak in the meat world in exchange for dominating in the matrix, this isn't really all that big of a deal, imo. after all, the hacker can just have agents and drones with no limitation other than resources/money to run them.
4) the costs for owning gear at chargen are not necessarily to be thought as money. you may have paid nothing for them and coded them yourself... it's resources, not money, that you buy with BP, and those resources are simply balanced as far as what you can get based on the book value of those resources, measured in nuyen.
there are, however, various suggested fluff reasons why you can't just download rating 6 hacking programs (most of these involve the fact that if anyone can download it, anyone can devise protection from it/crack it's defenses by analyzing it, which results in it losing rating). that being said, there isn't really anything keeping the hacker from passing out copies other than possible roleplaying issues (loading IC on the team's commlinks, quite possible... that's what it's for. loading black hammer on the team's commlinks? not so likely, imo) in any event, if you wish to start with programs, you should pay the resource cost. if your hacker gives them out to everyone immediately after chargen, then i would say you are a bunch of metagaming bums, and you should repent and change your ways =P (in any event, everyone does need to have the hardware to run the software on, and the skills to use the software efficiently, for the most part). remember, this is not the sort of game where you can always trust your team as soon as you meet them
5) iirc, there's a bit more information on this in augmentation. i'll see about looking that up for you. personally, i just don't see docwagon being a good choice for runners, though...
6) there are modifiers for cover. as i recall, they are something like -1 to attack for the person with cover, and -4 to attack them. use those modifiers and you should be fine
also, don't forget that some cover can be simply shot through (see the rules for attacking through barriers for details) which may devalue the cover further if they aren't behind something fairly solid i will also refer you to the delay action. it is possible with this action to interrupt someone else's action... so yes, a security team can wait for the runners to put their head around the corner, and *then* shoot, actually going before the runner gets to make their own attack.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
In 2070, free software advocates will kill you for stating that. And then break into th corporate server and liberate the sourcecode. |
Ummmm, there are open source programs that are just as good or superior to commercial products. This is a common misconception in the software world.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| 2) if you have no response filter, there is no chance of getting +1 response, but no chance of losing response either. there isn't really any indication of how to handle the response increase or reduction, but i personally would handle it the same as losing response due to program overload, per the FAQ. (basically, it only changes tests where your response is directly used; it does not affect your maximum system rating, the number of programs you can run, etc). |
Interesting, so this relegates reality filter to being a completely worthless program. AWESOME!!!
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| Ummmm, there are open source programs that are just as good or superior to commercial products. This is a common misconception in the software world. |
..yeah, that was the point...
6 Having previously readied an action to shoot any hostile in view. I'd possibly use surprise rules here. I also divide all movement over four passes so that people with one pass don't complete their moves quicker than wired people.
| QUOTE (Eleazar @ Jul 31 2007, 05:07 PM) | ||
Interesting, so this relegates reality filter to being a completely worthless program. AWESOME!!! |
meh, it's a 600
investment for the best reality filter you'll ever get. i can't say that i feel terribly bad about it not being needed all that often.[edit] and just to clarify, it would modify any test that uses response directly. that includes matrix initiative, matrix defense, and (interestingly) the effective attribute when you pilot a drone (this one's a little iffy, though, but certainly makes it desireable for riggers at least) [/edit]
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| 6) there are modifiers for cover. as i recall, they are something like -1 to attack for the person with cover, and -4 to attack them. use those modifiers and you should be fine also, don't forget that some cover can be simply shot through (see the rules for attacking through barriers for details) which may devalue the cover further if they aren't behind something fairly solid |
I think the whole idea is that they have truly full cover. It would be like shooting at someone behind a steel wall. They have no parts of their body showing, thus no targets to hit. If you can't shoot through the barrier and no parts of their body are showing, then you can't get hit. -4 is good cover in the rules:
Target Has Good Cover
If at least 50% of the target’s form is obscured by intervening
terrain. A –4 dice pool modifier applies. Th is modifier can
also apply to prone targets at least 20 meters away.
Full cover means 100% of the targets form is behind cover, so the shooter gets a -6 blindfire penalty to shoot and they have to shoot through the barrier, if they can.
Yeah, I'd say the relative inneffectiveness of reality filters is only an issue if some poor deluded TM picks the complex form up, since that'd be one hell of a karma sink for a less-than-vanilla 'trix ability. It'd also hit me as goofy from a fluff perspective, since they don't need no stinkin' metaphors just to feel at home on the matrix. Still, it's a fun program RP wise. Changing the world around your opponent's eyes and then stomping them in matrix combat is stylish.
Anyway, yeah, extra initiative passes sound stronger in theory than they are in practice. Shadowrun can easily be sufficiently lethal to police itself. To make a D&D metaphor, giving a character wired reflexes is like giving a level 1 fighter 4 attacks a round in exchange for never gaining hps when he levels. Street Samurai have a tendency to run around beating the crap out of things and looking damn near invincible- right up until some security guard gets lucky with a long burst right to the brainpan. Also, 2 security guards can just take some Jazz (a tailored combat drug with minimal side effects designed for LoneStar) and have 4 IPs between the two of them without having to go through having their entire nervous system rewired. So IPs are important, and I wouldn't leave home without at least a drug capable of giving an extra one in a pinch, but having more than 3 isn't exactly god mode either.
