Full Version: Which is more powerful?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
You can take all that stuff you just said about melee, and then factor in an Adept with Distance Strike, and then all those 'advantages' can be given to Ranged Combat (in SR) as well.  Have I mentioned before that I absolutely hate Distance Strike??! |
...I do too, since it costs so fragging much. An Adept (MA 5) with Improved Reflexes 2 & Distance Strike has pretty much tapped out her PPs. at chargen. I wouldn't even consider of adding Distance Strike later for it would take two Initiations and Attribute increases (that's 78 Karma).
...which is why I try to make sure my physads have some form of ranged attack like guns or throwing.
Yeah, adepts were left out in the conversion equation.
I blame monowhips and shock gloves. It takes quite a few power points and/or muscle to outperform those two choices. As convenient as it is for many of my characters, I do find it a li'l disheartening that I have characters who treated strength as an afterthought or in some cases even a full on dump stat and still match or even outdamage a 6 or 7 strength swordsman fairly easily. It really does tend to split characters into four groups:
1. Gunslingers. Guns, dodge and low strength.
2. Gunslingers who also take unarmed (shock hands/glove, bonelacing) or monowhips and call it a day. Still unlikely to have a strength score higher than 3 or 4 points.
3. People who took a melee skill and have a strength score somewhere around 6 to 8 points. Mundanes in group 3 are rarely much better off in melee than people in group 2, despite having spent (in some cases a lot) more points. Really need to be adepts (read: massive point sinks) to clearly outperform group 2 in hand to hand.
4. Melee God Troll. Double digit strength, but ironically still probably better off with ranged attacks. Why bother punching someone when you can have a bow and arrow that you could easily use to go monster truck hunting? After all, if it's not dead after the first couple of 12DV+ narcoject laced arrows, you should really consider another line of work. Or at least running like hell.
I'd like to see the characters in group 3 get some love, but I'm not holding my breath.
1. Gunslingers. Guns, dodge and low strength.
2. Gunslingers who also take unarmed (shock hands/glove, bonelacing) or monowhips and call it a day. Still unlikely to have a strength score higher than 3 or 4 points.
3. People who took a melee skill and have a strength score somewhere around 6 to 8 points. Mundanes in group 3 are rarely much better off in melee than people in group 2, despite having spent (in some cases a lot) more points. Really need to be adepts (read: massive point sinks) to clearly outperform group 2 in hand to hand.
4. Melee God Troll. Double digit strength, but ironically still probably better off with ranged attacks. Why bother punching someone when you can have a bow and arrow that you could easily use to go monster truck hunting? After all, if it's not dead after the first couple of 12DV+ narcoject laced arrows, you should really consider another line of work. Or at least running like hell.
I'd like to see the characters in group 3 get some love, but I'm not holding my breath.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| You can take all that stuff you just said about melee, and then factor in an Adept with Distance Strike, and then all those 'advantages' can be given to Ranged Combat (in SR) as well. Have I mentioned before that I absolutely hate Distance Strike??! |
You have an excellent point, except that distance strike means it's a melee attack and in the 'melee guy has to close with shooter guy' all you do is have to close LESS distance.
The potency argument I made also has a small flaw (but not in regards to ammo) when you factor in cyberguns. You can't smack the gun out of his hand if the gun is literally IN his hand.
But that's the point. You can't run out of ammo, be disarmed (unless it's literal), or be arrested for possesion of your fists. You can have a silenced gun, you can conceal it, but when you're unarmed you're SOL.
I didn't touch on magic because it is the great equalizer. There are touch range spells and the mage LOS rules mean that with the proper setup, a mage can nuke someone from ranges that would make a sniper drool.
Another argument is skill-based. If you give me a gun right now, with the little training I have in firearms, I have 6-11 or so chances to kill you at range. But I would have a hard time trying to kill you with, say, my bare hands or a pencil. A gun is easier to pick up and use. I can easily pick up and wear a black belt, but that isn't going to make me as dangerous as a true martial artist.
I guess my main point of the argument is this; if I have two identical samurai (for purposes of the ranged vs melee test) and they're melee and ranged specialists respectively, then the ranged guy wins in the 'open field' category. The tight alley might go either way, but the melee guy wins in the airport, the secure facility, the mall, the prison.. and any other location with tight or crowded terrain, security that disallows firearms, or any other location that can negate the advantage a fiream gives over melee. There are more melee-favorable conditions and locations than your wide open areas, and that shouldn't be a point that's open to much debate.
