Any idea what a Bat Mentor Spirit would have as far as perks and drawbacks? I've been twisting with this for some time and no luck.
ADV: +2 Dice for Perception and Assensing tests, +2 Dice for detection spells
DIS: Character is stricken blind and may only use 'sonar' to see. This functions like the Ultrasound vision enhancement. They may still percieve their surroundings but finer details or most combat actions become difficult. Also, too much stimuli may 'blind' the poor sap.
That's what I got. Any any ieads, changes? Perhaps compelled to wear tights and chase down clowns?
Full Version: Bat Shaman
You keep encountering weird costumed freaks, but get the ability to create "Those toys! Where does he get those wonderful toys?"
One big problem: per the RAW, you can't cast spells through ultrasound. You must be able to see your target with vision or something that approximates vision that you buy with essence. Ultrasound does not directly observe a target, it only hears sound reflecting off a target and then makes a visual representation of the sound. Thus, your bat shaman would be a useless caster who could never cast spells at non-astrally active targets, ever.
Also, totem disadvantages never grant free special abilities... Even though your special ability is nerfy in a way, it also goes against what every other totem does. And ultrasound vision is equivalent to two adept powers, not just one - you need both the voice control and the hearing mods to have sonar as an adept. That's not so much a disadvantage, as it is two free adept powers for 5 points without you needing to be an adept or spend power points. Nerfy though ultrasound may be for a mage, that bat won't fly.
Your advantages are fine. But I would simply replace your disadvantage with either a -1 penalty for all actions during the day, or maybe even a Willpower + Charisma (3) test to stay awake during the day. But I'd probably make the advantages a little more powerful in exchange for the latter one.
Also, totem disadvantages never grant free special abilities... Even though your special ability is nerfy in a way, it also goes against what every other totem does. And ultrasound vision is equivalent to two adept powers, not just one - you need both the voice control and the hearing mods to have sonar as an adept. That's not so much a disadvantage, as it is two free adept powers for 5 points without you needing to be an adept or spend power points. Nerfy though ultrasound may be for a mage, that bat won't fly.
Your advantages are fine. But I would simply replace your disadvantage with either a -1 penalty for all actions during the day, or maybe even a Willpower + Charisma (3) test to stay awake during the day. But I'd probably make the advantages a little more powerful in exchange for the latter one.
Per SR3, they got bonuses to detection and manipulation spells (+2 dice) and for spirits of the sky (+1 die), and penalties to all magical target numbers while in direct sunlight (+2 to all TNs, you could translate that to -2 dice).
bats actually have pretty good eyesight. not great, but they're far from blind.
It's the symbolism of "Blind as a bat"
Ixombie, you do realize that sight is the brains interpretation of light waves as it is reflected off of objects right? I mean, I know by RAW Ultrasound doesn't work, but I'm just saying it is a very similar type of sight.
Chris
Chris
perhaps:
Disadvantage: Bat is hunter, but is often single-minded in his approach. Like his name sake, a bat-shaman often "zeros in" on his prey and swoops directly to the attack. When bat shamans become focused on a goal they often loose sight of the world around them. Bat shamans must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) test in order to break away once they have single-minded focused on a goal.
Or something like that, inspired by all-mighty Wikipedia
How's about this, I scratch your back, you scratch mine...I've a player who wants to play a weasel shaman, but I've fallen flat on my face for inspiration...Ideas?/
Disadvantage: Bat is hunter, but is often single-minded in his approach. Like his name sake, a bat-shaman often "zeros in" on his prey and swoops directly to the attack. When bat shamans become focused on a goal they often loose sight of the world around them. Bat shamans must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) test in order to break away once they have single-minded focused on a goal.
Or something like that, inspired by all-mighty Wikipedia
How's about this, I scratch your back, you scratch mine...I've a player who wants to play a weasel shaman, but I've fallen flat on my face for inspiration...Ideas?/
Totems typically represent the spirit of the animal, the basis of which tends to predate reliable data from the biological sciences. Bat totems would probably be considered at home in the dark or dealing with secret things, irrespective of how the actual animal perceives. (It's not like my Wolf Shaman gets discriminatory scent, for example.) That said, I'd be tempted to go with eidolon's SR3 update.