Anyway, yeah, extra initiative passes sound stronger in theory than they are in practice. Shadowrun can easily be sufficiently lethal to police itself. To make a D&D metaphor, giving a character wired reflexes is like giving a level 1 fighter 4 attacks a round in exchange for never gaining hps when he levels. Street Samurai have a tendency to run around beating the crap out of things and looking damn near invincible- right up until some security guard gets lucky with a long burst right to the brainpan. Also, 2 security guards can just take some Jazz (a tailored combat drug with minimal side effects designed for LoneStar) and have 4 IPs between the two of them without having to go through having their entire nervous system rewired. So IPs are important, and I wouldn't leave home without at least a drug capable of giving an extra one in a pinch, but having more than 3 isn't exactly god mode either.
| QUOTE (Eleazar @ Jul 31 2007, 05:06 PM) | ||||
Ummmm, there are open source programs that are just as good or superior to commercial products. This is a common misconception in the software world. |
Yeah, eclipse is just as good as Visual Studio 2005 <rolls eyes>
Comeon you hippies, I'll run over your RX-8's with my gas guzzling SUV any day of the week!
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| I'll try to answer the copyright questions. Average citizens don't copy programs for the same reason people don't now. It's illegal and corp types don't want a stain on their record because they want to remain wageslaves. |
Everybody copies software now, especially wage slaves. It is literally impossible to find any major business in the United States which does not violate the licensing terms for some piece of software in some way. Usually, they simply install more copies of the software than they are licensed to have because it is convenient to do so. Software Industry watchdog groups do check out companies from time to time and there are occasionally huge multi-million dollar lawsuits, but this is very rare. By the same token, lawsuits against individual are also rare. It just requires so much time and effort.
In the Sixth World, as Frank Trollman stated, software industry watchdog groups can kill you. They can send ninja assassins or they can just press a button a drop a giant tungsten pole on your head from orbit. They can ever incorporate deadly simsense signals into the program to kill anyone who uses as improperly registered version of it in Hot VR.
This goes for businesses, too. The Megacorporations don't have to worry very much and can get away with just a slap on the wrist, but they don't have to because most megas have in-house software teams. The smaller corps, however, risk having their facilities blown up and their executives executed if they are caught pirating software.
When businesses in the Sixth World go to war, it is literally war with bullets and bombs. During the Insurance Wars, even innocent customers were targeted for extermination based on who they bought from.
The difficulty of cracking protection also presents a challenge, and would generally require a dedicated cracker, anyway.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 31 2007, 05:32 PM) |
| In the Sixth World, as Frank Trollman stated, software industry watchdog groups can kill you. They can send ninja assassins or they can just press a button a drop a giant tungsten pole on your head from orbit. They can ever incorporate deadly simsense signals into the program to kill anyone who uses as improperly registered version of it in Hot VR. This goes for businesses, too. The Megacorporations don't have to worry very much and can get away with just a slap on the wrist, but they don't have to because most megas have in-house software teams. The smaller corps, however, risk having their facilities blown up and their executives executed if they are caught pirating software. When businesses in the Sixth World go to war, it is literally war with bullets and bombs. During the Insurance Wars, even innocent customers were targeted for extermination based on who they bought from. |
I can't tell if you are kidding or not.
Wow, talk about a lively response, I went to eat dinner, came back, and poof! Thanks all. So, let me see if I can summarize what's been decided here.
1. Yes, initiative passes are broken. Deal with it. Two well-placed shots will kill a troublesome PC anyway.
2. Reality Filters, though very cool from a flavor perspective, just don't do a damn thing.
3. For the most part, yeah, technomancers can be ridiculous with their registered sprites.
4. Copy protection is still a bit of a question. I still have not seen a satisfactory answer to the question of why any old hacker, by using the software coding rules in the book, can't just make a rating 6 something and post it for free all over the Matrix, and why, consequently, everyone doesn't run around with rating 6 everythings on their commlink.
5. So the consensus is, DocWagon sucks? That makes me sad. They're such a cool idea. Cost enough, too.
6. Undecided. So can people just hide behind steel walls, using their smartlinked guns as their eyes and, umm, guns? And have full cover all the time?
So, how about those remaining questions, about copy protection and cover/smartlinks? Can we come to a consensus on that? In my game with regards to copy protection I just said, no, you can't, because having the hacker give all his programs to the technologically deficient rest of the party (the mage is incompetent in the whole electronics skill group and has gremlins 3) would just be truly broken. But I'd like to give a better reason than DM intervention, if I could.
1. Yes, initiative passes are broken. Deal with it. Two well-placed shots will kill a troublesome PC anyway.
2. Reality Filters, though very cool from a flavor perspective, just don't do a damn thing.
3. For the most part, yeah, technomancers can be ridiculous with their registered sprites.
4. Copy protection is still a bit of a question. I still have not seen a satisfactory answer to the question of why any old hacker, by using the software coding rules in the book, can't just make a rating 6 something and post it for free all over the Matrix, and why, consequently, everyone doesn't run around with rating 6 everythings on their commlink.
5. So the consensus is, DocWagon sucks? That makes me sad. They're such a cool idea. Cost enough, too.
6. Undecided. So can people just hide behind steel walls, using their smartlinked guns as their eyes and, umm, guns? And have full cover all the time?
