I liked the Cannon Companion's martial arts section. Any word on whether something similar will be in Arsenal? I've always wondered about the secret martial arts techniques from "The Tome of Terrin"....I suspect they may represent new adept powers or metamagic techniques.

They probably will be, though I'm not sure it's been officially announced.

I certainly hope so.

Gah! I'd prefer not, though I can't really complain if they're nice and optional as I don't want to deny anyone else the rules they want... Personally though, I'm quite happy with it being abstract and players being able to describe their character's fighting style however they choose. Plus real world martial arts styles don't translate into convenient game mechanics.

"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

I have to admit I've always been very fond of purchased maneuvers as a game mechanic. However unrealistic they may be, they're a very nice way to allow specialization. Martial arts are, after all, often focused more on offense or defense; kick- or punch- or throw-focused; more suited for one situation or another; translate well to one form of weapon or another... Maneuvers let you specialize your character however you'd like. A decent GM will stop an annoying plumber of a player from abusing the rules (or punish them for it), while a roleplaying or character-developing player can get a lot of mileage out of it.

Some of us would really like to see better rules to translate styles that we have seen, read about, or practiced.

For example, I've studied Escrima on an off since 1991. Right now I'm taking a Modern Arnis class and loving it. The thing about Escrima/Arnis/Kali is that the style teaches techniques that work with rattan sticks/machetes/short swords, knives, and open hand. AND the maneuvers you commit to muscle memory work almost exactly the same if you are using one stick, two sticks, stick and knife, stick and open hand, knife and open hand, two knives, or two open hands.

For something like that in SR, you'd need Unarmed(Escrima), Blades(Escrima), Clubs(Escrima), AND have to split your dice pool in half when using two weapons. See, the mechanics just fall apart in this type of scenario.

Studying filipino martial arts? Being filipino I've wanted to learn arnis/eskrima for a while but it's tough finding a teacher.

Game mechanics-wise it could be abstracted away but that's not as satisfying. Honestly I don't think Arsenal could include a full-fledged martial arts supplement but a few optional rules, some manuevers we could work with, might spice up the melee aspect of combat.

Melee combat skills don't have open specializations.

They have a fixed set and that's it...

I think it is also a matter of how much melee combat is a central point of your games. I for one would stick with knasser and would refrain from using any special move based martial arts rules mainly because in my games most fights are based around ranged combat and everybody knows what happens to the guy who brings a knife to a gunfight...
In that matter I'd say it's a decision you have to make within your group whether you'd like to focus on melee a bit more.
And let's not forget that physical adepts have a great range of different melee-based "special moves" if that's the aspect you're thinking about.

The knife guy stabs the gun guy to death before dying of his own wounds?

If they are (and they should be since you can already specialize in a particular martial art with Unarmed Combat with no cited reason for why), I really hope they're redone from the ground up rather than being a rehash of the Cannon Companion rules.

personally I always liked the "the knife guy whips his knife at the throat of gun boy"

(picture the scene at the end of V for Vendetta in SR, I actually LOVE letting things like that happen because the underdogs are my favorite)

I like underdogs... provided they're not underdogs only due to their own stupidity. Bringing a knife when you know there's likely to be a gunfight isn't likely to draw any sympathy points from my withered li'l heart.

"Well, God bless your crooked little heart/St. Louis got the best of me/I miss your broken-china voice..."

All this fuss over martial arts. Tsk! Before the Cannon Companion SR didn't even have martial arts rules worth speaking of.

Is it 10 below and falling, AH? By the Riverside motel? You know, I heard you gotta hold on...

I was thinking that for a make-shift martial arts rules system you could just use your Essence and Adept Powers as your basis.

I feel that some Adept Powers just don't feel "magical" in nature and are better represented as Combat Maneuvers or Martial Arts.

You could make powers like Killing Hands, Blind Fighting, Berserk, Counterstike, Inertia Strike, and others into viable Martial Art Maneuvers. The advantage Adepts would have is that they could exceed the normal limits and not have as many restrictions. As an idea example, you could take Killing Hands and have Critical Strike up to level 3, but Killing Hands for mundanes wouldn't be able to affect Astral beings.

The max level would be your Attack Skill divided by 2, rounded up. So if you had Unarmed Strike or Blades at 5 (specializations do not add into this), you could have manuevers up to level 3.

You could have Martial Art Manuevers up to your modified Essence (after Cyberwear/ Bioware costs). Each manuever would take up an Essence amount equal to the power cost for Adepts. It would cost 2 BP per .25 Essence used and 4 BP to max out the level. So if I had 5 Essence, I could spend up to 40 BP on maneuvers (if no power was maxed out).

Your Attack Skill would also determine how much of your Essense you could use. So if you had 5 Essence and an Unarmed Strike of 2, you could only spend up to 16 BP in manuevers (if no power was maxed out).

And for the sake of completion. Learning a new maneuver would cost 4 Karma per .25 Essence and improving one would cost New Rating x 2 x (Essence Cost of each level/ .25). So Combat Sense would cost 8 Karma to learn and to improve it to level 2, it would cost 8 Karma.

One thing, this would be Mundanes Only, the Awakened or Technomancers wouldn't be able to do this.

