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virgileso
I noticed something in some of the 4th edition character sheet conversion, where there were several lines dedicated to what stocks a player had. Is this some old 3rd edition rule, or have I missed some aspect of character design?
neko128
I don't remember seeing it in the rules for 4E, but it's commented on any number of times in the fluff (again, mostly not in 4E, but that's largely because certain books haven't been re-published yet). There were several Shadowland posters who constantly posited that runners should own small amounts of stock (even single shares) in just about every Corp out there, so that they could get shareholder information and annual reports and similar stuff.

Personally, I never saw the point; if it's available publically or to shareholders, why couldn't your average shadowrunner just hack it out of some public library or some jackass's home terminal (nowadays, Commlink)?
Cheops
yeah, I never understood that either. Unless maybe in SR the corporate filings go to the Corporate Court and MAYBE it doesn't make that info publicly available. The extraterritorialty thing poses all sorts of questions for corporate governance.

But in RL, I could log off Dumpshock, wander over to the TSX and ask them to mail me and give me a PDF of every single filing that they have on record for free. You don't have to own stocks for it.

The only other reason I could see for common shares, apart from capital gains and dividends, would be voting rights and attending annual shareholder meetings. However, the amount of stocks that an AVERAGE runner would have would make no difference in voting. All it would do if a runner showed up is allow security to know which runners are sniffing around their corp. Add to the fact that not all shareholder meetings are going to be in the same town or country makes it difficult for highly illegal, SINless persons to get to them. (ie. all the Japanacorps would only hold their meetings in Japan).
Solomon Greene
If you're really interested, track down Corporate Shadowfiles. It has a wonderful write-up on stocks and the benefits of owning, done in incredible detail.
Sma
I vaguely remember something about stock being used as money (corp scrip) instead of the almighty nuyen, being mentioned. Helps with locking your employees into your retail chain.

virgileso
What's the difference between Corporate Shadowfiles and Corporate Download?
Ophis
One of them comes with a lecture in basic economics. Download is more data about ho the world works. Shadowfiles is mostly run related. They both rock but they rock differently.
Ol' Scratch
They're two separate books for two different editions of the game (well, Corporate Shadowfiles may have been around during the switch between 2nd and 3rd, I honestly don't remember). They both have their distinctive flavors and focus on information, though I prefer Corporate Download.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (neko128)
so that they could get shareholder information and annual reports and similar stuff.

Actually, it was recommended to gain physical entry...
WeaverMount
about the source books which one give full stats (not A rating) for corps?
streetangelj
That would be Corp Shadowfiles. (The first one.) Also the cooler one in my opinion.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (streetangelj)
That would be Corp Shadowfiles. (The first one.) Also the cooler one in my opinion.

...I agree. It also has a framework and guidelines so you can design your own corporations if you are so inclined. This is how I developed the Olympus Group Consortium (of which Aeon Technologies and Aeon Labs are a part) for my campaign settings.
WeaverMount
thanx I'll look for it
Slump
I think the biggest reason for shadowrunners to own stock is because you have inside information -- you know that smallish corp X is going to have a serious research setback or lose alot of materials, and that smallish corp Y is going to have a pretty big advance or get an unpredictably large chunk of the marketplace. So you buy corp X on margin, and buy stock in corp Y, and make extra money going both directions.
Cheops
QUOTE (Slump)
I think the biggest reason for shadowrunners to own stock is because you have inside information -- you know that smallish corp X is going to have a serious research setback or lose alot of materials, and that smallish corp Y is going to have a pretty big advance or get an unpredictably large chunk of the marketplace. So you buy corp X on margin, and buy stock in corp Y, and make extra money going both directions.

DO NOT buy stock X on margin. Buy stock Y on margin and sell stock X short. This is assuming that the results of the run are going to cause unexpected earnings surprises. Margin is playing with borrowed money so it lets you buy MORE of stock Y (the one that goes up). This is called leveraging your position. Since you know that stock X is going to have a negative surprise you sell it short, which means that you sell the stock without owning any of it (or more than you own) and then buy it back later to cover your position. Of course, to sell short the stock had to be going up in the first place.

