Magic worked just fine in space in SR3 ... if you were a high enough Grade ... or you had Filtering.

And this differs from SR3 how? Especially after the release of SotA64.

Otaku were basically magical in SR3. In fact, it was a bone of contention for quite a few people. Again, what's the difference?

There is a precedent, I believe in Augmentation, whereby Knowledge Skills can be used to augment (no pun intended) a person's actions. I think it's in the Medicine section.

See SotA64!

You're kidding, right? Cyberlimbs rock now better than in any previous edition of Shadowrun.

Bioware cost Essence in SR3. I'm confused.

Strange. I find that it's the rare mage that doesn't take any cyberware. At least in my experience. Certainly every single one of mine has done so, even the couple that have had the Sensitive System Quality.

As for Incompetence, well there have been dozens of threads on the subject, and quite a fair amount of GMs seem to think that there is little problem, as long as discretion is used ... which is the case with all parts of chargen anyway.

no, actually, SR3 used bio index iirc. i don't really remember how exactly it work, but i do remember thinking bioware was a nuisance =P

I have to disagree here, to a point.

Sure, cyberlimbs are “better� than before but far too expensive as their fluff suggest. Cyberlimbs are stuff for the poor according to fluff but cost at least 4+ montly middle lifestyles.

We added a few houserules to correct that problem.
Cut prices in half for all limbs from Obvious limb prices
No cost difference between synthetic and obvious (they have their respective advantages)
Lower essence cost for skull and torso to Torso: 1 skull: 0,5
Availability: 3
Starting attributes are 3+Racial

With the above as a base a second hand cyberlimb with minimum attributes for a poor troll with some savings it costs him 5K for a limb.

This about sums up why my GM refuses to run fourth. I've volunteered to be the GM for out fourth campaign if we ever do one, but there will be a decent load of house rules. Though the logic thing pisses me off more then anything. It literally ranks up with one of the most blatant overlooks i've seen in any game....ever.

Heh, that was rough at first, but I got past it by actively ignoring myself while reading SR4 stuff.

"What's that, brain? It worked how in SR3? SHUT UP JERK I'M READING!"

Actually, the hardest thing for me so far is finding the damn time to read the books.

Seriously, I've done a good skim of the core book, and have read the first bit of Emergence. I did manage to finish System Failure, which I hadn't read previously because I hadn't been sure I was going to move to SR4.

Yeah. Time. Bah.

Helps if you put Yoda on loop. "Unlearn... unlearn you must!"

Unless they used Filtering or were a high enough Grade, exactly like in SR4.

There have been no negative modifiers to mages using the Matrix since SR1 (or maybe 2). As far as a sacrifice of Magic, so what? Maybe people are too caught up in 'class mentality', but one of the good points of Shadowrun is that there are an infinite number of ways to build a character, and none of them are necessarily wrong (concept-wise).

But a lot of the other stuff wasn't as limited, and everything still combined just nicely. The fact that there were a ton of things that dropped the TN in SR3 for Social Adepts made a huge difference.

At a measly monetary cost. No capacity is used whatsoever in reaching your own attribute level.

Maybe this is not indicative of a problem with the Quality, and more a problem with the games you are playing. I have found that most people I game with are mature enough to either not abuse the system in the first place, or are at least open enough to discussion to deal with the situation.

In my experience, in a lot of areas the difference between someone who is good at something and someone who isn't, is not one of capability but of consistency. When the dice pools are small, the difference in hits is actually proportionately more significant.

Don't forget that attributes are also a factor in the skill roll, giving a much larger range than skill alone.

-K.

EDIT: And while I'm here - hardest thing about SR4 is dealing with all the broken hearted SR3 fans.

*raises hand*

Oh, wait, you said in their right mind didn't you. Never mind.

\signed.

I got lucky and had 2 complete noobs in my SR4 group. My other 2 players have similar play style to me and had such long running characters in SR3 that they didn't really get much experience with the ENTIRE system.