So, how about those remaining questions, about copy protection and cover/smartlinks? Can we come to a consensus on that? In my game with regards to copy protection I just said, no, you can't, because having the hacker give all his programs to the technologically deficient rest of the party (the mage is incompetent in the whole electronics skill group and has gremlins 3) would just be truly broken. But I'd like to give a better reason than DM intervention, if I could.
3. One of the PC's died from the Fading damage he took when trying to Register a sprite during downtime. Granted, he was pushing the envelope a little (it was Rating 6 and he had a Resonance of 5). He had to burn a point of Edge to survive.
5. As for DocWagon, one of the old SR2 or SR3 books has a ton of info on them. I forget which one. Maybe the Neo Anarachists Guide to Real Life?
-JKL
5. As for DocWagon, one of the old SR2 or SR3 books has a ton of info on them. I forget which one. Maybe the Neo Anarachists Guide to Real Life?
-JKL
| QUOTE (jklst14) |
| 5. As for DocWagon, one of the old SR2 or SR3 books has a ton of info on them. I forget which one. Maybe the Neo Anarachists Guide to Real Life? |
NeoAnarchists Guide to Real Life and also the Missions adventure pack from SR2.
| QUOTE (coolgrafix) | ||
NeoAnarchists Guide to Real Life and also the Missions adventure pack from SR2. |
The NeoAnarchist's Guide info regarding DocWagon has been summarized here.
In Missions, the details of being a DocWagon employee and their operating procedures are discussed at length along with a sample adventure.
Yeah, unfortunately, extra initiative passes can make or break a combat character. Now, in their defense, current gunplay types are horribly slow compared to real world stuff. For example, I've got a good, but not fantastic, fast draw, averaging about 0.22 seconds to draw and shoot on target, with a fastest of .015 ... The fastest is, literally, faster than the human eye can follow or a normal camera can fully track. And those are real human beings (Fire up "Quick draw" on YouTube sometime for examples.)
At the 400 point level, if you don't have extra passes, you do NOT need to be near a fight if you can help it.
Reality Filtes are hard to work with as they stand but will probably get expanded at some point in the future. The cloest that I can come up with is to compare them to Windows (egads!) ... You get used to Windows, you know where stuff is located, and, thanks to using the industry standard, you can handle programs pretty well. If, in contrast, you're using a different system, one that is better tailored to your exact needs, you can operate better than a standard user ... until you run into software that doesn't interact with your personal operating system. Having to deal with something that isn't familiar, you just aren't as good as you normally are.
Registering needs a little work. Personally, I'd houserule it to 1 Karma to make the attempt... in a single blow, you put a cost, but not TOO big of a cost, on the action, which prevents a million billion Registered Sprites and keeps people from registering until they get max hits each time. It's a House Rule, and, admitedly, a kludge, but.
Program hacking is a huge hole. Lots of people talk about how common it is in the real world, but, as an example of a non-savy computer guy, I couldn't tell you how it gets done or where to find such things. It's WAY over my head. I'd imagine that the corps try to Napster it, flooding the Matrix with hacked, but non-functional malware types, to try and snag people searching online for stuff, just like Napster would be filled with broken mp3's of popular songs, to make it not worth the time or effort to snag freebies.
I'd LOVE to see RIAA Ninjas, however. While silly, it'd also just be fantasticly fun.
Another Houserule you could use would be to make programs have an availability... common use of Rating X 2, Hacking of Rating X3 ... at least make them work for the stuff.
Never had anyone use Docwagon, so, here, I'm out of the loop. Shadowrunners shouldn't have health insurance.
For wall safety, yes, smart people hide and shoot. Of course, other smart people use grenades, which they throw out to drive people out of cover.
At the 400 point level, if you don't have extra passes, you do NOT need to be near a fight if you can help it.
Reality Filtes are hard to work with as they stand but will probably get expanded at some point in the future. The cloest that I can come up with is to compare them to Windows (egads!) ... You get used to Windows, you know where stuff is located, and, thanks to using the industry standard, you can handle programs pretty well. If, in contrast, you're using a different system, one that is better tailored to your exact needs, you can operate better than a standard user ... until you run into software that doesn't interact with your personal operating system. Having to deal with something that isn't familiar, you just aren't as good as you normally are.
Registering needs a little work. Personally, I'd houserule it to 1 Karma to make the attempt... in a single blow, you put a cost, but not TOO big of a cost, on the action, which prevents a million billion Registered Sprites and keeps people from registering until they get max hits each time. It's a House Rule, and, admitedly, a kludge, but.
Program hacking is a huge hole. Lots of people talk about how common it is in the real world, but, as an example of a non-savy computer guy, I couldn't tell you how it gets done or where to find such things. It's WAY over my head. I'd imagine that the corps try to Napster it, flooding the Matrix with hacked, but non-functional malware types, to try and snag people searching online for stuff, just like Napster would be filled with broken mp3's of popular songs, to make it not worth the time or effort to snag freebies.
I'd LOVE to see RIAA Ninjas, however. While silly, it'd also just be fantasticly fun.
Another Houserule you could use would be to make programs have an availability... common use of Rating X 2, Hacking of Rating X3 ... at least make them work for the stuff.
Never had anyone use Docwagon, so, here, I'm out of the loop. Shadowrunners shouldn't have health insurance.