You can make a lot of money doing this but you have to keep the trades very small or else do it through some sort of VERY clean brokerage. This is insider trading taken to its ultimate extreme and the Corporate Court and National Exchange would be VERY upset about stuff like this.
Penta
Must echo Cheops. IRL, the SEC is -very- vigilant about insider trading. If a trade looks even the tiniest bit suspicious, they knock on the door with an 'informal' inquiry.

The corps -all- have a vested interest in keeping the markets clean and fair, so this is the one time I don't see extraterritoriality reducing regulation.
Adarael
Especially when now you can be fined for several million, and in the future your family can be fined for several million after you die under mysterious circumstances.
hyzmarca
I never got the point of the whole insider trading thing. I mean, what's the point of having insider information if you can't use it?

Remember, the Corporate Court is run by corporate insiders who don't want to lose huge amounts of money. Insider trading is probably legal.
Slump
Got those two reversed somehow, must have been a brain fart. Anyway, shadow brokerage firms are where it's at when it comes to discrete buying and selling of stocks based on inside information. If one person move just those two stocks, then yes, it will look suspicious, but when a giant mutual funds moves those two stocks, and hundreds of others, it doesn't look nearly as suspicious. Heck, I bet most shadow brokerage firms are just a small group inside legitimate brokerage firms that do their activities without the firm knowing about it. Plus, the money trail can probably point to whoever you want it to point to, so you can probably get the SEC equivalent to knock on someone you don't like's doors, possibly engaging in yet another job while you get on with your original job. Talk about making your money work for you!
Zen Shooter01
This gets into the Day Job issue. Sure, runners may have inside information (if we burn down their factory on Wednesday night, their stock will be down Thursday morning), and they may want to use it. Besides that, runners are likely to have a lot of liquid cash, and regardless of insider info might want to see it earning 5%.

But...do you as the GM want to go to the trouble?

Don't forget that just because you burned down the factory doesn't mean the stock will suffer. The corporation will have redundancy built in, insurance policies, and a PR department, all to minimize the damage from something like that.

Anyway, if you want to do it, I'd suggest inventing a Knowledge Skill, Investing, and let the PC roll it once a month. Every hit increases the value of their portfolio by 1%. Glitches cost 2%, critical glitches 5%. Modify the dice pool or threshold for inside information or market events - the assassination of Big D would have shocked the market, for example, so -3 dice pool that month.

That's just off the top of my head.
Zen Shooter01
Come to think of it, the Investing test should be threshold 2.
Buster
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I never got the point of the whole insider trading thing. I mean, what's the point of having insider information if you can't use it?

Remember, the Corporate Court is run by corporate insiders who don't want to lose huge amounts of money. Insider trading is probably legal.

Even today, "insider trading" is only illegal in the U.S. and a few other countries. Everyone else considers it fair game. Even in the U.S. the laws are incredibly vague and contradictory.

In dystopian 2070, I'm sure insider trading laws went in the trash heap along with civil liberties and other anti-corporate sentiments.
Big D
More likely, the laws on the books are very strict, but only enforced selectively.

Also, note that you're not gonna move Azzie stock with your run. You *might* move small no-name company that happens to be 51%-owned by a subsidiary of a holding company wholly owned by a brokerage whose stock is held by a combination of AZT and some Azzie directors and possibly a VP who wrangled a personal stake in it years ago to line their pockets.

So, finding a stock that will be impacted by your run, that won't raise immediate flags (stock is poorly traded except for your "blip"), isn't off-the-market, and will actually move in the way that you want it to move (gotta love those PR people), isn't as easy as it might sound.

Heck, you could steal Red's new secret formula on a run for Blue, and their stock price might still drop on the market the next day if Red had a run of their own going at the same time to contaminate a bottler with aspartame. Or, of course, your run could go south, or you could get paid for your run but Blue discovers that the new formula is really for New Coke.