Pre-Deus, the Renraku arcology had a huge mall, an amusement park, a zoo, and many other attractions coupled with the tightest security available. People loved going there because they felt safe, and when the ranged sammy and the melee sammy walked in the door, the ranged sammy was no longer able to be potent. I'm sure there could be individual cases (ceramic cyberguns, compressed-air powered cyberdarts, etc) that could circumvent the security, but if we go straight average guy with a predator versus average guy with fists, there's definite advantages favoring Mister Predator wielder until the ammo runs out, as long as he has that Predator available to him.
If we take the next logical step (skill six and skill two variations) then the skill six automatics, skill two unarmed ranged samurai Roger, versus the melee samurai Mike with unarmed of six, and automatics two.. we fix the ranged advantage game. Both blaze away with guns, but Mike's trying to keep Roger pinned as he closes. Both with agility of say six are potent with a gun (Roger being obviously superior), but once Mike closes the distance the advantage shifts significantly. Of course, nothing stops Roger from keeping his gun in the melee combat (we assume Roger's not an idiot), but Mike's also no chump and will try to disarm Roger ASAP. Once Roger's unarmed, we're seeing my main point all over again, nothing is more potent than a weapon that is integral and never runs out of ammo.
I'd like your point better sterling, if it weren't for the fact that, well, it's really rather hard to hit an opponent in unarmed combat. Defending against a melee attack means you can add your dodge/unarmed skill at least once. Roger can fire twice and preemptively spend an initiative pass to go on full defense, which means he'd get a chance to roll Reaction+Unarmed or dodgex2 if he had to, and as the defender, he wins any ties. Mike, on the other hand, has to close, can only attack once and only gets to add skill if he goes on full defense, otherwise he's stuck relying on his reaction score against Roger's gunfire. If Roger makes a knockdown it's probably game, set, match right there, since you can't get up and make a melee attack in the same round. And an automatics specialist forcing a knockdown with an aimed burst is going to be more likely than a melee called shot. Bringing a knife to a gun fight is just plain a bad idea in shadowrun. My longest running SR4 character was an ambidextrous gunfighter who actually kept his offhand free to abuse Unarmed 4 with the parry specialization. The unarmed skill was really just to keep from being defenseless in high security zones and to keep from getting pummeled before I shot the guy dumb enough to try and melee an armed man. Gun-kata anyone?
| QUOTE (Whipstitch) |
| I'd like your point better sterling, if it weren't for the fact that, well, it's really rather hard to hit an opponent in unarmed combat. Defending against a melee attack means you can add your dodge/unarmed skill at least once. Roger can fire twice and preemptively spend an initiative pass to go on full defense, which means he'd get a chance to roll Reaction+Unarmed or dodgex2 if he had to, and as the defender, he wins any ties. Mike, on the other hand, has to close, can only attack once and only gets to add skill if he goes on full defense, otherwise he's stuck relying on his reaction score against Roger's gunfire. If Roger makes a knockdown it's probably game, set, match right there, since you can't get up and make a melee attack in the same round. And an automatics specialist forcing a knockdown with an aimed burst is going to be more likely than a melee called shot. Bringing a knife to a gun fight is just plain a bad idea in shadowrun. My longest running SR4 character was an ambidextrous gunfighter who actually kept his offhand free to abuse Unarmed 4 with the parry specialization. The unarmed skill was really just to keep from being defenseless in high security zones and to keep from getting pummeled before I shot the guy dumb enough to try and melee an armed man. Gun-kata anyone? |
Again, if Mike is just running in a straight line towards Roger, then yes, it could end up exactly as you described. And that's an advantage ranged combat has.
Forgetting Distance Strike for this scenario (because it does turn a melee character into the equivalent of a guy firing a SS weapon with a limited range.. but also somewhat levels the field for the adepts), if Mike decides to do some smart tactical moves while trying to close... he can increase his chances. Things like utilizing cover (-2 dice to -6) and Mike holding up a Flash-pak (-4 dice, only -2 with flare comp) would help reduce the dice pool of Roger, which means Mike can close. I'm not sure how others would rule on 'gymnastics as dodge' being used to close distance, but it's another option as well. Thermal smoke grenades don't quite help Mike as much since he suffers from the effects as well.
It really does boil down to the rules allowing ranged to do more damage as targets have a tougher time reducing it, but that balances the drawbacks to requiring a pistol or SMG to do that damage. One critical glitch (gun jam!) later, and that advantage is gone.