For wall safety, yes, smart people hide and shoot. Of course, other smart people use grenades, which they throw out to drive people out of cover.
| QUOTE (Gelare @ Jul 31 2007, 05:53 PM) |
| 4. Copy protection is still a bit of a question. I still have not seen a satisfactory answer to the question of why any old hacker, by using the software coding rules in the book, can't just make a rating 6 something and post it for free all over the Matrix, and why, consequently, everyone doesn't run around with rating 6 everythings on their commlink. |
So Mr. Joe Hacker decides that he's had it up to here with the commercial Firewall programs out there. He wants his own kickass Rating 6 Firewall program.
He goes for the gold and dedicates an inordinate amount of time coding it himself.
He posts it on the Matrix. Everyone now has it. Including those hackers who didn't even have to break the copy protection for it.
So now those other hackers get to test and reverse-engineer the Firewall 6 program. Within a week it becomes useless as they crack it and target everyone who used it.
It's all due to the (lack of) Copy Protection that they had an easier time to break the code as it were. You could argue that Joe could have put in a limited version that allows it to defend itself or blow up, etc, and be just as hard to crack as a commercial system.
But it's still much more manageable.
Then again, the software corps and divisions of larger megacorps don't take too kindly to competition. Hello Microsoft with an army! You think they played underhanded now with laws and such stopping them? Wait till they hire cyberninja adepts to make an example of you.
Hell, sabotaging Joe's Firewall 6 program would be fun for many, many corporate hackers.
In short, it really is up to you. Keep in mind though not everyone looks at efficiency when buying products.
As for number 6, sure why not? In fact, I'd gather a lot of people would use those Smart Firing Platforms which are tripods with a smartlink system in it.
The trick of course is that there are bullets that might go through such barriers, there's magic to contend with and the spirits that could materialize in your face or spells that could blow up in your vicinity, and that you don't have an infinite amount of time to fight.
That's why tactics are quite important. One mage with a Trid Phantasm spell can create a solid distraction so that the rest of his team can flank and kill the bad guys (or just plain get away).
Question 5:
Extraterritoriality. Essentially a corp's land is its own nation with its own laws. So DocWagon can't exactly bust inside Ares' ultra secret weapons lab and drag your butt out. But they will pick you up outside the street.
They may have to contend with extradition papers but they'll ignore those usually.
I think there are legal clauses that allow DocWagon patients some measure of privacy from the auspices of Lone Star or Knight Errant.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| I can't tell if you are kidding or not. |
| QUOTE (SR Timeline) |
| The Insurance War. Cord Mutual Insurance and North American Eagle Life Insurance wage a semi-covert war over the insurance contract for all employees of the CAS government. On June 8, six Geas jets explode simultaneously in flight from their Atlanta departure point. Geas Airline is insured by North American Eagle Life Insurance which pays out huge sums both for the jets and the relatives of slain passengers. No connection is made with Cord Mutual. A sweep of assassinations of vidstars and entertainment personalities across the continent, especially in Atlanta, follows. Eventually North American Eagle's corporate investigators make a connection between one of the assassinations and Cord Mutual. North American Eagle begins funding a terrorist organization known as the Medusa Sisterhood to retaliate against Cord Mutual. The Medusa Sisterhood makes a series of vandalous attacks on Cord Mutual-Insured corporations and individuals. Cord Mutual responds with attacks against the Medusa Sisterhood as well as North American Eagle. What began as a clandestine corporate power struggle becomes a bloody war, claiming the lives of hundreds of insured. |
Not kidding.
Not kidding at all.
Blatant software piracy may just result in a huge damage award from the Corporate Court, but it could also lead to violence or even an Omega Order in the case of habitual violations.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
Not kidding. Not kidding at all. Blatant software piracy may just result in a huge damage award from the Corporate Court, but it could also lead to violence or even an Omega Order in the case of habitual violations. |
Or job offers.
| QUOTE (Wakshaani) |
| Registering needs a little work. Personally, I'd houserule it to 1 Karma to make the attempt... in a single blow, you put a cost, but not TOO big of a cost, on the action, which prevents a million billion Registered Sprites and keeps people from registering until they get max hits each time. It's a House Rule, and, admitedly, a kludge, but. |
that is quite possibly the worst idea i have ever heard for technomancers.
they're already starved for karma. they can't even afford to know all their CFs at their best level, never mind dealing with echoes and submerging, raising their matrix skills, and raising their meat skills and attributes so that they at least have a chance in the meat against a 2 year old with an airsoft pistol. the *last* thing technomancers need is to have to pay karma for a registering attempt.
As a workaround on copy protection, I use the old SOTA rules for programs. That means that legal copies come with weekly/monthly upgrades, patches, add-ons, etc... while cracked programs don't, and very quickly degrade in rating. Want an updated version? Crack the newly patched version.
Also, in terms of open-source, remember this: if your open-source program becomes a threat to a huge moneymaker that AAA is selling, they can - and will - just kill you, burn your family, make it look like a gas leak, 'find' a document that says you ceeded the software to them, and turn around and sell it to your friends. Alternately, they just buy you out. They are in charge via money, and if you threaten their finances in any real way, you will die or be forced to ally yourself with them.
Hell, those kinds of steal-kill-burn missions are what shadowrunners are for.