Well, every group and gamemaster has their own "house rules". If they do come out, and you don't like em, don't use em. If they don't come out, I'll survive, and just specialize in grappling or some such, as specified earlier. BTW, in Awakenings, there was some sort of adept power that duplicated the legendary "death touch"; it was a killing hands strike that did'nt take effect for some period of time. Did the developers decide it was to unbalancing, or simply unecessary?

Delay Damage. Ah, the days...

I'm actually tinkering w/ some house rules for Martial Arts.

Basically instead of specializing in martial arts you specialize in a specific style. That style has a list of associated maneuvers and you get the bonus spec. dice when performing the maneuvers. That way if you study Judo you don't have to buy every throw, lock, or choke individually- you get them all and you get the bonus to all of them. Also, using unarmed combat as a Judo student you can still throw kicks or punches- however since judo doesn't teach those maneuvers you don't get the specialization bonuses to them.

Yes, if you use something like escrima you'd still have to buy the specialization for each of the the three skills but anyone can try any maneuver w/out being specialized-they just don't get the bonus dice.


The only problem I've run into is that some of the more complex forms have a lot of maneuvers. Pancration (I'm not sure of the spelling) is a great example- it basically teaches everything- some striking, a few solid kicks, and a lot lot lot of ground work. So some of the arts like that and brazilian jujitsu might have to get broken down by striking or ground maneuvers.

Well, technically a damaging throw, sweep, or whatnot that doesn't explicitly move the target and is intended to do damage would be a regular 'attack' under SR4 rules. So that makes total sense, and is really how it ought to be.

If nothing else, I'd like to see "kippup", allowing a character to stand as a free action. Or maybe an adept power equivalent.

See, this is why 3rd Edition's Martial Arts system was craptacular.

Want to simulate a specific art? You do so with the abstractions. Have one that focuses more on weapons than unarmed combat? You advance those weapon skills and specialize in particular weapons or weapon groups that you, yourself, are specialized in (as opposed to trying to be a master of all of them which very few people are). Simulating one that relies purely on unarmed combat but specializes in a particular maneuver? Unarmed Combat (Parry), Unarmed Combat (Grapple), Unarmed Combat (Disarm), etc.

Just like you do the same thing for everything else in the game. Are you a rigger specializing in drones? Pilot [Each Type] (Drones). A mercenary specializing in machine guns? Heavy Weapons (Machine Guns). etc.

I don't get the mentality that martial arts are somehow exempt from this basic philosophy of character design. And I really don't care what your asinine anime of choice, hack sensei, or random book written to glorify some mediocre fighting style says; there's nothing mystical or superior about martial arts compared to any other fighting style. A professional boxer [with his Unarmed Combat (Knockdown) skill] will give a professional martial artist (with his Unarmed Combat (Parry) skill] a run for his money in a real fight just as much as vice-versa will.

good idea. thanks.

To change the topic completely:

I don't think arsenal is the place for expanded martial arts rules. Just because they shoehorned it into the gun book last edition doesn't mean that's the right place for it this edition. Arsenal is a gear book. The last I check, martial arts weren't something you bought in a store and held in your hands.

I think the upcoming runner's companion is a much better place for them.

Conspiracy X game had an awesome martial arts system, but the game system was minimalist (very often no dices where involved to determine the outcome of an action, even in fights) and in fact it felt very realistic.
The problem with SR4 game system is that its very random, and this goes totaly against the notion of martial arts, where discipline primes.
SR4 isnt realy deadly, like in most games its VERY hard to kill someone bare handed (unless of course you're a physad with mortal strike).
It is also very forgiving : you can make a big mistake but still recover, in RL, a martial art fight will last a few seconds, once one of the opponent has seized an advantage, he'll win all most certainly.

The problem is maybe that like in all RPG, the game system does not take into account the tactical fight that takes place between two or more fighters.
Positioning and environment are maybe more important than the physical might of the fighters.
I dislike the "manga like" martial arts that are usually the source of inspiration for RPG martial arts systems.
Unless there is magic involved, its not going to be "Shaolin Kung Fu" ...
Look at old videos of public demonstrations of martial arts, like that old great master of Aikido. The guy is like 80 with a general cancer, and he fights of 8 brutes without a sweat.
This is not magic or mystical power, its just training, technique, and a huge prowess in concentration. The guy wins the fight because, he speculates on what his opponents will do, and does the perfect move at the perfect time. The guy is neither quick nor strong, he just have the good timing.
One thing important to note, the guy has 70 years of training.

So, to come back to SR4, either keep the actual flavourless system but that stays in touch with the rest of the game system, either go for a developped system, but in that case, for a true martial artist make it that they'll need like 4 or 5 skills + 2 or 3 knowledges to master their art and be truely effective.

Even the samouraï had to train with guns, and in the Hagakure (the book that imortalises the Bushi-Do, way of the warrior) it is mandatory for them to train with the blade, the bow, unarmed and the gun.
I hope to see a good martial arts rule in Armaments, but not one that will make guns obsolete

They need a MA technique called run away. That way when you show up to a fight with your fists and everyone else has guns you can turn tail and run away.

A very good idea, Battlejester. I'm a fan of that movie.