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Arix
Okay, this is probably a dumb question with a really obvious answer, but I looked in the book repeatedly, and I didn't see it, so I had to ask. Does anyone know what the level cap for critical strike is based on? I keep thinking it's magic, which makes sense to me, but I had someone tell me it was based on unarmed skill rating, which didn't sound right at all. So if any of you wise Shadowrun gurus out there with maybe a page number or a convincing argument, I would greatly appreciate it
Whipstitch
Your maximum adept power rating is equal to your Magic attribute. It's detailed in the Adept Powers section on page 187. Dunno where your friend got the idea that it was directly linked to the Unarmed Combat rating.
Zhan Shi
The maximum ratings for any adept power is based on magic. Some have additional maximums, such as an attribute or skill. Dos'nt apply to CS, though.
Zhan Shi
meant to say "based on an attribute or skill".
Arix
Thanks, I don't know where he got that idea either, I just thought I'd post it anyway. If you w anted to use this thread for general adept questions, I don't mind, since I'll probably have more later. I've played Shadowrun before, but this is my first time as an adept, you see.
BishopMcQ
Arix--Welcome to DSF. It appears that the question was answered above so I'll put my stick away and drag this horse to another thread. If you have questions, feel free to throw them into a post or if you have a few extra minutes, the search function of the site does a pretty good job. (Though I'll warn you we here at DSF rant regularly on a variety of subjects, so you may need to skim the results a bit.)

Good luck!
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
The maximum ratings for any adept power is based on magic.  Some have additional maximums, such as an attribute or skill.  Dos'nt apply to CS, though.

...should be based on 1/2 Strength or 1/2 Unarmed Combat (rounded up).

Strength of 1 + Critical strike 6 gives an unarmed DV equal to a sporting rifle...

...add a level or two of penetrating strike...

...seems broken to me.
Synner
Well, the developers wanted adepts to pack some punch ... sorry couldn't resist.
Kyrn
Why won't Distance Strike work over the internet to attack punsters?
Kyoto Kid
...Synner? *Ouch* grinbig.gif
Glyph
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
The maximum ratings for any adept power is based on magic.  Some have additional maximums, such as an attribute or skill.  Dos'nt apply to CS, though.

...should be based on 1/2 Strength or 1/2 Unarmed Combat (rounded up).

Strength of 1 + Critical strike 6 gives an unarmed DV equal to a sporting rifle...

...add a level or two of penetrating strike...

...seems broken to me.

Yeah, but it's being resisted with Reaction plus skill or dodge, rather than just Reaction, which makes a difference. Plus, someone with that build has hard-maxed Magic and spent a fourth of it on one power, but will be in trouble if anyone ever succeeds in using subdual combat against them.

It's not an optimal build, but it might be a fun one for someone who likes playing a skinny little guy who can knock trolls around.
Zhan Shi
Also, what with Augmentation being released, we adepts must contend with juiced up cyber/bio street sams.
eidolon
Had a player go the silent, no movement required distance strike killing hands D adept route in a 3e game once. I thought it was horribly broken...until the first time he took a shotgun blast to the chest point blank and unarmored.

Arix
my char's DV is 6, I don't know what penetrating strike is though

but his strength lies in things that aren't neccesarily combat related
Critias
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
The maximum ratings for any adept power is based on magic.  Some have additional maximums, such as an attribute or skill.  Dos'nt apply to CS, though.

...should be based on 1/2 Strength or 1/2 Unarmed Combat (rounded up).

Strength of 1 + Critical strike 6 gives an unarmed DV equal to a sporting rifle...

...add a level or two of penetrating strike...

...seems broken to me.