Also, in terms of open-source, remember this: if your open-source program becomes a threat to a huge moneymaker that AAA is selling, they can - and will - just kill you, burn your family, make it look like a gas leak, 'find' a document that says you ceeded the software to them, and turn around and sell it to your friends. Alternately, they just buy you out. They are in charge via money, and if you threaten their finances in any real way, you will die or be forced to ally yourself with them.
Hell, those kinds of steal-kill-burn missions are what shadowrunners are for.
Anyone who thinks that technomancer compiling and registration is overpowered clearly hasn't actually had much experience playing as or with technomancers in a game.
Threaded stealth and sprites are all that technomancers have going for them, everything else can be duplicated for much, much less cost by a hacker, often a starting hacker. Now, those two things by themselves are quite powerful, but hardly gamebreakingly so.
That said, Gelare, welcome to the game. I think most of your questions have been answered. About the smartgun-around-a-corner trick, it seems fairly logical that doing that would carry a penalty for having to aim using a camera rather than your eyes. Also remember that unless the smartlink has been upgraded with things like thermographic vision and ultrasound, darkness and smoke penalties will apply where they wouldn't to a character with cybereyes.
Additionally, these tactics are fair game for everyone. If you're fighting in a corporate installment, expect the corp to have put some thought into what could serve as cover and set things up to their advantage, including drilling guards to adopt particular positions depending on what they were trying to do (prevent entry, cover exits, seek-and-eliminate intruders, etc).
Threaded stealth and sprites are all that technomancers have going for them, everything else can be duplicated for much, much less cost by a hacker, often a starting hacker. Now, those two things by themselves are quite powerful, but hardly gamebreakingly so.
That said, Gelare, welcome to the game. I think most of your questions have been answered. About the smartgun-around-a-corner trick, it seems fairly logical that doing that would carry a penalty for having to aim using a camera rather than your eyes. Also remember that unless the smartlink has been upgraded with things like thermographic vision and ultrasound, darkness and smoke penalties will apply where they wouldn't to a character with cybereyes.
Additionally, these tactics are fair game for everyone. If you're fighting in a corporate installment, expect the corp to have put some thought into what could serve as cover and set things up to their advantage, including drilling guards to adopt particular positions depending on what they were trying to do (prevent entry, cover exits, seek-and-eliminate intruders, etc).
I don't see a hacker giving away copies of a program too often. As others have said, the more people have it, the quicker SOTA will make it obsolete. Plus, he's the best - why would he share his cutting-edge software with some punk kid who will be undercutting him for jobs? These people are his competitors.
I could see a hacker hacking copy protection for firewall, to protect his runner team, the same way that the mage might lend out the services of a bound spirit to another party member. Keeping the other party members secure against hacking helps the team's effectiveness, and thus the decker's bottom line. The section on piracy does say that piracy is the rule rather than the exception (at least for hackers).
I could see a hacker hacking copy protection for firewall, to protect his runner team, the same way that the mage might lend out the services of a bound spirit to another party member. Keeping the other party members secure against hacking helps the team's effectiveness, and thus the decker's bottom line. The section on piracy does say that piracy is the rule rather than the exception (at least for hackers).
1. The guy with more IP will start moving before anyone else. While the guys with 1 IP will take about half a second to react to anything (standard reaction time), the guy with 4 IP will start shooting nearly right away. He will also be able to reajust his aim quicker and so will be able to shoot again sooner than unaugmented people.
In Shadowrun, hitting someone is (according to what I heard) much easier than in real-life. I guess this means that the combat rules is designed to play professionnals: you don't shoot often, but you take time to make sure you'll hit.
Another way would be to consider that for each shooting action the attacker shoots x bullets.
Anyway, rolling the dice for each and every shot with a realistic rate of fire would lead to tediously long combat turns.
2. If you strictly apply the rules, using a Reality Filter will lead you to a +1 or -1 modifier and not using one will give you no modifier. You can play it this way (considering that someone used to a reality filter will be much more at ease when using it but will have trouble when he can't use it whereas someone who's used to adapt himself to each system won't be affected). Or you can consider that if the node OR the user have a reality filter you need to do the test.
4. The way I see it, software in 2070 is totally closed. The corps had 2 occasions to more or less rebuild the whole computer world from scratch so I guess they didn't restrain from filling it with DRM, patents and other copy protection systems. For me, the Open-Source community in 2070 is an underground hacker society: due to patents they can't legally create any software compatible with the Matrix 2.0 standards. I don't think it's uncommon for slavewage to have the corp's agent scan their computer for illegal or pirated software so in the end, software piracy will mostly be found in the Shadows.
The reasons why you will have trouble find high rating hacking programs even in the Shadows have been given.
6. That's what grenades are for.
In Shadowrun, hitting someone is (according to what I heard) much easier than in real-life. I guess this means that the combat rules is designed to play professionnals: you don't shoot often, but you take time to make sure you'll hit.
Another way would be to consider that for each shooting action the attacker shoots x bullets.
Anyway, rolling the dice for each and every shot with a realistic rate of fire would lead to tediously long combat turns.
2. If you strictly apply the rules, using a Reality Filter will lead you to a +1 or -1 modifier and not using one will give you no modifier. You can play it this way (considering that someone used to a reality filter will be much more at ease when using it but will have trouble when he can't use it whereas someone who's used to adapt himself to each system won't be affected). Or you can consider that if the node OR the user have a reality filter you need to do the test.
