Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Misc rules questions 1
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Riley37
My PC has a Response 3 commlink and a Pilot 3 minidrone.
If I want to use the commlink for EW, I could buy a Rating 3 Agent for $3000, the EW autosoft at rating 3 ($600), Sniffer 3 ($1500), Decrypt 3 ($1500).
If I want to use the drone for EW, I buy the EW autosoft at rating 3 ($600), and Decrypt 3 ($1500); I don't need Agent because the drone has built-in Pilot; and for $150, I can install a Radio Scanner lvl 6, which acts as Sniffer 6.

Looks like the drone is the far, far better option, not requiring an Agent or a Sniffer program. Am I missing something? Does installing a radio scanner really fulfill all the abilities of the Sniffer program?

On BBB p. 227, under the description of the Spoof program, the only listed use is the "Redirect" action. However, the section on the Spoof Command, p. 224, says that the Spoof program is used with the Spoof Command action. Which is correct?

If the Agent on my commlink or the Pilot on my drone wants to send commands to someone else's drone, it needs to roll Hacking skill plus Spoof program. I don't see an autosoft that replicates the Hacking skill. -1 for defaulting, plus the Spoof program rating?
Fortune
Agents and Pilots use their Rating in place of Skills like Hacking and EW.
Riley37
A Pilot can have the EW Autosoft; does the Rating of the EW autosoft add, with their Pilot Rating, to the dice pool for "intercept, decrypt, jam signals" and related actions (quoted text from p. 240)?
If so, that gives Pilots a big advantage over Agents for such tasks.
It also makes a metahuman hacker much less replacable than a metahuman EW specialist.
If not, then what's the benefit, if any, of an EW autosoft rating higher than 1?
DireRadiant
p, 240
"Electronic Warfare
Th is provides the drone with an in-depth knowledge of
radio communications and the use of electronic warfare against
them. A Pilot with this autosoft can intercept, decrypt, jam signals,
and take on other actions made possible by the Electronic
Warfare skill (see p. 225)."

The roll will be
EW Autosoft + Program

Not
Pilot + AUtosoft + Program

Skill + Program is the model for wireless dice pools.
Fortune
So then, it is only Agents that use their Rating in place of the actual Skill?
Riley37
Ah, good point DireRadiant, but if Fortune is accurate then one can just use Pilot rating instead of Skill, which means that the autosoft conveys no improvement to the dice pool (unless a drone can use an autosoft at a higher rating than its Pilot rating, which strikes me as inconsistent unless the Pilot has a lower rating than the Response of the drone's hardware).
DireRadiant
p. 214
"In game terms, the
Pilot attribute stands in for
Computer, Cybercombat,
Data Search, and Hacking
skills, as called for. It may
also represent an agent,
IC, or drone’s “Mental
attributes? when called
for (usually Intuition and
Logic, and sometimes
Willpower)."

Note that EW is not on that list.

Therefore when rolling EW..

Pilot Skill of 0 + Program
hobgoblin
Interesting interpretation. I would say its more like:

Drones use autosofts

Agents use hacker software
Riley37
Agents are specialized in the virtual world while Pilots are the equivalent of "dual natured", running hardware that moves in meatspace while also acting as a node in contact with other nodes. But can an Agent run an EW autosoft, since that's all about abstract signals? if not as RAW, as a viable houserule? In general... what's a good limit on the AI of an Agent?

A rigger can operate a drone's guns, either as captain's-chair or jumped in, and if she has decent Gunnery+AGL, the drone's fire will be more accurate when directed by the rigger, than when the drone is operating on its own. Could a Rating 6 Agent operating on a Response 6 commlink, run a drone and direct its fire more effectively than the drone's low-end "dogbrain"?