You're right. It's totally weird that an adept that devotes nearly half their magical prowess specifically towards hitting hard should...y'know...hit hard. That's broken! ohplease.gif

It's not that Critical Strike is potent, it's that the balls got cut right off pretty much every other unarmed combat attack in SR4, so it seems ridiculous by comparison.
Jaid
also, even if it is a lot of damage... it's 1/IP, compared to 2/IP for most guns. not to mention range.

so sure, you might do as much damage as a sporting rifle... but the guy with the sporting rifle can do that damage from a lot further away, can do it twice a round, can upgrade that damage cheaply (a few hundred nuyen is insignificant compared to magic 6) and didn't spend even remotely near what the adept spent to do the damage.

besides, critical strike is magic. it doesn't have to make sense =P
Gort
Hand-to-hand combat by default is totally rubbish. You attack half as fast, and the defender gets twice as many dice pools to defend with. Even WITH critical strike, I'd say someone who specialises in ranged combat is still head-and-shoulders above someone who specialises in hand-to-hand combat, given the variety of combat situations a shadowrunner will encounter.
Kyoto Kid
...effectively one level of Critical Strike is giving you +2 to strength per level for the purpose of all unarmed combat.

That's...

...20 BPs in attributes if purchased as the Attribute
...2 PP in Improved Attribute: Strength
...2 hits on a Boosted Attribute - Strength power test (which also has a drain factor as well)

...for .25 PP/per +1.

Now if anyone here would be first to defend the Physical/Combat Adept concept it is myself as it is my favourite archetype. However I feel this power, like Kinesics, is just a bit too much without some sort of control.

Improved Ability [skill] is capped by 1/2 skill rating. I don't see why powers such as Kinesics & Critical Strike shouldn't be capped by 1/2 Attribute to bring them more under control.

@Arix: Penetrating Strike is in [/i]Street Magic[/i], also .25 PP per -2AP up to a maximum of -3AP

It's not so much the cost of the power that actually bothers me as it is the idea of having that 45kg STR 1 weakling nebbish slapping trolls upside the head.

Irian
QUOTE (Gort)
I'd say someone who specialises in ranged combat is still head-and-shoulders above someone who specialises in hand-to-hand combat, given the variety of combat situations a shadowrunner will encounter.

But that's not totaly unrealistic, isn't it? It's easier to jump backwards from a knife than jumping away from a bullet... Killing someone with a gun is - imho - easier than killing him with a sword. For a sword you must get near, etc.

Killing an unexpecting target with a melee weapon is of course easier...
Draconis
Oh noes, the ranged vs melee permutation again. Here I'll save you all a bunch of time.

Do both, carry a gun and slice em up when you get close. Killing hands + critical strike + weapon focus + boost attribute power (Strength and agility). Try and boost both right before combat begins, then make those sammies cry.
odinson
Or be the cyber-adept. Best of both worlds. Then you can make that ultimate mundane climber look like a chump with your wall running and bonus dice to climb tests. That is, of course, after you've initiated to get back your magic after blowing it all on your cyber.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 29 2007, 10:28 AM)
It's not so much the cost of the power that actually bothers me as it is the idea of having that 45kg STR 1 weakling nebbish slapping trolls upside the head.

I think much of the drama about unarmed combat and critical strike is unwarranted. One important point people keep glossing over: Unarmed Combat is not just an offensive skill; it's a defensive one as well. It's always available, works against all types of melee (well, provided your limbs are still attached cyber.gif) and it's the ONLY defensive skill that can be used to break free of lock in subdual combat. Subdual combat is very much worth mentioning here; it means that Unarmed Combat comes with an option to deal Stun equal to strength built right in. Even a "wussy" strength 5 troll has a decent chance of utterly dominating someone with only 3s in body and strength via subdual combat (provided the troll isn't also outclassed in skill and agility, of course). It's part of why I think Critical Strike is a very vanilla power at the medium to low ratings, to tell you the truth. It's a purely short range offensive power in a world filled with firearms and it doesn't even outperform shockhands and monowhips unless you have a decent strength score to back it up.
Kyoto Kid
...oh I agree, but I've rarely if ever seen anybody actually use subdual combat in the games I've been in.