I guess what it really means is the melee-focused characters all should take flaws like 'agoraphobia' and just try to avoid open spaces with limited cover. It should be easier to be a meleer then, because avoiding those places means you won't run into the ranged characters, as they're all claustrophobic, and rightfully so.
My gm tried balancing things against a gun-heavy group we had made once by having us fight in a tight area. Problem is my roommate's character was weapons specialist with a CMDT and a cyberarm gyromount. Ever seen what happens when a guy with 15 dice with longarms opens up a wide choke full narrow burst against two opponents in an area a bit larger than a large walk in closet? It ain't pretty. And hand to hand is affected by vision modifiers just like anything else, might I add. You're just stuck trying to get reach modifiers and weapon foci instead of smartlinks for melee. You can also critical glitch with your fists as well as you can with anything else. I always take unarmed if at all possible, I really do. But as an offense it firmly falls under the plan B category for just about all of my characters.
@Sterling:
I know in my games I have always allowed Full Defense to be taken while in motion. I didn't think it was a house rule. That way, Mike could be performing Gymnastic Dodges while running (note: not sprinting) toward Roger giving him a little extra ability to survive until he closes.
@Everyone:
And, never underestimate the benefit of a shield. I've seen a character move down a hallway relying on their shield to help them survive until they close. Granted, the character who did so was one of Whipstitch's #4 above: the troll melee god, so he felt reasonable assured of success. 'Course, I did end up killing him while he tried that maneuver once, so it's (clearly) not fool-proof.
I know in my games I have always allowed Full Defense to be taken while in motion. I didn't think it was a house rule. That way, Mike could be performing Gymnastic Dodges while running (note: not sprinting) toward Roger giving him a little extra ability to survive until he closes.
@Everyone:
And, never underestimate the benefit of a shield. I've seen a character move down a hallway relying on their shield to help them survive until they close. Granted, the character who did so was one of Whipstitch's #4 above: the troll melee god, so he felt reasonable assured of success. 'Course, I did end up killing him while he tried that maneuver once, so it's (clearly) not fool-proof.
Is there a way to make a melee based character, who uses firearms, but is stealthy and mobile? That way for turn 1 or 2, i get into position, then jump the bad guys from behind? Remember, I am going to be part of a team, its not just me running around with my sword trying to kill people. So if my team diverts attention, can't I stealth in and attack from behind. I'm thinking invisibility and levitate might be good here.
| QUOTE (klinktastic @ Aug 6 2007, 11:50 AM) |
| Is there a way to make a melee based character, who uses firearms, but is stealthy and mobile? |
Yep, it's perfectly possible. Just about every Street Samurai player in shadowrun sooner or later realizes it's worth giving up a die or two of pure combat ability in order to take some Infiltration dice. Rolling for successes on your first successful sneak attack while your opponent can't toss even a single die to defend themselves (or even better, avoiding the fight period) is an intoxicating experience. It's expensive, but I'd also look into getting yourself a chemical protected, nonconductive and thermal dampened chameleon suit for runs where you know you're going to go the pure unadulterated stealth route. It really sucks if you ever lose the suit because it's so expensive, but it's a wonderful tool to have.
| QUOTE (klinktastic) |
| Is there a way to make a melee based character, who uses firearms, but is stealthy and mobile? That way for turn 1 or 2, i get into position, then jump the bad guys from behind? Remember, I am going to be part of a team, its not just me running around with my sword trying to kill people. So if my team diverts attention, can't I stealth in and attack from behind. I'm thinking invisibility and levitate might be good here. |
...yeah, KK
Agility 5
Strength 5
Ambidexterity Quality
Infiltration 4 (Urban)
Athletics Skill Group 4
Improved Ability Power 2 (Gymnastics)
Pistols 4 (Revolvers)
Unarmed 5 (Martial Arts)
Critical Strike Power 2
Killing Hands Power
Elemental Strike Power ( Electricity)
Blade 5 (Katana)
which is better: elemental strike or penetrating strike?
Sterling, the gist of your argument is that melee is better than ranged in situations where you can't used ranged. Whilst that is a valid observation in that these situations exist, it's not really affecting the conclusion as to which is more powerful as the reverse is exactly as true for ranged combat. If you want to address it on these terms then there are two relevant considerations. The first is which is most powerful when both are possible, and this one we have answered. The second is which has the most situations when the other can't be used.
