Ted Stewart
Aug 23 2007, 02:32 AM
According to LOS rules, the character must be able to see the target without digital enhancement, however they can use optical enhancement. I suspect this rule was put in to allow mages with cybereyes to still be able to cast spells,
Mage sight goggles allow a character to look around a corner 30m away, and do so using fibre optics. As a result, it is an analog signal.
Does this mean a mage can launch mana bolts, acid streams, etc through mage sight goggles?
If so, how does this manifest? Does the power behind the spell materialize on the target directly? Does it fly from the mage directly, ignoring any objects between the mage and target? Or is the spell somehow channeled through the goggles themselves?
I can't imagine a stream of acid flying from the mage's hands, through a fiber optic line, and then spraying out the other end. There's going to be collateral damage there, there's just got to be.
So how do you folks run this? It seems ridiculously easy to abuse from my point of view. Casting spells through a tiny hole in a brick wall comes to mind, with the mage actually 30m along the wall so blowing a panther round through it is still extremely unlikely to hit.
Buster
Aug 23 2007, 02:36 AM
A mage definitely can target spells through mage goggles and other fiber optics. In SR4, spells do not "travel" but originate at the target. Therefore you need LOS through a non-digital optic (or ritual magic) to target the spell, but the spell itself "erupts" at the target.
Adarael
Aug 23 2007, 02:40 AM
With the exception of indrect combat spells, unfortunately. Indirect spells such as lightning bolt, acid stream, etc, do travel a path. Hence the ability of the target to dodge. It doesn't explicitly state this, but it says "Treat it like a ranged attack." While this is open to interpretation, I've always dealt with it as originating from the caster and travelling in a straight line.
These are the only exception to the otherwise clear-cut 'see it, blast it' rules. Mana bolts, balls, and all the other non-indirect spells will whack your target just fine.
Kyoto Kid
Aug 23 2007, 02:40 AM
...ok going out on a limb here...
Maybe what they need is spell ranges like that other game uses. After all, Mundane weapons have range limits/modifiers, why shouldn't spells? That would rein in magic a bit. After all, isn't the mage channelling the mana? Therefore it should come form the mage as it does in every other game system.
Adarael
Aug 23 2007, 02:44 AM
If you have a copy of Grimoire I suggest using the range table for casting in that. Since vision modifiers affect spellcasting, it also wouldn't be hard to apply some of those to the casting. I believe the table went something like this:
0-100m: -1
100-200m: -2
300-500m: -3
500-1000m: -4
Or something. My grimoire is in a box in the closet, and I don't wanna dig it up at the moment.
Kyoto Kid
Aug 23 2007, 02:49 AM
...I'll have to dig my old copy up & houserule it in.
I still have an issue though with spells manifesting themselves at the target rather than from the caster. It contradicts all notions of magic that I ever read about in fantasy fiction or dealt with in other games.
Adarael
Aug 23 2007, 02:51 AM
That's actually pretty much verbatim from 2nd Edition Grimoire or Awakenings - I forget which. Most of the evidence from 3rd and 4th support it being the case in subsequent editions, as well. Especially the ever popular section, "Why magic doesn't look like it does on the trid" - namely that most spells are very hard to see, if they can be seen at all.
Strobe
Aug 23 2007, 03:48 AM
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
...I'll have to dig my old copy up & houserule it in.
I still have an issue though with spells manifesting themselves at the target rather than from the caster. It contradicts all notions of magic that I ever read about in fantasy fiction or dealt with in other games. |
Well in the-game-that-shall-not-be-named a fireball originated at the target. You just point at the ground near them and boom…
-Strobe
Big D
Aug 23 2007, 04:11 AM
Uhh, no. You launch a bead-sized projectile that flies straight out and blows up. Like an airburst grenade.
They even make you take an attack roll to fit it through tight spaces.
Ted Stewart
Aug 23 2007, 04:13 AM
QUOTE (Strobe) |
Well in the-game-that-shall-not-be-named a fireball originated at the target. You just point at the ground near them and boom… |
Well, it was actually a tiny bead that flew unerringly to where the mage pointed and then exploded on impact. So it was still originating from the mage similar to a thrown grenade.
Albeit significantly more lame. *Rolls eyes*
Kyoto Kid
Aug 23 2007, 05:20 AM
QUOTE (Strobe) |
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 23 2007, 12:49 PM) | ...I'll have to dig my old copy up & houserule it in.
I still have an issue though with spells manifesting themselves at the target rather than from the caster. It contradicts all notions of magic that I ever read about in fantasy fiction or dealt with in other games. |
Well in the-game-that-shall-not-be-named a fireball originated at the target. You just point at the ground near them and boom…
-Strobe
|
...which edition. As I recall, spellcasters always had the spell originate at their hand/wand/staff or whatever they used.
Big D
Aug 23 2007, 06:21 AM
Heh... maybe they'll do that in 4E, since rumor has it that they're essentially copying the mechanics from MMOs like WoW.
Marwynn
Aug 23 2007, 06:29 AM
Not well, too.
Wasabi
Aug 23 2007, 10:24 AM
If its trated like a grenade I wonder if its reasonable to say that the mage could lob it around the corner using the mage sight goggles like a smartgun link to aim around the corner.
Also, keep in mind casting through mage sight goggles has a penalty of something like -2 dice.
Ted Stewart
Aug 23 2007, 10:48 PM
QUOTE (Wasabi) |
If its trated like a grenade I wonder if its reasonable to say that the mage could lob it around the corner using the mage sight goggles like a smartgun link to aim around the corner.
Also, keep in mind casting through mage sight goggles has a penalty of something like -2 dice. |
Does somebody have a page number for that rule?
Buster
Aug 23 2007, 11:10 PM
p. 324:
QUOTE (SR4) |
These optical aids have many uses, one of which is enabling a magician to obtain optical (non-electronic) line of sight for spellcasting from cover. Spellcasting targeted through optics this way suffers a –3 dice pool modifier.
|
If you are asking for the magic grenade rules, there is no such thing. That would have to be a custom spell.
Jaid
Aug 24 2007, 05:16 AM
QUOTE (Buster) |
If you are asking for the magic grenade rules, there is no such thing. That would have to be a custom spell. |
i would argue that there isn't really any way to make "magical grenades" as a spell... unless we're talking about an anchored spell, that is.
Wasabi
Aug 24 2007, 09:48 AM
So what is the point of origin of a spell... the eyes of the caster (which allows firing around corners with magesight goggles) or the hand of the caster?
Buster
Aug 24 2007, 01:10 PM
Neither. The spell erupts at the target and does not travel from the caster at all.
Eryk the Red
Aug 24 2007, 02:17 PM
Unless it's indirect. Then it most definitely does travel.
Fortune
Aug 24 2007, 03:10 PM
QUOTE (Wasabi) |
So what is the point of origin of a spell... the eyes of the caster (which allows firing around corners with magesight goggles) or the hand of the caster? |
Well, in the case of those Indirect Spells that do travel, I would say that the origin is the spellcaster's Aura, whatever part of him that may be the most convenient (keeping the LOS rules in mind).
Buster
Aug 24 2007, 03:14 PM
QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
Unless it's indirect. Then it most definitely does travel. |
No, the spell effect is travelling, not the spell.
Wasabi
Aug 25 2007, 03:10 AM
Thanks for the clarification!
TheDrake
Aug 25 2007, 04:55 PM
Here's the table from the Grimoire for ranges.
QUOTE (Grimoire - Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy) |
Range in Meters Modifier 0-150 none 151-300 -2 301-600 -4 601-1250 -6 1251-2500 -8 2501-5000 -10 5001+ Target not visible |
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