4. The way I see it, software in 2070 is totally closed. The corps had 2 occasions to more or less rebuild the whole computer world from scratch so I guess they didn't restrain from filling it with DRM, patents and other copy protection systems. For me, the Open-Source community in 2070 is an underground hacker society: due to patents they can't legally create any software compatible with the Matrix 2.0 standards. I don't think it's uncommon for slavewage to have the corp's agent scan their computer for illegal or pirated software so in the end, software piracy will mostly be found in the Shadows.
The reasons why you will have trouble find high rating hacking programs even in the Shadows have been given.
6. That's what grenades are for.
1. Being three times faster than people should bring a combat advantage. Yes, the rate of fire rules are ridiculous, but that's nothing new for ANY rpg. If it makes you feel better, change combat rounds from counting as three seconds apiece to counting as one second, or something like that. Initiative in any rpg is always wonky.
Skipping around...
6. Yeah, you can do that. I'd apply appropriate penalties for visibility, though, since most street samurai types have plenty of goodies packed into their eyes (or their goggles, or contacts, or glasses), and not so much packed specifically into the underbarrel camera that's part of a smartlink. You can't even use a scope that way...so remember all the normal visibility penalties that most shooters are used to ignoring don't get ignored all of a sudden. Also remember the difference between "cover" and "concealment" -- most stuff people hide behind shouldn't stop a bullet completely. Also remember the NPCs can use the same trick. Also remember the classic real-world tactic of "establish fire superiority, pin them down, then murder them." You can't take cover from every direction at once, and NPC security guys are far more likely to have the manpower to spare on a flanking force than a Shadowrunner team (and never forget grenades).
It's a neat trick, but it's just that; a trick. There are ways to get around it, get past it, and get over it.
Skipping around...
6. Yeah, you can do that. I'd apply appropriate penalties for visibility, though, since most street samurai types have plenty of goodies packed into their eyes (or their goggles, or contacts, or glasses), and not so much packed specifically into the underbarrel camera that's part of a smartlink. You can't even use a scope that way...so remember all the normal visibility penalties that most shooters are used to ignoring don't get ignored all of a sudden. Also remember the difference between "cover" and "concealment" -- most stuff people hide behind shouldn't stop a bullet completely. Also remember the NPCs can use the same trick. Also remember the classic real-world tactic of "establish fire superiority, pin them down, then murder them." You can't take cover from every direction at once, and NPC security guys are far more likely to have the manpower to spare on a flanking force than a Shadowrunner team (and never forget grenades).
It's a neat trick, but it's just that; a trick. There are ways to get around it, get past it, and get over it.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Everybody copies software now, especially wage slaves. It is literally impossible to find any major business in the United States which does not violate the licensing terms for some piece of software in some way. |
Proof?
| QUOTE (Marwynn) |
| So now those other hackers get to test and reverse-engineer the Firewall 6 program. Within a week it becomes useless as they crack it and target everyone who used it. |
Hmm... This argument is actually contrary to reality. Open source software by its very nature is generally more secure.
| QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 31 2007, 08:35 PM) |
| they're already starved for karma. they can't even afford to know all their CFs at their best level, never mind dealing with echoes and submerging, raising their matrix skills, and raising their meat skills and attributes so that they at least have a chance in the meat against a 2 year old with an airsoft pistol. the *last* thing technomancers need is to have to pay karma for a registering attempt. |
While I'm not necessarily in favor of the karma idea, Technomancers are still over powered. The ability to thread up a form and have a sprite's assist operation ability easily provide a technomancer the ability to overwhelm a system.... even with low ratings on their forms.
| QUOTE (Narmio @ Jul 31 2007, 08:54 PM) |
| Anyone who thinks that technomancer compiling and registration is overpowered clearly hasn't actually had much experience playing as or with technomancers in a game. |
I have to respectfully disagree with that statement:
Hacker: Hacking(6) + Exploit(5) = dice pool of 11
Technomancer: Hacking(5) + Exploit Form(4) + Threading(4) + Sprite(5) = dice pool of 18
For the technomancer I lowered hacking to use the karma to buy the form.
The Technomancer in that example gets his big dicepool for exactly 15 seconds per two services expended. Considering that in Reregistering he probably gets an average of about 2/3 of an extra service per attempt we're looking at him being able to perform at peak capacity for 15 seconds for every 15 hours of preperation.
-Frank
-Frank
Mostly valid rebuttal, but a technomancer can have effectively unlimited services... Assuming two weeks of downtime, nothing to do but hang out and gain services once per day... 28-42 stacked up services.. That only took one service also. And the threading takes 1 action, 1 second in full VR.
So while it is not truly unlimited I still contend he is kicking major butt in comparison..
So while it is not truly unlimited I still contend he is kicking major butt in comparison..
Matrix security is generally pretty strong in SR4 if you play it for all it's worth. TMs -need- that edge to be worth taking over a hacker (unless your GM is making seriously weak systems). They're more vulnerable to dying due to "chip" damage than hackers, since they need to thread to wield their full power and they're stuck with dealing their actual physical damage track for both Matrix AND meatside combat. They can't afford to use initiative boosters to have multiple passes outside of Hotsim VR either. Even a Hacker Adept is going to be considerably more versatile and durable than a TM, at least until Unwired comes out anyway. You're arguing that a TM, in exchange for boatloads of Karma and time that he most likely doesn't have, will have enough dice to outperform a hacker by 2 or 3 hits on average for less than half an hour. You see a smart TM preparing for two solid weeks just to blow through a system's initial resistance like a nailgun through tissue paper and call it broken. I call it "working as intended". That's pretty much all they're there for.