The other thing is that same nebbish can have a 5 or 6 in unarmed combat even more if specialised in a fighting style and take up to his Skill/2 in levels of Improved Combat Ability. Since Agility comes into play instead of Strength for Unarmed DP, it is quite conceivable our milktoast pugilist can come up with a pool of 16 dice. That is 5 hits on average increasing the DV to 12.

...with a strength of 1.

...be careful who you kick sand in the face of at the beach...
Whipstitch
It's rather debateable whether you can take Improved Ability above rating 3 even with specializations. The book is really quite vague about it; on the one hand, it says specializations add dice to the test. But then right in the next paragraph it refer's to the specializations rating. I don't have a problem with what you're talking about regardless, however. It means that a frail but crazy skilled martial arts master with can kick some major ass provided he avoids making it into a contest of pure strength. The idea's stupid IRL, but add in magic and I'm willing to buy it.

Anyway though, people who don't at least consider using subdual combat are plain crazy. Maybe you should try convincing the GM that any fancy pants strength 1 uber samurais in the group should get some thorough wedgies from a playful strength 9 Troll Judo instructor.
Kyoto Kid
...I never buy anything if the only defence for it is "it's magic".
Whipstitch
That's really too bad, considering we're talking about a game where it exists. I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that someone can get good at martial arts combat without being physically strong... provided they have magical powers gifted only to a small percentage of the population and then channel all their time, energy and much of their power into being awesome at a form of magically augmented asskicking to the exclusion of other abilities. And even then they could still feasibly lose to a Troll who's merely pretty good but happens to catch them in a simple headlock.
Kyoto Kid
...well I tend to be one of those empirical types who likes having a basis for why things work the way they do other than "it's magic".

I love the technology and politics in the game. I find the magic side of it more an annoyance if anything else, particularly when it seems to trump the tech.
Jaid
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...effectively one level of Critical Strike is giving you +2 to strength per level for the purpose of all unarmed combat.

That's...

...20 BPs in attributes if purchased as the Attribute
...2 PP in Improved Attribute: Strength
...2 hits on a Boosted Attribute - Strength power test (which also has a drain factor as well)

...for .25 PP/per +1. [snip]

not really.

it doesn't let you carry more stuff.

it doesn't let you draw a more powerful bow, or throw farther or harder. or let you hit harder with anything other than unarmed (no good with a weapon focus, for example)

it doesn't add to any skill tests.

it doesn't add to any attribute tests.

it is therefore not worth any of those things, because those other things give *more* than just a damage boost to one type.

also the improved attribute adept skills are hideously overpriced.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 29 2007, 10:28 AM)
...effectively one level of Critical Strike is giving you +2 to strength per level for the purpose of all unarmed combat

That's...

...20 BPs in attributes if purchased as the Attribute
...2 PP in Improved Attribute: Strength
...2 hits on a Boosted Attribute - Strength power test (which also has a drain factor as well)

...for .25 PP/per +1. [snip]

not really.

it doesn't let you carry more stuff.

it doesn't let you draw a more powerful bow, or throw farther or harder. or let you hit harder with anything other than unarmed (no good with a weapon focus, for example)

it doesn't add to any skill tests.

it doesn't add to any attribute tests.

it is therefore not worth any of those things, because those other things give *more* than just a damage boost to one type.

also the improved attribute adept skills are hideously overpriced.

...please see emphasised text.
Whipstitch
I'm big on empirical evidence as well. I'm pretty much a card carrying secular humanist, when it comes right down to it. Even so, I tend to think applying lots of reason to Shadowrun's magic system is somewhat subversive. To me the most important thing is that the magic system and the other core rules be internally consistent.
Kyoto Kid
...for me the issue is when the two, Magic & mundane, cross each other. Magic almost always appears to win out which to me is an inconsistency. But again, that is a personal opinion of mine.

