Hello all, new user here- although I lurked a lot several years back .I'm writing a new character, my first in SR4, who is going to be an adept PI and wanted to know how essential do you think Improved Reflexes(level 1) are for survival in combat?The character concept doesn't lend itself to Synaptic Booster's cost, so it's either that or nothing.

To be clear- I don't want him to be mainly a battle character, but he's supposed to be a pretty good second ranker.I love what they did with Adept powers- in previous editions they made Adepts basically "Uber killing machines", today they are exactly that:Adepts.I think my favorite power is Analytics , with Enthralling Performance and Multi-Tasking sharing second place.

PS.Any 4th ed. incarnation of SRCG?It was extremely helpful in past editions.

Best Character Gen EVER!

Well maybe not every, but it work...last I checked anyway.

Reflex Enhancement or a high Edge is very important to surviving combat.

But seriously, the 26 BP an Adept spends on having Synaptic Booster 1 is probably worth it vs. spending 20 on Improved Reflexes. Especially as it frees up a point on the Power Max and .75 points of Cyberware Essence you can fill with delicious senseware augmentations.

-Frank

Frank, I don't argue it makes sense from BP POV- but it doesn't jive right with the way I "feel" him, for lack of better word.

It depends.

Such a character isn't a heavy hitter in combat situations, so reflexes aren't very vital. Even then, they're really nice to have but you can get by without any. Hell, even a heavy combat type in the main book -- the Weapon Specialist -- doesn't have a single form of boosted reflexes if I'm remembering correctly.

As long as at least a couple of people on the team are good in combat, you can get away with staying behind cover and doing the occasional pop shot. Gives you time to plan what to do when your turn to act comes up. Play smart.

Also, doesn't suppressive fire last until your character's next action pass (even if other characters have more in between them)? If so, that seems to be a really good tactic for someone with low reflexes if they want to contribute to the fight. Another reason why machine pistols aren't totally "worthless" as a few people have claimed here.

...Dr Funk, thinking on the same wavelength, for Media Blitz does have Automatics skill just for that very purpose.

This is why she's a third rank combatant, but first rank when it comes to schmoozing, negotiating, and gathering information (and has a couple of caps of Jazz just in case).

But this is Antongarou's character thread. I'll post Media in her own thread tonight.

Hmmm...I was thinking more in the direction of him using Heavy Pistols when the shit really hit the fan, but good point Dr Funk.He will even have smartgun shades probably, so he can shoot around corners:)

When the shit only hits with mild velocity he has a very nice Supersquirt with Pepper Punch packs.Totally legal, and very effective.

PS.Klinktastic , that program is great- but for some reason it doesn't register the BP cost of attributes.

At the risk diving compleatly off into another "Are IPs mandatory?" conversation, if you want to be a good second tier combatant, if you have 1 IP one of the best things you can do use Suppressive fire, as the affect last until your next pass. That means if you only have one you can suppress an area for the whole turn for only 20 bullets a turn

Yes, I think that's what Dr.Funk was aiming at.One problem I thought about was that it eats bullets like there is no tomorrow- You have to change clips every second turn.That's a lot of ammo.

Well it seems you already know of Multi-tasking which should accomplish most of what you want with your 'dicking' around.

I don't think it's essential to have an extra IP for such a character, and would probably be costly to do so.

He can even be more of a use by doing what he's already doing better. For example, if he has Astral Perception he may act as a second set of magic eyes out there, watching your backs. Enhanced Perception could let him notice things your buddies wouldn't. And the two will make you a damn good assenser.

Or hell, Commanding Voice could let him do some funny stuff.

I'm thinking about giving him Astral, and he already has some enhanced perception, as well as Analytics, which is extremely useful to any character searching for information.Good point about commanding voice, but I chose Cool Resolve instead- he'll probably get that sometime down the road, though.I was simply trying to make sure combat in SR4 could be survived successfully without extra IPs.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Eidetic Sense Memory is extremely cool?

I wasn't thinking money Frank.I was thinking time wasted, and weight and profile as well, although they're somewhat secondary in this edition- but 5-6 clips jostling in your pockets tend to be conspicuous.And god forbid you run out of filled clips in the middle of battle.

Have you thought of perhaps supporting combat differently? Won't be subtle, but lugging around the semi-automatic grenade launcher can let you lob covering (thermal) smoke, high explosives, even gas.

Granted, it's unsubtle as all hell. But with something that heavy you'd be making an impact with just one IP. With heavy weapons as your "main" combat skill you can still devote a few points for Pistols or Automatics, with the latter being the favourite.

Just a thought. Most of the "support" characters I end up doing specialize in either thrown weaponry or grenade launchers.

He's a PI, not ex-merc.So thanks but no, thanks.He *may* know how to handle Steyr TMP, but he definitely won't know how to use heavy weapons at the beginning- learning is an altogether different issue.And he will know at least the basics of lobbing grenades.

I know it totally doesn't fit in with your character concept, but an ares alpha for the full auto and grenade launching is the best support gun in 4e.

For your character though, have you though about going Mystic Adept? If you only put one point of magic into magician you could still get astral perception, watcher spirits, analyze device, analyze magic, spirits of man to search, and wrinky dink wards that you know got smashed.