On issue number one: Four IP's does not make you anywhere near capable of taking down four guys unscathed.
Unless I SERIOUSLY misremember the book:
Combat starts: Speedy Mctwinkbutt goes once, putting two rounds into security goonA.
Then Security Goons B, C, and D all put two rounds into Speedy McTwinkbutt.
IF Speedy McTwinkbutt survives all that he then can attempt to take down the three remaining security guards unopposed. in Initiative passes 2-4. God forbid Goon A doesn't drop from his two wounds, or one of them is a Troll (who in my expirence often take inordinate amounts of ammo to drop, regardless).
I don't think it's been possible to clear the field before anyone else goes since second edition.
Unless I SERIOUSLY misremember the book:
Combat starts: Speedy Mctwinkbutt goes once, putting two rounds into security goonA.
Then Security Goons B, C, and D all put two rounds into Speedy McTwinkbutt.
IF Speedy McTwinkbutt survives all that he then can attempt to take down the three remaining security guards unopposed. in Initiative passes 2-4. God forbid Goon A doesn't drop from his two wounds, or one of them is a Troll (who in my expirence often take inordinate amounts of ammo to drop, regardless).
I don't think it's been possible to clear the field before anyone else goes since second edition.
it is also worth noting that the technomancer in the provided example has spent karma or BP improving stats and skills that the hacker never has to worry about. resonance and the resonance skill group to be specific.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
Proof? |
Have you read the licensing terms on a piece of software lately? Aside from being incredibly arcane, in some cases you can't even see the terms you're being asked to agree to until after you've taken actions that required you to agree to the terms.
Frankly, it wouldn't suprise me if everyone on the planet was currently required to be Bill Gates' cabana boy.
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| On issue number one: Four IP's does not make you anywhere near capable of taking down four guys unscathed. Unless I SERIOUSLY misremember the book: Combat starts: Speedy Mctwinkbutt goes once, putting two rounds into security goonA. Then Security Goons B, C, and D all put two rounds into Speedy McTwinkbutt. IF Speedy McTwinkbutt survives all that he then can attempt to take down the three remaining security guards unopposed. in Initiative passes 2-4. God forbid Goon A doesn't drop from his two wounds, or one of them is a Troll (who in my expirence often take inordinate amounts of ammo to drop, regardless). I don't think it's been possible to clear the field before anyone else goes since second edition. |
This very much depends on the level of security goon.
Okay. Lets say that people aren't stupid, and there's cover involved. Lets pick a "normal security guard" - level 2 goon (I mean, grunt) from the BBB, page 275. Agility 3, Skill 3, and lets be generous and say they have their smartlink linked into their contacts or goggles or whatever; so they're looking at 8 dice to start. Shooting into "good cover" (-4) and shooting out of cover (-1), though, immediately drop you to 3; throw in any kind of uncompensated recoil, and you're just begging for critical glitches left and right. The example gear (HK227X) has 1 point of RC, so on a pair of bursts they'd be at 2 dice for the first and -1 for the second.
Throw in poor visibility (smoke grenade, anyone?), movement, and potential wounds, and even better recoil compensation isn't going to land any of the bullets.
And then, just to add insult to injury; if they go in with SMGs or ARs, a Sam with good armor (6 or 8 clothing) and a couple of points from upgrades (Dermal Plating, Orthoskin, Bone Lacing, hell, even cyberlimbs), and it's going to be bouncing off the stun chart anyway.
Sure, the Sam will be running out of dodge dice after the 6th or 8th burst, but if the people firing have 0-2 dice, how much does it matter?
For a higher-level grunt, yes, they can quickly overwhelm any individual runner; but for "standard" security guards, they're just outclassed.
| QUOTE (Gelare) |
| 4. Copy Protection. Here's a good question. Obviously, pirated programs and so forth are the norm, it says so quite clearly. But my question, then, is why does it include prices for these programs? And a better question, why isn't every person out there walking around with all Rating 6 programs running on their commlink that they downloaded from Bittorrent? Or why can't one person in a shadowrunning team buy a program and then give it to all his buddies? Or why can't a single hacker program a rating six something and then spread it to his team and everyone else on the matrix for free? |
Instead of copies of software think of it as accounts to use software that you pay for.
Imagine you paid for your dumpshock account. You need to enter that account to use the dumpshock forums actively. Sure you can run as many browser and instances that you want, but you still need that account to post. The more you pay for the account, the more features you get. Think of the admin accounts as the higher cost programs.
When you move it away from the "Copy" of the software to the rights to use features and abilities of that copy of software everyone has, it may be easier to visualize.
Piracy isn't the ability to copy the code, but to "hack" the accounts without being caught.
