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Aristotle
I'm putting together a list of bioware, and trying to squeeze as much juice as I can get from 3 points of essence. The character in question is an adept, so I'm trying to half essence. I've played with a Bio/Cyber mix, but wasn't really getting what I felt I was going for.

The character in question has a Type O System (30pt quality). I've seen some confusion as to how this quality works. My understanding, and the basis for my math, is that it only affects "Basic" bioware. Cultured Bioware is purchased at full essence. The character will also likely be a gun adept.

First, here is the full 3 point build I came up with...
Synaptic Booster 3 (1.5)
Trauma Damper (.2)
Reflex Recorder: Skill (.1)
Muscle Toner 4 (.4)
Extended Volume 2 (.1)
Platelet Factories (.1)
Synthacardium 3 (.15)
[Second Hand] Orthoskin 3 (.45)

That comes in at 3 essence, but several items aren't available at character generation, and the price tag is way too high. So here is my paired down list, for the character to begin play with, while the character gets together the cash to pay for the rest.

Synaptic Booster 2 (1)
Reflex Recorder: Skill (.1)
Muscle Toner 2 (.2)
Platelet Factories (.1)
[Second Hand] Orthoskin 2 (.3)

1.7 essence, and 241,000 nuyen. Anyone care to offer any advice/tweaks?
Kronk2
QUOTE (Aristotle)
[Second Hand] Orthoskin 3 (.45)

Dude thats sick, wearing someone elses skin? you don't know where thats been man
Tarantula
Type O means no second hand biowear ever.
Cain
QUOTE

The character in question has a Type O System (30pt quality). I've seen some confusion as to how this quality works. My understanding, and the basis for my math, is that it only affects "Basic" bioware. Cultured Bioware is purchased at full essence.

Incorrect. Cultured Bio can be bought in alpha, beta, and delta just like anything else. Cultures more reflects the availiability and time required than anything else. So, your cultured bio counts for half essence.
Tycho
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 22 2007, 02:46 PM)
QUOTE

The character in question has a Type O System (30pt quality). I've seen some confusion as to how this quality works. My understanding, and the basis for my math, is that it only affects "Basic" bioware. Cultured Bioware is purchased at full essence.

Incorrect. Cultured Bio can be bought in alpha, beta, and delta just like anything else. Cultures more reflects the availiability and time required than anything else. So, your cultured bio counts for half essence.

nope he is correct:

cultured bioware implants have to be adept to every individuum, so Type O System doesn't alter the essence Loss there, but only for basic bioware.

Thats because the basic Bioware is design for a Type O System, so that they fit in everybody and the lucky bastard with this quality gets Deltaware for free.


QUOTE

Type O System
Cost: 30 BP
Though exceptionally rare, a few lucky people in the world
have completely non-allergenic “type O? cells, meaning that they
can give organ transplants to just about anyone with little chance of
rejection. While the character cannot accept second-hand bioware
at all, their essential cell line is already cultivated as the generic
standard throughout the world. Off the rack, basic bioware is considered
delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body
(i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the
same). Their bodies are also filled with universally transplantable
organs, so maybe they shouldn’t brag too much about this talent.


cya
Tycho
WearzManySkins
Also Type O essence reduction does not apply to Cultured Bioware ie Synaptic Accerators, and reflex recorders, which in your example it does not, but I see only two piece of bioware gaining any benefit form Type O and that is Muscle Toner and Platelet Factories, that only saves you what .2 essence?

I would recommend getting rid of Type O quality and taking Biocompatability-Bioware, Synner has already stated that Biocompatability and Type O are two totally different genetic conditions with different "mechanics" to achieve similar results.

So if you use Biocompatability-Bioware what you have listed costs 1.8 in essence and only costs you 10 bps. So then you can use the left over 20 bps to buy another quality or what ever you like.

WMS
WearzManySkins
@Cain
Look in the Augmentation Q&A thread, search for the Type O Quality, Synner has answered that, any Cultured Bioware does not gain any benefit of Type O Quality.

WMS
Tarantula
Basic bioware isn't a specific enough clarification, as all 'ware has 4 grades (basic, alpha, beta, and delta) as well as bioware being either basic or cultured.

Basic bioware can either refer to basic grade bioware, or basic type bioware. The text isn't specific, and needs to be errataed, so a GM can rule either way. Check with your GM first.

Besides, if as you say, it refers to the type of bioware, and not the grade, you could get delta grade basic bioware, which then is reduced again from the quality, for a 75% reduction. This is why I believe it refers to the grade and not to the type.
Big D
Again, see the other thread. It's been stated that "basic" means non-cultured, and that normal "basic" gets delta benefits... and that alpha, beta, or delta "basic" get no further benefits.