Short version: you can fix a horse race, but the mob may whack you for it. Fixing a company's stock, while certainly possible, is a lot harder.
Cheops
Have to echo Big D on that one. The Megacorps are pretty much untouchable by regular runners. Small, local corps on the other hand or subsidiaries are possible.

Insider trading is illegal in any country with a modern economy. Governments do try to stop it as much as possible but insider trading is VERY ambiguous. That's why it is so hard to legislate for it. The CFA Standards defines it as Material Nonpublic Information. The problem is the definition of Material can be nebulous. And since it is a criminal charge in most jurisdictions it means you have to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" instead of on balance of probabilities. At the very least the offender will lose their certifications.

Insider trading does go on and probably is fairly rampant in SR. But it still has to be behind closed doors. Corporations in SR are still dependent on modern methods of financing AFAIK which means stocks and bonds. Insider trading erodes investor confidence in the secondary markets (ie. NYSE) and would result in low liquidity which leads to lower prices. This in turn affects the sell-side of the equation. If stocks command less money in the secondary markets then the investment banks that are underwriting the stock issue have to sell the subscription for less money which means that the issuing corporation receives less money on the issue. This means less money for investment in new plant, equipment, and other business ventures, which means investment goes down, leading to a drop in the GNP which lowers the standard of living. Less disposable money means less savings, which means less money in the financial markets. It's a nasty cycle.

Based on the poverty inherent in SR I'd say that there is definitely insider trading and it seems that the standard of living has gone down (evidenced by the increase in cost for Low Lifestyle). I'd wager that that was largely because of the Crash however, and not insider traders.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cheops)
Have to echo Big D on that one. The Megacorps are pretty much untouchable by regular runners. Small, local corps on the other hand or subsidiaries are possible.

Insider trading is illegal in any country with a modern economy. Governments do try to stop it as much as possible but insider trading is VERY ambiguous. That's why it is so hard to legislate for it. The CFA Standards defines it as Material Nonpublic Information. The problem is the definition of Material can be nebulous. And since it is a criminal charge in most jurisdictions it means you have to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" instead of on balance of probabilities. At the very least the offender will lose their certifications.

Insider trading does go on and probably is fairly rampant in SR. But it still has to be behind closed doors. Corporations in SR are still dependent on modern methods of financing AFAIK which means stocks and bonds. Insider trading erodes investor confidence in the secondary markets (ie. NYSE) and would result in low liquidity which leads to lower prices. This in turn affects the sell-side of the equation. If stocks command less money in the secondary markets then the investment banks that are underwriting the stock issue have to sell the subscription for less money which means that the issuing corporation receives less money on the issue. This means less money for investment in new plant, equipment, and other business ventures, which means investment goes down, leading to a drop in the GNP which lowers the standard of living. Less disposable money means less savings, which means less money in the financial markets. It's a nasty cycle.

Based on the poverty inherent in SR I'd say that there is definitely insider trading and it seems that the standard of living has gone down (evidenced by the increase in cost for Low Lifestyle). I'd wager that that was largely because of the Crash however, and not insider traders.

I'm going to disagree with the assertion that insider trading. Many traders make it a policy to follow insiders and mimic their trades on the assumption that insider trading will be more common than not. When stock is sold be insiders, this erodes the value of the stock, since many others will follow suit. But, when stock is bought by insiders, it greatly increases the value of the stock, because many others will follow suit.

This makes the market far more reliable and predictable than it would be otherwise, by revealing information on future stock value without leaking proprietary details. Reliability and predictability can only increase consumer confidence.

The problems arise when insiders manipulate stock price by making trades that will not benefit them directly on the assumptions that others will follow suit, essentially bluffing to artificially change a stock's value.
Big D
The current brouhaha is a good example of the effects of confidence (aka trust). When different parties within a market generally trust each other, things run smoothly. But a lack of trust--whether driven by criminal actions (Enron, Tyco, etc.) or by legal-but-economically-unsound activities (overselling mortgages to create throughput and profit, then constantly selling the risk to another industry until they get fed up with it), or even by blind, senseless panic (some bank runs)--will do bad, bad things to an economy, and almost *everybody* in it, including those who are sound and run a tight ship (because can you *trust* that they do?).