The difference between someone with skill 7 and 4 is that if the shot suffers -3 dice pool modifier the skill 7 person still has the same skill as the 4. Gun duel at 10 paces, no wind, clear visibility the skill 7 can shoot you in the face and roll the same number of dice.

Kinesics works fine for me. It is much harder for Adepts to get Power Points now. Before the Adept got 3 levels of initiation = +3 magic, +3 metamagic and then started paying 20 karma to get +1 power point once initiation was too expensive. That problem is gone now. Adepts got MASSIVELY hosed in 4th in my opinion.

As far as Logic and Hacking goes I'm fine with it not playing a role as long as the fluff remains the same. Older books had mentions that literacy was actually on the decline because no one NEEDED to read anymore. It's all visual. Even the programming suites were described as the programmer mostly just taking iconic representations of blocks of code and inserting them into the program. You didn't even need to read or write to program! Mind you you still needed the Knowledge skills to write the program plans but I'm sure that'll make an appearence in the
Advanced Programming rules in Unwired.

Overall my group has found that the 3 worlds of SR work smootly and realistically together and that character creation and building is EVEN more open and interesting than ever.

...did a bit of research and you are correct the +4 modifier was dropped in SRIII. However to even be a reasonable Decker would take away from the character's focus on their magical abilities (mages were still Karma whores back then). In 4th ed if you go by RAW, it is programme rating, not attribute that adds to the hacking pool. So let's say, a shaman with a low to middling logic could still be a better hacker than she could as a decker.

For one, the investment isn't as extreme (cyberdecks and utilities were horribly expensive compared to commlinks and programmes). All Mages had foci to buy and bond and Hermetics needed summoning materials. In SR4 you only need to pay for conjuring materials if you wish to bind a spirit. Second she doesn't need to sacrifice that point of MA to get a datajack as everything is wireless. If need be she can use a trode net and get the same performance as if she was hard wired. In SRIII using trodes meant you were a "turtle" with very limited capability (this is the path mages in my campaigns took who wanted to dabble in the matrix as nobody wanted to sacrifice even that 1 point of magic).

...keep in mind some of those same edges such as Friendly Face and Good Reputation were also available to the NPCs as well, and what decent Johnson wouldn't have them if he or she wanted to keep their job. Heck any corp with decent resources would recruit and groom social adepts of their own. As a GM I was also very careful on the allowance of the Aptitude edge (which was suggested in the rules for it could easily upset game balance).

I never had issues with Johnson's being walked all over as they were in SR4 because for one thing, there were no elementals which could sustain Health spells on a character in SRIII. That made a huge difference in 4th ed. Now you have that elf face adept with a 12 Charisma 5 negotiation, 5 Kinesics, +2 improved ability, First Impression Quality against the mundane J who has a 5 charisma 5 negotiations and maybe the First Impression quality.

..you are of course referring to the Custom Cyberlimb option in Augmented. Again I am at a bit of a loss to reply on this as I just obtained the PDF and have not read through everything yet.

...yes I will agree, this was a player issue. Granted, none of my Adepts have taken it (though I do have one mundane with the quality who has some cyber). It is just that every time I see someone with a new awakened character, that is the first NQ on the list. Now I can't tell them they can't take it, but there has to be some kind of disadvantage for the character otherwise it isn't a Negative Quality. Maybe next time I need to do something extreme like have Ares or Aztechnology abduct a mage or adept with this NQ and stick a datajack in them.

Addendum: Since Augmented came out I understand there is some sort of Nanoware that can be bought which effectively negates the flaw. If this is so and a character takes it - there goes the next 30 karma to buy that NQ off.

This strikes me as a bit silly.

Look at from the corp perspective - I don't send you out with a bottomless expense budget. I (the black ops line manager) assign an expense budget, you (The johnson) work with it. If pretty boy elf won't work with the expense budget, he doesn't get the job.