IMHO, biocompatibility would be better, and a little cyber (eyes, maybe some headware gadgets or EPE) might help, too.

EDIT: WOO! Init boosters FTW! smile.gif
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
Synner and Frank Trollman discussed & explained the impact of Type O Quality in the Augmentation Q&A, with that quality, any non cultured bioware is basically delta grade, so buying a delta grade non cultured bioware gains you no essence savings.

Damn was not fast enough Big D got there first.

WMS
Aristotle
Thanks for the replies, and discussion, thus far...

Regarding Second Hand Ware. I guess I was just thinking of it as basic ware that was previously used, and since it was basic to start it would still count. That makes logical sense to me. But I can easily choose to not go that route. It would mean cutting Orthoskin to rating 1 in character generation.

Regarding Biocompatability. Type O is saving me .42 essence at character generation. Not huge. But with the planned upgrades, it would be giving me 4.05 in ware for 2.93. Maybe not huge, but I'm leaning towards keeping the quality.
Tycho
there is no basic grade!

the grades are: standard, alpha, beta and delta

so basic bioware means only the non cultured bioware, which is in every book is named basic bioware.

seem very clear to me...

cya
Tycho
Cain
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 22 2007, 01:03 PM)
@Cain
Look in the Augmentation Q&A thread, search for the Type O Quality, Synner has answered that, any Cultured Bioware does not gain any benefit of Type O Quality.

WMS

To quote Toturi, until I see an official errata on that one, I'm going to doubt it. It won't have been the first time Synner said something that failed to appear in the errata.

We had this one out a long time ago, when SR4 first came out. There was an argument that since the book refers to basic ware, you wouldn't have cultured ware in Alpha, Beta, or Delta, Those two rules seem to contradict one another.
Tycho
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 23 2007, 01:49 PM)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 22 2007, 01:03 PM)
@Cain
Look in the Augmentation Q&A thread, search for the Type O Quality, Synner has answered that, any Cultured Bioware does not gain any benefit of Type O Quality.

WMS

To quote Toturi, until I see an official errata on that one, I'm going to doubt it. It won't have been the first time Synner said something that failed to appear in the errata.

We had this one out a long time ago, when SR4 first came out. There was an argument that since the book refers to basic ware, you wouldn't have cultured ware in Alpha, Beta, or Delta, Those two rules seem to contradict one another.

As I have explained, there is no need for an Errata!

CW/BW grades are (p. 165 Aug or p. 303 Core Rules):
Standard, Alpha, Beta, Delta

and if you look on page 171 Aug or page 338 Core Rules: There are lists of Basic Bioware


The Text of Type O Body is correct and there is no need of an errata!
Tarantula
If we're referring to SR4, 303, then we have some other contentions to make. SR4, 303, "The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard ’ware (with the exception of cultured bioware, see p. 339)."

Which says that cultured isn't standard grade. But, cultured does have a standard grade.

Another contention I have, is that if the quality means the character matches the blanks they use for pre-grown bioware, then wouldn't that make it easier to delta match cultured ware too?

Regardless, I'm going treat the wording as not clear enough until I see an errata.
Tycho
Type O System says:

"...Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body..."

Question: what is meaned by basic bioware

Option 1:
Basic Bioware means all bioware of basic grade, although there is no basic grade and the description in every book is Standart Grade

Option 2:
Basic Bioware is the generic term for non cultured bioware, which is used so in every book.

So what seem the right one for you?

cya
Tycho
Aristotle
I was afraid this thread would become a discussion about this. We've gone a few rounds on this topic in other threads. I'm happy to discuss it here too, though. I originally felt the quality applied to cultured ware too. Then I did a careful reread of the relevant rules, and came to the same conclusions Tycho has.

I'll admit that it feels a little vague. The same way that pool modifiers versus attribute/skill modifiers feel vague to me. I'd love to see a little more clarity in general in any errata, and/or future products.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Sep 22 2007, 01:03 PM)
@Cain
Look in the Augmentation Q&A thread, search for the Type O Quality, Synner has answered that, any Cultured Bioware does not gain any benefit of Type O Quality.

WMS

To quote Toturi, until I see an official errata on that one, I'm going to doubt it. It won't have been the first time Synner said something that failed to appear in the errata.

We had this one out a long time ago, when SR4 first came out. There was an argument that since the book refers to basic ware, you wouldn't have cultured ware in Alpha, Beta, or Delta, Those two rules seem to contradict one another.

Mistakes happen, just because you want to abuse it to your advantage doesn't make it different. Toturi just gets his jollies by taking everything at exactly face value in RPG books. This particular instance has been errata by the writer of it. If that isn't good enough then you really need to get a life and stop bringing it up, there's already one thread on it.
WearzManySkins
From the Augmentation Q&A Thread
Quote Synner this is from page 15 of that thread.