I'll also vote for a touch of cyber. Augmentation lists a ton of things that boost perception and intuition-based skills. The attention coprocessor alone is worth its weight in almost any archetype.

Actually one of my players built a detective adept. He traded away for 1 Essence worth of senseware and the took: BOTH memory powers, multitasking, astral perception, analytics, improved perception, and some senses not covered by his 'ware. He rolls buckets o' dice for perception tests, and is well-rounded enough in other areas. He's got a lot of contacts and decent social skills so he'll probably make a decent face as well (The other possible face in the party is the Elven conjurer.).

What good does 3-d memory do when you've got eidetic sense memory?One of the reasons I didn't take it was because it looked redundant to me.

Eidetice Sense Memory let's you "relive" the experience from your perspective; could be made redundant by cybereyes and ears on record mode. 3D memory however let's you "re-experience" a small space.

My detective also had the Photographic Memory quality just to cover all the tracks. I patterned him after Adrian Monk.

A Mystic Adept really would be beneficial. But you'd still have to sink a Power point to get Astral Perception. So you're looking at putting 2 points aside at least, 1 for Astral Perception, the other for Magic. You'll also need a high Assensing skill to get the most out of it. But on the plus side he can cast spells, counterspell, and summon.

Nifty, but it might not be your thing if you want a really keen, but not too fancy, gumshoe.

On the note of combat effectiveness and having 1IP, what if you liberally used Take Aim actions?

I can't remember if this is starting legal, but you could have your character take pistols(SA) 6(+2) for 8 dice to start giving you up to +4 dice per take aim.

So you take your Predator and aim for two IPS giving you 12 dice to throw around. You could A) fire B) call up to a +4DV attack C) negate armor or D) Knock something out of their grasp.

With option A you're rolling 12 dice + agility which is pretty juicy.

With B) you turn a 5P, -1AP bullet into a 9P, -1AP which is seriously gonna hurt, especially considering you've still got your initial 8 dice + agility to pump it up further if you get lucky.

On the same note, you could turn that into an 11S, +1AP attack with gel rounds. That's pretty nasty, especially if they're not wearing much armor. If that person happens to be the enemy mage, good luck casting spells and resisting drain (unless they're overcasting, at which point it's still a pain). You'll probably disrupt their spells too considering you've got a damn good chance of knocking them on their rear end.

With C) you could load up your gun with stun bullets giving you 7S and if you successfully bypass their armor, you'll circumvent your now +1AP mod.

With D) You've got some pretty sweet action going with gel rounds since to the best of my knowledge, your predator is dealing a 7S attack to their hands and all you need to do is beat their strength to make'em drop their toy. Granted they're still getting full armor (bleh) but you're still rolling 8 dice + agility and the -4 mod for knocking the object out of their grasp is countered by your meticulous aim.

Kinda hard to fire a weapon you no longer have. It'd be pretty cool if you somehow managed to get them to fumble a grenade for whatever reason.

Even if you start with Pistols(SA) 4(+2) that's still 3 take aim actions which might actually be better because you spend your first IP aiming, half of your next one doing the same, and then you fire with your remaining SA.

I dunno how your GM'd rule taking aim but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you don't need to keep your gun trained on them the entire time as I imagine a lot of it involves concentrating and focusing more intently on where they are in general so you're making a more accurate shot.

Of course this does mean you spend your time exposed BUT if you take your smart glasses and manage to be able to fire from around the corner that problem is solved.

Sure you won't be dropping people left and right but you can disable and that's just as good. Taking two IPs to take someone out with 4SAs or 2CAs is just as good as taking 2IPs to take someone out with 1SA.

If you go for the extra half and drag it into a 3rd IP, you can fire with your +4 bonus and then make another called shot right after that (might be a GM call), only you won't get any positives from extended aiming.

Also, don't forget that on page 150 of SR4

Wow, thanks for all those ideas Cursedsoul, they look extremely useful- and really remind me of various PIs I read about.And thanks to everyone else for their various inputs, too.

On a side note, does anybody know if there is an equivalent of magnesium flares or similar that can be used to cause people to go blind, maybe like those flash grenades from CC?

OK, but I'm not going to count on my GM doing that exact interpretation.If it comes out in the official errata Harry(my PC) will get it with his next PP, but currently it simply isn't worth it.

Just to add my 2 nuyen to the original question.
If you want to be good support in a firefight (assuming moderate quality opposition) you will NEED at least one of
1. Extra IPs (multiple actions)
2. Burst fire weapons (suppressive fire)
3. Area affect (grenades or area spells)

So if you want to use Heavy Pistol as your 'loaded for bear' weapon, you NEED to have multiple IPs.
Or if you don't want to spend on the IPs take a burst fire or Area of Affect weapon. You did need a lot of skill for suppression, just a bunch of ammo
One suggestion would be to build

Pistol / Semi automatic 4/6
Automatics 1

carry the weapons you suggested normally, and have an SMG and three or four clips in a bag for when you are needing the heavy kit

Even without the fix, 3D Memory can do something ESM can't: Allow you to make new Perception rolls and learn things you didn't notice the first time, especially if there was some kind of distraction present then that isn't now (like wound penalties).

Just grab yourself a troll and duct tape some floodlights to his chest. Doubles as a flashpack AND a handy mobile wall.