This latter point we could have a longer debate about, but I have three things to say about it in favour of ranged.
Firstly, several of your example situations such as airports, are not in fact situations where ranged combat can't be used. They are situations where you can't use ranged combat. The guards wandering around with SMGs are perfectly able to do so and gain the power advantage because of it. There are very few environments in a Shadowrun game where it is truely gun-neutral. Almost any situation where you're settling things with melee, people with guns are shortly going to appear which you can't compete with unless you also use ranged weapons.
Secondly, many of the reasons why you couldn't have a gun on you apply equally well to melee weapons. No guns in an airport, but no knives, either. And definitely no combat axe.
That brings us onto my third point which is that if the melee attack is unarmed, then it is normally very weak. If you have bone lacing (often detectable on the same scans that would have picked up your gun), then you can do physical damage. Most people have to work their way up the stun track, however. Even of those that don't, it's a lot slower to kill someone with your bare hands than it is with a gun. That's a big disadvantage in the sorts of situations where for some reason you don't have a gun available, e.g. in the middle of a bar or an airport or on the street.
Personally I pay the extra to get ( Rating 3 ) Pentrating Strike as opposed to Elemental, but in terms of pure power, it's really a toss-up in my opinion. (Provided of course that you ban "Sonic" as being viable as I have.)
| QUOTE (klinktastic @ Aug 6 2007, 01:11 PM) |
| which is better: elemental strike or penetrating strike? |
That one's mostly up to you. Depending on the element chosen, you can get some pretty cool secondary effects, but the penetrating strike reduces armor so that's rather nice, too.
You should note that, in my games -- which are relevant since you'll be playing in one of them, elemental strike only adds the secondary elemental effects to the attack. Thus a fire attack will do damage based on your normal melee attack but will also cause the target to be burning (which may cause further damage) and things like the Sound elemental effect doesn't punch through armor, but does cause the nausea associated with the elemental's secondary effects.
so would electricity act like a shock glove?
Essentially, yes, but actually better (depending on how a GM reads the FAQ). The FAQ basically indicated that you can either punch someone wearing a shock glove or you can zap them (unless I misread it). No punching + shocking, in other words. I'd check the FAQ, but the shadowrun site is down for now. Anyway, the electrical elemental attack actually would produce a punching + shocking attack. I'd still apply non-conductive armor bonuses though.
I like Blast personally. Not very subtle, but you could knock people down a lot easier.
Electricity's countered with Nonconductivity, but Fire has its uses even with the resistant item upgrade. It's flashier though, but itcan give you effects that you may not have on hand as a pure Adept.
Sonic is just too good, no armour resistance and no real possible upgrades to defend against it. Well, unless you have Cyberears with the Dampener in it.
Piercing Strike's always on though.
For the most common elements they're even in power. Halving Impact Armour where it's usually at 6 on most pieces of armour is the same as getting -3 on it with the benefit of kicking more butt the less armour the target is wearing.
It's a toss-up. I'd get both if at all possible. But a Mystic Adept could do something wicked with the Elemental Aura spell; You add your net hits as bonus Elemental damage of a specific type, and the force of the spell damages whoever attacks you in melee range. I'd go with Piercing Strike there.
Electricity's countered with Nonconductivity, but Fire has its uses even with the resistant item upgrade. It's flashier though, but itcan give you effects that you may not have on hand as a pure Adept.
Sonic is just too good, no armour resistance and no real possible upgrades to defend against it. Well, unless you have Cyberears with the Dampener in it.
Piercing Strike's always on though.
For the most common elements they're even in power. Halving Impact Armour where it's usually at 6 on most pieces of armour is the same as getting -3 on it with the benefit of kicking more butt the less armour the target is wearing.
It's a toss-up. I'd get both if at all possible. But a Mystic Adept could do something wicked with the Elemental Aura spell; You add your net hits as bonus Elemental damage of a specific type, and the force of the spell damages whoever attacks you in melee range. I'd go with Piercing Strike there.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Well, as explained in the Symbolic Link thread, Magic is the ultimate distance weapon. But the point remains - you can sniff out guns pretty easy, but the character with Bone Density and the Orthoskin Shock upgrade is as dangerous as always, no matter where he is. |
...or the Adept with several levels of Critical Strike, Penetrating Strike, and Killing Hands.
Ranged Combat is more powerful, but I prefer not having a reason to use it...
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