@ruknabard: All I know is weaseling out of things is what separates Man from the animals. Except for the weasel. Seeing's how weasels are to me somewhere between rats and raccoons, that's where I'd start looking for a weasel spirit.
@ruknabard: All I know is weaseling out of things is what separates Man from the animals. Except for the weasel. Seeing's how weasels are to me somewhere between rats and raccoons, that's where I'd start looking for a weasel spirit.
Hurm, well weasels are pretty much the smallest mammalian hunters. So give +1 to combat, and probably +2 to con, since 'Weaselly" is usually associated with being a bit untrustworthy. Maybe make them a bit of a kleptomaniac since they are known as pests for stealing chickens.
Mentor Spirit: Weasel
Adv: +2 dice to combat spells, +2 dice to Beast spirits, +1 die to Intimidate tests, +1 box overflow damage
Disads: May go berserk as per bear & will not retreat as per Wolf
Notes: Weasels may be seen in contemporary thought as lawyer [or used-car salesman] like, however they are vicious little buggers that take on much larger creatures and make said creatures run away crying. Let us not forget two closley related, rather renowned species, the Badger, and the legendary Wolverine.
Don't mess with weasels unless you like bleeding.
Adv: +2 dice to combat spells, +2 dice to Beast spirits, +1 die to Intimidate tests, +1 box overflow damage
Disads: May go berserk as per bear & will not retreat as per Wolf
Notes: Weasels may be seen in contemporary thought as lawyer [or used-car salesman] like, however they are vicious little buggers that take on much larger creatures and make said creatures run away crying. Let us not forget two closley related, rather renowned species, the Badger, and the legendary Wolverine.
Don't mess with weasels unless you like bleeding.
I think it's the perception humans have of the animal that defines the totem characteristics more than the reality. So if you wanted a combat weasel-like totem, then you'd need to call it wolverine.
Weasels may be (pound for pound) fierce creatures in reality, but I don't think popular consensus percieves them that way. I'd focus on the conniving sneaky aspect. (maybe bonus to sneak and con?).
Weasels may be (pound for pound) fierce creatures in reality, but I don't think popular consensus percieves them that way. I'd focus on the conniving sneaky aspect. (maybe bonus to sneak and con?).
Apparently you have never been attacked by a weasel... freaking demons they are, you almost have to kill the damn things to get them to let go. I've never been attacked, but I've seen it happen and those freaky little bastards kinda scare me now.
Chris
Chris
Just cooked this up...what do you guys think?/
Weasel
Weasel is an opportunist of the highest order. Both stealthy and a hunter, Weasel uses his natural guiles to overcome opponents. He prefers skullduggery, but is a worthy opponent when forced to stand his ground. Weasel is concerned chiefly with his own well being, often exploiting others to survive. He is only as loyal as much as his friends are charitable.
Advantages: +2 dice for Combat spells, +2 dice to either Infiltration or Con (player’s choice).
Disadvantage: A Weasel magician must succeed on a Willpower + Charisma (3) test to avoid taking advantage of someone else’s weakness, or from stealing when he thinks he is unobserved.
Weasel
Weasel is an opportunist of the highest order. Both stealthy and a hunter, Weasel uses his natural guiles to overcome opponents. He prefers skullduggery, but is a worthy opponent when forced to stand his ground. Weasel is concerned chiefly with his own well being, often exploiting others to survive. He is only as loyal as much as his friends are charitable.
Advantages: +2 dice for Combat spells, +2 dice to either Infiltration or Con (player’s choice).
Disadvantage: A Weasel magician must succeed on a Willpower + Charisma (3) test to avoid taking advantage of someone else’s weakness, or from stealing when he thinks he is unobserved.
who would have guessed this from an organic slinky!
But I still agree with Apathy - an "Owl" is not more "wise" than any other creature if anything it too (in reality) could be considered somewhat of a 'berserker' but then at the core aren't all animals? I mean let's talk about the "Beta Totem" while we're at it.