QUOTE
(PlatonicPimp @ Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM)
So now we have different meanings of deltaware for basic and cultured bioware. Basic Bioware becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry and genome. Integration has nothing to do with it (or else the type O wouldn't work at all, since it's all about biochem matching). But cultured bioware determines grade based on integration, not biochem.


Think of it this way:

All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used).

Cultured bioware also demands neurological integration, in fact, it requires it or it won't work. By that I don't just mean tying the new bioware into the neural network, but also reinforcing and enhancing synaptic links, biochemical transmitters, overriding biological limitations to neural stimuli, stimulating new neural pathways essencial to that bioware, reducing conflicts in central nervous system stimuli relay, etc - this is required to handle the augmented feedback, expanded neural activity, and biostress introduced to the neurological system by cultured bioware. This "neurological integration" needs to be custom tailored to a specific user because no two nervous systems are identical and this is what renders it useless. This neurological integration can be performed to varying degrees (hence grades) but is essential to cultured bioware.

Type O helps with the biological integration and not with the neurological integration which is what makes Cultured Bioware unique. So it's not that Type O doesn't affect Cultured Bioware, but that while it might aid the metabolic integration, that's only a part (the lesser one) of the equation and it doesn't affect the neurological integration which is essential to make Cultured Bioware work. Rather than saying it works partially, its simpler to say that that since neurological integration is essential.

A secondary effect of Culture Bioware's requirement is that it is never available Second hand.

QUOTE

Do I have it? does deltaware mean an entirely different thing for cultured bioware than it does for basic bioware?


See above.
Tarantula
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used).

If all bioware becomes a higher grade the better it matches biochem, genome, and immune system, then why doesn't type O help with cultured ware?
WearzManySkins
@Tarantula
IIRC that is covered the the Augmentation Q & A thread, start about page 13 of that thread.

WMS
Tycho
thats really simple:

all basic Bioware is produced in a way, that its compatible to all metahumans, and it's called Typo O, after this guy, which was first discovered with a Type O System.

cultured bioware have to be produced individually for any metahuman, otherwise it's useless.

if you have type O System, you are really lucky, because all implants of mass production (basic bioware) is produced to fit best to an Type O System. So an standard implant from an random bodyshop is deltaware for you.

cultured bioware is produced on an individual level, so even with Type O System you need one produced especially for you, so no benefit for cultured Bioware.

cya
Tycho
Cain
That makes absolutely no sense from a biological standpoint.

First of all, there's no such thing as "neurological integration". Modern transpalnt surgery doesn't worry at all about the nerves matching up. Instead, what they're worried about is "protein matching"-- matching the protein markers on every cell that identify a part of the body as itself.

In modern terms, a transplant patient has to take immunosupressants his whole life, otherwise the mismatched proteins will singal an intruder, and get attacked by the body's own immune system. Given that in 2070, they've beaten this, presumably through the Type O individual mentioned above.

Now, here's the thing. Both Type O and Cultured ware have a similar set of protein markers. We know that cultured ware isn't a perfect match, because it still triggers essence loss (while a cloned limb wouldn't). So, there's a set of foreign proteins floating around in both cultured and Type O bioware.

So, if Mr. Type O gets his benefits from the fact that he's got easily matched proteins, then both cultured and non-cultured bioware should get the bonus. Heck, the difference between cultured and non-cultured ware is stupid at the core, making assumptions about biology that should be obvious.

I spent part of my patient care time with a man who was listed as a kidney transplant patient, and I learned a lot about transplants in a hurry. When I say this makes no biological sense, it makes no sense.
WearzManySkins
@Cain
As someone put in another thread, taking RL and projecting it forward to 2070, is doomed to failure.

This game was developed/designed by those who in most part did not have a "clue" as for RL technologies etc. Does that make them bad? No just a game developer/designer, If I wanted something anywhere near RL, I would not enjoy it.

I play Shadowrun for enjoyment/escape from the RL crap of today, I can but "hope" that in the year 2070 the world will change, but I know from history, it will not. biggrin.gif

WMS
Cain
It's one thing when they say: "It's a game, sorry."

It's another when a dev makes up pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo as justification for an in-game effect. They should admit they're ignorant, and not extrapolating off of known technologies. Justifying nonsense with nonsense doesn't work.

Karl Wu, the writer of Shadowtech, based his writings off the known science of the time. It wasn't perfect, but it still made a certain amount of sense. This doesn't.
Cthulhudreams
Essence loss is MAGIC.

It's a completely arbitary mechanism. Maybe it's a function of your soul? Who knows smile.gif

Saying it makes no biological sense doesn't really help - the mechanism doesn't even have to be biological. I mean hell, why does having wired reflexes and a second hand cyber limb installed mean you die, but becoming a brain in a jar actually works.