I see a market for an AI program that runs on a commlink and can direct a group of drones as a coordinated fireteam... indeed, possibly assigning targets based on EW intel, eg lay down suppressing fire at locations where the radio scanner indicates that someone's operating a commlink, even if no target appears on visual scanners. (An AI getting signal scanner input from multiple drones should be able to triangulate locations of RF-broadcasting devices.)
Fortune
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
Interesting interpretation. I would say its more like:

Drones use autosofts

Agents use hacker software

That's what I always thought.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 9 2007, 06:16 AM)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Oct 9 2007, 01:59 PM)
Interesting interpretation. I would say its more like:

Drones use autosofts

Agents use hacker software

That's what I always thought.

but now that i think about it, that makes a EW autosoft equiped drone even more scary!

pilot and EW autosoft at 6, as big a signal rating as you can get away with, and stick it in a blimp...
Cheops
You'd still have the limitation of System = Response. So buy Response 5 and everything works at lower of System or 5.
Tarantula
And Pilot = System
Jaid
all that is required to use an autosoft is a pilot rating. agents have a pilot rating. therefore they can use autosofts.

the advantage to a pilot program over an agent in terms of dealing with computers is that your agent:

1) counts as a running program
2) needs to have a command program to be able to control devices at all.

whereas the pilot:

1) does not count as a running program
2) does not need any sort of special program to control most devices (with the exception of weapons, oddly).

this means that on average, a pilot of a given rating can have 2 more active programs than an agent of the same rating. which is a fairly significant difference, imo wink.gif

as far as "no rules for tripod/bipod/etc", i would direct your attention to the rules. feel free to point out where it says that vehicle mounted weapons do not have accessory mounts. let me know if you find somewhere, because i sure haven't. conclusion: vehicle mounted weapons *do* have accessory mounts, and therefore anything with an 'under' mount can be given a bipod or tripod (though i personally would represent this as extra bracing or whatever in the mount rather than an actual bipod or tripod for drones).
Fortune
So why can't I use a Pilot program on my Commlink instead of an Agent (or indeed instead of System)?
Jaid
QUOTE (Fortune)
So why can't I use a Pilot program on my Commlink instead of an Agent (or indeed instead of System)?

there is no explicit reason =P

however, i would consider ruling that the only way direct control over the commlink could be achieved would be to effectively rig it, thus overriding the pilot program entirely (note: you're not *actually* rigging it, you're just taking direct control and turning off the pilot program basically).

i would probably also not let you run an agent on the commlink, but that's pure houserule.

the pilot program, in any case, would be stuck to the commlink (so forget about sending it out to search the matrix) and would not be able to operate at the same time as you. it would be an excellent means of defending your commlink when you're afk (so to speak) but otherwise not really all that impressive.

i'd probably throw in a few more houserules for good measure, personally, but it would theoretically be doable.
Aaron
QUOTE (Jaid)
2) does not need any sort of special program to control most devices (with the exception of weapons, oddly).

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that this is more accurately "does not need any sort of special program to control the type of device for which it was designed."
Jaid
QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (Jaid)
2) does not need any sort of special program to control most devices (with the exception of weapons, oddly).

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that this is more accurately "does not need any sort of special program to control the type of device for which it was designed."

no, that's a common houserule though.

the rules don't say anything about pilot programs applying only to specific devices. but a lot of people think there's a problem with a doberman pilot being the same as a stormcloud pilot =P
Riley37
QUOTE (Jaid)
vehicle mounted weapons *do* have accessory mounts, and therefore anything with an 'under' mount can be given a bipod or tripod (though i personally would represent this as extra bracing or whatever in the mount rather than an actual bipod or tripod for drones).

Sure, and the drone/vehicle gets bipod/tripod RC whenever it sits, kneels, or fires from prone. Somehow I'm not quite satisfied that you've fully addressed the question.
DireRadiant
Pilots/Agents are special software in that it can be both an OS and a Program.

On a commlink, or any device with an OS already, it acts as a program.

On a device without it's own OS, it can act as OS and system.

There's no reason you couldn't get rid of the OS on a commlink and have your Agent act as it's OS. Except that then it can't wander off and operate independently.