That's why things like insider laws exist. If they don't, eventually people willing to slightly (or majorly) abuse the system build up a lack of trust that wrecks the whole system and takes years to rebuild.
hyzmarca
Insider trading does not, in itself, create a lack of trust. It may just create more trust.
Falsification of financial statements, stock manipulation, and similar practices destroy trust. But, if the insiders are trading honestly, one can gain a great deal of knowledge by observing their trades. If an insider buys a stock, everyone can be reasonably sure that the value of that stock is likely to go up. If an insider sells a stock, one can be reasonably sure that the value of that stock will go down.
Penta
If they are trading honestly. That is a big if.
Serial_Peacemaker
Just to be technical are the Runners actually engaging in Insider trading? They aren't officers in the company, and they most likely haven't been given information by officers in the company. So at least the stock trading they have engaged in most likely isn't illegal. After all you don't have any particular duty to the stock holders as a Runner.
hyzmarca
It would probably be considered a violation of Article 3 of the standardized Irregular Asset contract.
Serial_Peacemaker
Your runners use contracts? Man used to be handshake business, people today.
Cheops
QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker)
Just to be technical are the Runners actually engaging in Insider trading? They aren't officers in the company, and they most likely haven't been given information by officers in the company. So at least the stock trading they have engaged in most likely isn't illegal. After all you don't have any particular duty to the stock holders as a Runner.

Yes they are. They have material nonpublic information (we just stole their prototype and sold it to their rival) which another investor could reasonably want to help make their decision about what to do with the stock. That's the key issue in insider trading arguments.

Would knowledge of this information affect the valuation of the stock?

In Strong Form Market Efficiency like hyzmarca is talking about then the answer to this question is NO. There would be no insider information in a perfectly Strong Form Efficient market since by definition the market would be perfectly adjusted for all historical, public, and non-public information.

How is insider information harmful even if the stock price went up? It isn't--but only if you already held that stock or bought it before its move. So if you are the CFO of a major corporation and the "street" (analysts in the secondary markets) are anticipating sluggish Q3 earnings but you are currently working on those earnings reports and know that they aren't. There'll still be another week before those earning are announced but you go out and buy a ton of stock through hidden means. The street would have your stock undervalued on the anticipation of slow earnings so you buy low. A week later you announce the earnings and the stock soars but the majority of the market doesn't get to act on that info until the stock price jumps up. A few people, the CFO included, make tons of money, but the vast majority make little or no returns. Later it comes to light that the CFO violated the trading rules and goes to jail.

As a participant in the market this erodes your confidence. It would be like playing at a blackjack table that has a sign on it stating "This dealer is a first class card sharp and is cheating you." Would you play at that table? What if the casino said that "We have 10 Blackjack tables and 5 of them are rigged so that you can't win." Would you play at that casino? You have no way of knowing which ones are rigged and which aren't. How confident does that make you in risking your money in that casino?

To take it one step further. Let's say that 5 tables are fair and 5 are rigged so the players always win and that the casino goes into rooms randomly during the night and gives the occupants a tip about which tables are rigged and which aren't. So we know that 5 tables are fair and 5 are rigged. We also know that certain people are aware of which is which. We don't know and now have to pick where to gamble our money. We can assume that the tables that are busiest have all the "insiders" playing at them. Unfortunately, all those tables are full, so all of us "non-insiders" have to go on a wait list until an insider leaves that table. We now have the choice to not play blackjack or to risk our money at one of the non-rigged tables.

Does that analogy help at all? Just because an insider takes an action it doesn't mean that we can get in on it. That means that all the non-insiders, the majority of the market, is playing by a different set of rules and ones that are FAR riskier. As a result less people want to play at the non-rigged tables (invest in the rest of the market) because they know that all the good tables are gone (all the stocks where an arbitrage opportunity exists). As a result the market overall loses liquidity which is what makes a market work.