...but back to the topic of Adepts & Critical Strike.
Arix
Wow, I didn't expect that little question to spawn two pages of comments. Just for clarification, the character in question is not entirely focused on unarmed combat (thrown weapons are also a specialty), I just thought t hat he should be able to do decent damage with an unarmed attack if he got close enough to do so. And in fact, his unarmed spec IS subdual.
Kyoto Kid
...the way of things here on DSF. One simple little question can often spur pages upon pages of debate & tangents.
Arix
Well good, just means more information for me without having to ask for it. biggrin.gif
Also, where would I find brass knuckles in the SR4 book? I looked in the equipment section, but they weren't there.
Whipstitch
That character sounds cool, as long as you're not taking Critical Strike and expecting it to boost the PC's subdual combat. I've gone the wrestler with Missile Mastery and Power Throw route myself before. It was perfect for the PC trio I was in; my wrestler was a dwarf with the bland and human looking qualities and he only had a Face/Hacker and a Mage skilled in Summoning as teammates. We could go in with virtually no weapons or incriminating equipment and still do OK if we absolutely had to fight. I'm not sure how well it works in a less discreet group, however. Being able to make quiet kills with minimal resources isn't that big of a bonus if you're being escorted by a knuckleheaded 9 foot tall troll with dermal plating and a Panther Cannon, after all.

As far as brass knuckles are concerned, they're not currently in the book, I'm afraid. I think it'd be a simple enough matter to simply allow the PC to threaten physical damage when using them, but add no other bonuses. It still wouldn't be in the same league as killing hands anyway; spirits don't care what you have on your knuckles as long as it's not a focus.
Arix
he rolls a decent amount of dice for subdual combat that I'm not overly concerned, his skills lean more towards tracking people down, and sneaking past security, particularly voice recognition systems
azrael_ven
It is funny how people get worked up over one-trick ponies. Even if you have an adapt with critical strike, he still needs to get close enough to use it. There are many different dimensions to combat and close combat is just one. If you have a character that specializes in one area, they will suffer in another. If they don't then the GM is not properly doing his job. That is why you have a team when you go do runs, because each person makes up a piece of the puzzle. This is not any different than the gun bunny discussion everybody likes to bring up. Just because you may not like someone's character concept does not mean it is cheap or broken. I have a troll adept that uses a bow that would give either build a run for there money because of the shear damage he can do. In a social situation he isn't so good. When it comes to technology he is clueless, he barely even knows how to use a comm link. When it comes to putting a hurt on spirits or nailing someone to a wall with an arrow he is your guy.
Arix
Yeah, this dude is not meant to use mostly unarmed combat, his focus is actually thrown weapons
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Arix)
Well good, just means more information for me without having to ask for it.  biggrin.gif
Also, where would I find brass knuckles in the SR4 book? I looked in the equipment section, but they weren't there.

...unfortunately, Shadowrun has never included Brass Knuckles as a weapon in the gear section (much to my disappointment, like how can you do a proper shakedown without Brass Knucks?)

In Cannon Companion they did have an item called Hardliner Gloves which I believe added +1 to the power number for punches. I would houserule them as adding +1 DV to the punch attacks for SR4.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (azrael_ven @ Aug 29 2007, 07:13 PM)
It is funny how people get worked up over one-trick ponies.

To keep the cliche ball rolling, I'd say that when I see one trick ponies, I worry much less about them being overpowered and more about the possibility that the player may be putting all his eggs in one basket. It's definitely a potential pitfall with Awakened characters since they have so many ways to funnel bps and karma into their chosen field. My own two trick pony (the wrestling missile master) would not have worked out so well in a different trio. I had a good rapport with my fellow players (my former roommate and my younger brother); and my PC filled a good niche; my roommate's face/hacker wasn't much of a fighter and my brother's Summoning specialist wasn't good at discreet violence.
Glyph
It's also funny how people will assume someone with, say, 18 dice in pistols is a "one-trick pony", when there are pleny of build points left for that character to have other skills and specialties. This is especially true for combat skills, where high Agility usually counts for much of the dice pool, and that same high Agility can be used with lots of other skills..
Whipstitch
I can definitely agree with that. I find it's only an occasional issue that crops up when new players shoot for the attribute hardcaps right from the start.
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