There's no reason for a vehicle pilot to not have both an OS and a Pilot program. Except that since the Pilot software can act as it's own OS, and it's probably undesirable for the Pilot software to leave the device it's running in the case of your urban commuter vehicle, and it's cheaper to install one program instead of two.
Fortune
So, what benefits would (or could) a person gain by replacing his Commlink's OS with a Pilot? And couldn't he also just run an Agent on that Commlink as well?
Cheops
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Aaron @ Oct 9 2007, 05:40 PM)
QUOTE (Jaid)
2) does not need any sort of special program to control most devices (with the exception of weapons, oddly).

I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that this is more accurately "does not need any sort of special program to control the type of device for which it was designed."

no, that's a common houserule though.

the rules don't say anything about pilot programs applying only to specific devices. but a lot of people think there's a problem with a doberman pilot being the same as a stormcloud pilot =P

No...the problem I have with your interpretation of the rules is that a Pilot program designed for a Doberman shouldn't be able to operate:

1) Industrial Machinery
2) Household Appliances (eg wet/dry vacuum, window cleaner)
3) Medical Drones

etc.
eidolon
QUOTE (Jaid)
but a lot of people think there's a problem with a doberman pilot being the same as a stormcloud pilot


And for good reason.
Jaid
i never said it was a poorly-thought-out house rule, just that it's a house rule that's fairly widespread, and i gave the reason for the thinking behind it.

i personally have no major problems assuming that the pilot program basically connects to programming built-in to the body it's controlling (that is, a doberman has the information to control it built-in, and the pilot just tells that programming what to do, with a higher-rating pilot being both smarter and better able to integrate itself into the control interface) but i can certainly understand how some people don't like that approach =P
Alphastream
I found this thread and didn't really read a consensus.

A drone will use Autosoft + Pilot for most actions.

Reading the EW autosoft, it sounds like it supplants the other EW programs a hacker would normally use (
QUOTE
This provides the drone with an in-depth knowledge of radio communications and the use of electronic warfare against them. A Pilot with this autosoft can intercept, decrypt, jam signals, and take on other actions made possible by the Electronic Warfare skill (see p.225)
).

This would mean that a drone uses EW Autosoft rating + Pilot Rating, which would make sense.

Using Pilot + Program or EW Autosoft + Program would mean the drone would need different programs, which I think the book would have mentioned (Is there any case where a drone must use a program that isn't an autosoft?).

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Cheops
QUOTE (Alphastream)
I found this thread and didn't really read a consensus.

A drone will use Autosoft + Pilot for most actions.

Reading the EW autosoft, it sounds like it supplants the other EW programs a hacker would normally use (
QUOTE
This provides the drone with an in-depth knowledge of radio communications and the use of electronic warfare against them. A Pilot with this autosoft can intercept, decrypt, jam signals, and take on other actions made possible by the Electronic Warfare skill (see p.225)
).

This would mean that a drone uses EW Autosoft rating + Pilot Rating, which would make sense.

Using Pilot + Program or EW Autosoft + Program would mean the drone would need different programs, which I think the book would have mentioned (Is there any case where a drone must use a program that isn't an autosoft?).

Thoughts?

Thanks!

The way I read it and run it in my games is that the EW Autosoft gives them the EW skill so if they want to do anything with it they'll need the appropriate program (scan, sniffer, decrypt, etc).
DireRadiant
EW is one of the skills a Pilot does not come with. Therefore you need this autosoft for the Skill + Program test. In most cases Pilot = Skill, but not for EW.

p. 214

"In game terms, the
Pilot attribute stands in for
Computer, Cybercombat,
Data Search, and Hacking
skills, as called for. It may
also represent an agent,
IC, or drone’s “Mental
attributes? when called
for (usually Intuition and
Logic, and sometimes
Willpower)"

Scanning is a Scan Program + EW skill test, see p. 226

Sniffer is a Sniffer Program + EW skill test, see p. 227

Decrypt is a Decrypt Program + EW skill test, see page 227
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012