You can still make money by buying and holding a stock if it is properly priced and a good investment. However arbitrage is where the abnormally high returns are. It is also the abitrageurs who give liquidity to the market as the buy and sell stocks in an attempt to buy low, sell high.

whew that was long winded...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker @ Aug 22 2007, 09:49 PM)
Your runners use contracts? Man used to be handshake business, people today.

The advantage of using a written contract is that, so long as you remain within the limits prescribed by the Corporate Interaction Accord and are within the spirit of the contract, you are legally indemnified from all civil and criminal penalties relating to your performance of your contracted duties, so long as you are operating within a jurisdiction that recognizes the Accord.

This means that, if you run against Ares and you have a contract with your Johnson's corporation and you don't violate the Accord, then Ares can't prosecute you. Ares can, however, shoot you in the face or disappear you forever.

It also gives you a recourse in case the Johnson double crosses you. Contract courts tend to not enforce handshakes. But, if you have a contract, it is fully enforceable in the event of a double-cross.
Zen Shooter01
Sure, of course. The court always sides against Mr. Smith and on the side of Bonecrusher the cyberpsychotic freelance terrorist when Mr. Smith cheats Mr. Bonecrusher out of his paid vacation.

Courts that are owned and operated by the corporations function in the best interest of the corporations.
Big D
Also, runners are deniable, expendable, (somewhat) skilled resources. Why give up the deniable part, when that's the biggest reason to use them instead of an internal corp team?
Serial_Peacemaker
Well that was my point about the Runners not having a contract, who would want put what they are doing in writing? However, I have to wonder when is it okay to use information you have on a stock? I mean what sort of information is considered okay? Could you for example know that say one of a company's major feed stocks is going to take a dive, and use that information?
kzt
QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker)
I mean what sort of information is considered okay? Could you for example know that say one of a company's major feed stocks is going to take a dive, and use that information?

You're a crook, not an executive. The question I'd ask is 'will I get caught?' and 'will I make money?'
Serial_Peacemaker
Well obviously a runner really isn't likely to give a damn. However this is mostly curiousity of when/what such information it is okay to use as an investor. Also it would bite to get away cleanly with murder, arson, smuggling, and finally get the screws turned on you due to stock fraud. After all they got Capone on tax evasion.
Jaid
QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker)
Well obviously a runner really isn't likely to give a damn. However this is mostly curiousity of when/what such information it is okay to use as an investor. Also it would bite to get away cleanly with murder, arson, smuggling, and finally get the screws turned on you due to stock fraud. After all they got Capone on tax evasion.

the probability of getting away with just about *anything* once they have found you and can therefore actually put you into a court of law is rather a moot point.

for one thing, they're probably more likely to just shoot you. for another thing, it would be really hard to prove that they are guilty of insider trading without showing the source of their knowledge, and in this case proving the source of their knowledge most likely includes proving crimes such as breaking and entering, theft, assault, quite possibly murder/manslaughter, illegal possession of weapons/cyberware/software/etc, fraud/identity theft, trespassing, resisting arrest, speeding/reckless driving, assaulting a police officer, smuggling (there's a good chance you brought stuff across some border illegaly after all), vandalism, and probably a dozen other crimes that i can't think of (if not more).

so really, if they can prove you had the insider knowledge as a result of a shadowrun you did, i have to say that the insider trading charge is the least of your worries.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker @ Aug 23 2007, 12:16 PM)
Well that was my point about the Runners not having a contract, who would want put what they are doing in writing?

Megamedia Incorporated, for one. They also demand that the shadowruns they contract for be recorded so that they can make movies from the footage.
It's in Queen Euphoria.
Zen Shooter01
The question of what is or is not kosher in the 6th world when it comes to insider knowledge isn't possible to answer, because it's certain that the laws governing the issue have been thoroughly rewritten from today.
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