[edit] to clarify, this is in response to neko's post 2 posts up [/edit]
what about when the stun and gas grenades start coming in?
and what about when the goons get another 4 dice because they've flanked the runner, who also has to deal with a bunch of negative dicepool mods, and can't take down a group of determined guards before they call in reinforcements in the form of spirits, drones, or built-in security measures?
what about when the stun and gas grenades start coming in?
and what about when the goons get another 4 dice because they've flanked the runner, who also has to deal with a bunch of negative dicepool mods, and can't take down a group of determined guards before they call in reinforcements in the form of spirits, drones, or built-in security measures?
Neko: What is good for the goose can always be good for the gander. Why take a simple example of why IP's don't necessarily rule the roost that is relevant to the question and muddy it up with all sorts of weird stuff?
I mean, for a straight IP comparison the four unwired fellows could be gang members with lots of crude, but effective, street augs. They could have dermal plating, they could be orks with all that extra body.
Hell, they could be Shadowrunners who are out to prove that you don't need the wire to compete! Which means, all else becomes equal. And with 4 IP, our Speedy McTwinkbutt doesn't exactly have a lot of room to improve in other areas. He's only got 1 essences left, after all.
No stacking the deck, please.
I mean, for a straight IP comparison the four unwired fellows could be gang members with lots of crude, but effective, street augs. They could have dermal plating, they could be orks with all that extra body.
Hell, they could be Shadowrunners who are out to prove that you don't need the wire to compete! Which means, all else becomes equal. And with 4 IP, our Speedy McTwinkbutt doesn't exactly have a lot of room to improve in other areas. He's only got 1 essences left, after all.
No stacking the deck, please.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) | ||||
Have you read the licensing terms on a piece of software lately? Aside from being incredibly arcane, in some cases you can't even see the terms you're being asked to agree to until after you've taken actions that required you to agree to the terms. Frankly, it wouldn't suprise me if everyone on the planet was currently required to be Bill Gates' cabana boy. |
Sounds like a "I have no proof" to me.
You know there really isn't a way to prove every company in existance is in violation of one or more EULAs.
Working at a software company with an extrodinarily user-friendly EULA, I'd estimate at least 75% of our customer base still manages to "stretch" the definitions of what's allowed by our EULA.
(i.e. 'allowed to install on one computer at one location' ends up being installed on office, home, laptop, and assistant's computers.)
Of course, most of our clients are lawyers, so it might not be quite so bad elsewhere.
Working at a software company with an extrodinarily user-friendly EULA, I'd estimate at least 75% of our customer base still manages to "stretch" the definitions of what's allowed by our EULA.
(i.e. 'allowed to install on one computer at one location' ends up being installed on office, home, laptop, and assistant's computers.)
Of course, most of our clients are lawyers, so it might not be quite so bad elsewhere.
I know it's not possible, which is why I was surprised to see hyzmarca say "literally." Anything else I'd just have taken as hyperbole.
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| Neko: What is good for the goose can always be good for the gander. Why take a simple example of why IP's don't necessarily rule the roost that is relevant to the question and muddy it up with all sorts of weird stuff? I mean, for a straight IP comparison the four unwired fellows could be gang members with lots of crude, but effective, street augs. They could have dermal plating, they could be orks with all that extra body. Hell, they could be Shadowrunners who are out to prove that you don't need the wire to compete! Which means, all else becomes equal. And with 4 IP, our Speedy McTwinkbutt doesn't exactly have a lot of room to improve in other areas. He's only got 1 essences left, after all. No stacking the deck, please. |
I don't believe I was stacking the deck; it was what the book describes as a normal security team against what the book describes as a normal starting-level Shadowrunner. Obviously, if one guy goes up against four or five equivalently-augmented guys, he's just boned beyond belief; but that wasn't what I was replying to. What I was specifically responding to was the comment that a team of "security goons" would be able to take down a street sam quite easily in one round... Which, in a lot of cases, simply isn't true.
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| [edit] to clarify, this is in response to neko's post 2 posts up [/edit] what about when the stun and gas grenades start coming in? and what about when the goons get another 4 dice because they've flanked the runner, who also has to deal with a bunch of negative dicepool mods, and can't take down a group of determined guards before they call in reinforcements in the form of spirits, drones, or built-in security measures? |
Yes; but if we're letting both sides be smart rather than just plugging each other with bullets as the post I was responding to mentioned, well, the security team is far, far more boned when the Sam lobs a couple of grenades at them (and their wound penalties start stacking up), and then his teammates (including the bound spirit) kill the rest of them off. And when the call for reinforcements doesn't get through because of the hacker, and the backup spirit is already being dealt with by the elemental the runners' mage brought... Well, it's looking significantly worse for the security guards than it was in the initial situation.
It's quite easy to create an intelligent response scenario that tries to cover all bases; and almost every response and piece to it can be countered by a sufficiently intelligent runner team, if they're adequately prepared or just outright lucky.
But when you start going down that route, it's also outside the scope of the post I was responding to, which was just commenting that a single street sam won't win against security goons, because they still get actions in the first pass.
| QUOTE (neko128) |
| But when you start going down that route, it's also outside the scope of the post I was responding to, which was just commenting that a single street sam won't win against security goons, because they still get actions in the first pass. |
your post there had nothing to do with initiative passes anyways. it had to do with skill. the street sammy wasn't winning in your example because he had 4 IPs, he was winning because he had a big enough dice pool to hit even with the penalties.
if you had 4 guys with the sammy's dicepool vs the 1 sammy with 4 IPs, in that situation, the sammy wouldn't have done nearly as well.
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