And whats more, if the johnson does not keep some of the budget, he gets a bad performance review. In the rest of the company thats not a problem, you get put in a remedial program and maybe miss a promotion. However, this is black ops, and they have a strict performance plan for dealing with people who don't uphold the companies end of the deal - and if you don't improve while on the performance review you are going to get killed. Or assigned to investigate mana storms in australia. either way, same outcome.

Therefore Johnsons arn't going to walk into the trap over and over. For starters there is a fixed upper limit on budgets that the johnson cannot exceed without authorizations form his manager - which he is never going to ask for unless he really has to, to avoid losing face with the boss. Even asking for it once in a year means you are going to get put on the performance review plan if the controller gets involved. Asking twice in one year? That means the black ops controller will get personally involved, which will then end your career. Thus he isn't going to do it. Non negioatible. Secondly, the team is going to get a rep as 'expensive' and 'low value' and won't get the jobs.

Whats more, the thumbscrews are going to get put on both the fixer that recommends them and the johnsons that are hiring them to keep down the expenses budget. Why are we dealing with these clowns who charge through the nose but don;t do top shelf stuff.

So really no-one is going to want to deal with the team because they cannot get something done that suits everyone. Now this is a co-operative storytelling game so your not just going to screw the team, but you can start putting longer downtime between jobs, and start escalating the danger levels for the same fixed budget range - as people are only coming around when they cannot get anyone else to do it. Drop some subtle hints via the fixers 'Man, everyone seems to think you guys are really expensive low value adding talent, Mr J keeps saying you guys cost to much!' and go from there.

I dont agree. They just made the rules more streamlined. Elementals are not uber powerful and doesnt take horrible effort to get one. The difficulty is now equal and so it the power level.

we had this in SR2/SR3 but it was just a little uglier.

Not everything is. BY default it is but people can still hardwire stuff.

there will always be min/maxing. even on the dreaded D20 DnD has min/maxing. min/maxing is what players do with their characters. Some players try to minimize their min/maxing but it is hard to make a kick butt character when you dont.

I bet most of them will be back with the new rules. some wont. if you have to have the stuff from SR3, play SR3.

no! no! no! it is an ACTIVE skill. It is something you have to do.

yeah everyone only has 1 IP unless they get cyberware/bioware/magic to give them additional. So faster init is not the only factor. The number of passed is another factor. It makes it more well balanced.


Now we can sit down and "debate" the good points and bad points of any game system or any edition of a game system, and we can find things that we dont like. Some of the points you made you made them to be out as a bad thing where I see them as a good things. Just differences of opinions.

I have played all the editions. Have most of 1st, all of 2nd and 3rd, and I *personally* think that 4th is the better version. I had to play it a little while before I came to that conclusions.

dog

Or you could make a game with no bad choices at character creation!

That pretty much eliminates min maxing

No, it is a Physical Skill (as in the category). You can even get a Reflex Recorder for it.

...your points are well put and echo responses to the same concern I had expressed in past threads relating to this very topic.

I have since adopted a lot of these suggestions.

At the time this was getting out of hand it revolved around a single player who had abused the magic and adept system to the Nth degree. The character in question was a control/social mystic adept who used a Spirit of Man to boost her already obscene Charisma. It was either escalate the conflict (which didn't work) or throw up the hands and give her the top price just to keep things moving along for the other players. The thing is this same player also was in my old SRIII campaign with a similar type of character and never was able to pull off the level of stuff she did in 4th ed.

One of the downsides of your last suggestion is that the team doesn't accept the offer and walks. Basically the game session is over and everyone just wasted their time getting all their stuff ready and travelling to the location where the game was held. This was a distinct possibility I faced and personally I was not into doing all the prep work and drag myself halfway across town only to pack everything up after 15 minutes and go home. So it usually came down to cave into (and feed the ego of) the one player so the other players had a mission to go on, or have the Johnson stick to his offer & pack everything in when the team's spokesperson declines the offer.

Yes this was a player issue, but one that I feel was precipitated by the way the mechanics were set up.