Its weird.

It clearly has a strong relationship to the 'rejectiness' of augmentations, but another element is 'spiritual'
Cain
If it's not biological, why the paragraphs upon paragraphs of bad pseudoscience? I've seen more convincing medical terms on Star Trek.

"Neurological Integration" is plain nonsense. It's like saying guns fire plastique to a Dumpshock firearms expert. Also, IIRC, one of the things mentioned for why alpha and better ware costs less essence is 'cause it's "Protein matched". If you're going to use semi-science, at least be consistent about it!
hyzmarca
I prefer the whole Metaphysical Pattern explanation. It neatly explains all forms of essence loss.
Cain
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I prefer the whole Metaphysical Pattern explanation. It neatly explains all forms of essence loss.

I agree. It basically says "it's magic" in a logical way. biggrin.gif
Tarantula
So, going off metaphysical pattern, how does having similar genes to the bioware help reduce your essence loss then?
Cain
Basically, the closer it is to you before augmentation, the less essence it costs. This remains true in SR4. So, if it closely matches your genes, it'll cost less essence.
Tarantula
Then why wouldn't it apply to cultured bioware as well?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Cain)
Both Type O and Cultured ware have a similar set of protein markers. We know that cultured ware isn't a perfect match, because it still triggers essence loss (while a cloned limb wouldn't). So, there's a set of foreign proteins floating around in both cultured and Type O bioware.

I like the pattern explanation as well.
I would disagree on the point that essence loss is due to protein mismatch. Rejection is due to protein markers not matching, I'll agree with that. I would say that type O simply does not have the offending markers, and Cultered has your markers, and thus they aren't offensive.
But the reason a cloned suprathyroid gland costs essence but a cloned thyroid gland doesn't has nothing to do with protein markers and everything to do with the functional change in the individual. Not so much the change of the gland, but the overall change in the individual. They are now significantly functionally deviating from their pattern, and that disconnect causes the loss of essence.
Tarantula
Moon-Hawk, then why would Type O help out at all for essence reduction?
Moon-Hawk
Ummmmmmm. Good point.
I guess I agree with Cain after all. "It's magic." biggrin.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Then why wouldn't it apply to cultured bioware as well?

It does. Cultured Bio is cloned from the user's own cells, so it would have a closer match to the individual. Cultured 'ware used to be the bioware equivalent of alphaware: it reduced the BioIndex cost.

The Type O edge is poorly based on long-since disused thinking. Blood Type O was considered to be the "Universal donor"-- anyone could accept it without problem. Nowadays, we have much more accurate methods of blood type matching that don't trigger an harsh response. However, Type O never made you into a "Universal Recipient", which is exactly what the Type O edge makes itself sound like.

So, yeah, the pattern theory works. "It's magic", in a logical way. cool.gif
Cthulhudreams
It doesn't make you into a universal recipient. It just makes you the same as the guy that was used to come up with the off the rack bioware.
Cain
Actually, it makes you a universal donor and a universal recipient. Even the name of the edge: "Type O" relates back to the universal donor/recipient thinking.
Buster
I gotta give credit to the game designers for catching their mistake and covering it up with a cough and a wink. Type O doesn't refer to blood type, it refers to the name of the first mutant who was born with the special transplant-friendly quality: Owen.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Then why wouldn't it apply to cultured bioware as well?

It did in previous editions.
Orient
My wife said the same thing when she read Augmentation, Cain.

For 30 pts, ruling (houseruling, I guess) that cultured bio also gets the bonus doesn't seem too out of bounds.

*shrug*

Edit: Wait, now she's saying I'm misquoting her. And she points out that "Type O System" doesn't differentiate between cultured and non-cultured bioware at all. Hmm.
Orient
Alright, there's a wording variation between SR4 and Augmentation. SR4 divides bioware into Standard (Orthoskin, etc) and Cultured (Brain-thingies, etc). Augmentation seems to label those same two categories as Standard and Cultured, instead. This overlaps with the grade "Standard," which, according to Augmentation, is off-the-shelf 'ware that's grown from Type O tissue.

So we can either assume that the Quality refers to non-cultured bioware or to non-alpha/beta/delta/used 'ware. Now, the bonus is based on the character having Type O tissues - tissues that match off-the-shelf basic bioware. Since cultured bioware is grown from the character's own tissue, it is (obviously) also of Type O tissue.

Does the character gain bonuses to cultured bioware? If not, then a regular chunk of cultured bioware is as 'high-grade" as it's going to get, and there is no justification for delta-grade cultured 'ware costing any less essence - for any character. This is false - delta grade cultured bioware is both essence friendly and really cool. So the bonuses must apply to cultured bioware as well.

; P
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