Suffice to say, this particular situation has since been resolved.

See, I don't get this. I've had my groups turn down jobs all the time, and it doesn't ever spell the end of the gaming session. All it means is that I have to do some stuff on the fly, or better yet, have the players (and their characters) set the direction of the game. Even if worst comes to worst and I can't think of anything, some kind of social situation and/or shopping trip would work. Anything but end the session prematurely.

We've turned down only a very few across a series of campaigns. The only one I can think was one where it just didn't smell right, in the Tir. I can't remember if we didn't take it at the meet or if we returned the money and walked away. We were later told it was to be a hosejob, so we were glad.

And there is the after the failed meet scene when everyone is sitting around talking when "Come out with your hands up, we have you surrounded" comes over the PA system. . .

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. When I gmed, my players also declined some offers - some where only there to BE declined, but even if they declined a "good" job (meaning: One I had prepared) I would have never thought of going home at this point. Normaly I then used one of my backup jobs or improvised...

Look at it from a game mechanic point of view. The roll ensures that the Johnson sucks it up and takes the fall. All the negative aspects of the result of the roll should already be factored into the roll itself. If the negotiator wins despite the negative modifiers these negative repercussions would produce, then the Johnson sucks it up. It is not the pretty elf boy won't work within the budget, it is the pretty elf boy convinced you that the budget is too small and it is unworkable. Since you have been convinced, you get the short end of the stick to work it so that the pretty elf boy gets his nuyen and you get your job done.

If "you" don't want to walk over the trap again and again, then I suggest "you" take a dive off the tallest building because "you" obviously cannot take the stress. Secondly, because it was "you" who lost the roll, the streets(fixers, other Johnsons, etc) is going to take the point of view that it is either your corp is cheapskate or "you" are, any ill effects would be such that "you" are left holding the bag, not the runners. So win that roll.

I don't suppose you allow people to get dead with 1 or 2 simple rolls either?

Not if the only part of the body that could have been hit is a finger.

Some spells or adepts power can lead to negociation magic with very powerful results ("yes sir, I will now kill myself").
Some very good persuasion techniques can lead to interesting results but might require more time and need to have some consistency.

An example comes to my mind: the runner is caught naked and heavily wounded, his arm tied behind his back by a security guard who happens to be the brother of another guard he just killed. He wants the guard to free him and give him his weapon. With manipulation spells and some adept powers (such as commanding voice), it's possible to get him to do it.
Without that, it seems impossible... But it is.

A really convincing runner (with pheromones, kinesics, high charisma, etc.) can for example tell the guard that the rest of his team is arriving and that the guard can get away with his wounded brother, saving both their lives. It won't be easy to convince the guard, but the negative modifiers and the threshold should reflect that. If the runner succeeds, the guard will be convinced... or at least he'll check if the runner said the truth.

But in that situation, I don't see how the runner could be able to convince the guard (we'll suppose the guard is sane) to kill himself without any mind control. That's what I'd compare to killing someone by shooting one finger. A strict application of the rule will consider it possible, but that's another reason why we have GM instead of computers (or zombies).

Why the hell can't you hit Zurich Orbital with a Hold Out with 10000 hits? The limits are clearly stated in the book. The limits, if there are, are already clearly stated. No, that isn't reality. That's reality in real life. But reality in SR is defined by its rules. And there's no limit.

You keep thinking real life when you should be thinking Shadowrun when talking about Shadowrun rules.

Ok those lines scare me. Uh the rules can't and don't define every last thing. Otherwise you'd have rule books that are multi volume encylopedias. A little common sense goes a long way.
Why not start flying around and walking through walls? The book doesn't say you can't.

You know I was seriously waiting for that. Gee I never considered that sparky, I play a mage every damn week.
I'm not in the mood so i'll let it slide, you know what I meant.

Because there are rules for magic to walk through walls and fly around, then you could assume that the joe mundane cannot do such without. An induction if you will, no common sense required.