But it's true that the "spirit" of the creature is what forms the basis of the totem, not the reality. This is why cat is "playful" when most of my cats are just "lazy". Seriously I have 1 that just wants to swipe at the toy but not exert the effort to actually get up and chase the toy. He also hates when his cat treats are too far away from his pillow.
But I still agree with Apathy - an "Owl" is not more "wise" than any other creature if anything it too (in reality) could be considered somewhat of a 'berserker' but then at the core aren't all animals? I mean let's talk about the "Beta Totem" while we're at it.
But it's true that the "spirit" of the creature is what forms the basis of the totem, not the reality. This is why cat is "playful" when most of my cats are just "lazy". Seriously I have 1 that just wants to swipe at the toy but not exert the effort to actually get up and chase the toy. He also hates when his cat treats are too far away from his pillow.
| QUOTE (ruknabard) |
| Just cooked this up...what do you guys think?/ Weasel Weasel is an opportunist of the highest order. Both stealthy and a hunter, Weasel uses his natural guiles to overcome opponents. He prefers skullduggery, but is a worthy opponent when forced to stand his ground. Weasel is concerned chiefly with his own well being, often exploiting others to survive. He is only as loyal as much as his friends are charitable. Advantages: +2 dice for Combat spells, +2 dice to either Infiltration or Con (player’s choice). Disadvantage: A Weasel magician must succeed on a Willpower + Charisma (3) test to avoid taking advantage of someone else’s weakness, or from stealing when he thinks he is unobserved. |
I kind of like this take on it - also gives new meaning to the phrase "You can't trust that little weasel!"
| QUOTE (ruknabard) |
| Disadvantage: A Weasel magician must succeed on a Willpower + Charisma (3) test to avoid taking advantage of someone else’s weakness, or from stealing when he thinks he is unobserved. |
GM: Tell me again why you decided to kill the other PCs and ruin the game?
Player: It's my totem. I was roleplaying. I think I deserve extra karma. Can I have theirs, since they're dead and all?
I'm not saying this will happen; you know your players, but this sort of thing sends up warning flags in my brain.
Also, there's the imminent thread of your game being destroyed by unrelenting bad Pauly Shore impressions.
These two caveats aside, it looks like a pretty good totem.
| QUOTE (DTFarstar) |
| Ixombie, you do realize that sight is the brains interpretation of light waves as it is reflected off of objects right? I mean, I know by RAW Ultrasound doesn't work, but I'm just saying it is a very similar type of sight. Chris |
Sure, I'll concede that, but only if your definition of "very similar" is "fundamentally different."
Light is nothing like sound. Light is electromagnetic radiation. It is a wave/particle of pure energy. It can travel through space in total vacuum. We percieve it when it hits cells in our retinas, exciting them, causing them to fire, and going to our brains where we can percieve them.
Sound is also energy, and it is also a wave but it is not made up of particles like light. It is created by the vibration of a medium, usually air or water. Sound is, in other words, a vibration. It cannot exist in vacuum like light can. And our ears hear sound by feeling how much it vibrates the tiny bones and other thingummies in our ears and sending THAT to the brain.
So, the similarity is that they are both energy and they are both sent to the brain through some kind of sensory organ. But in terms of their actual physical difference, they are very dissimilar. They are also nothing alike in terms of how we percieve them. Now, I can't claim to understand why this difference is significant for magic. Why does magic need an unobstructed line of sight? Because it does. There is something special about vision, and ultrasound, though it is also an interpretation of an outside stimulus by the brain, is not going to cut it.
Badgers?! We don't need no stinking badgers! 
I was just trying to tweak your nose, but anyway, I know they aren't the same thing, but they are similar. Way closer than say touch or taste. Also, the process of ultrasound is similar in that while the sound is generated at you, it is still sent out and reflected off of objects and that is how they are measured and "seen" similar to the way that the type of shape, color, and size we see is dependent upon how the light from a source(this case the sun or a lightbulb or something) reflects off of an object and certain wavelengths are absorbed(in this case causing color).... huh, is sound partially absorbed for the same reason? I dunno. Anyway, I mean yeah you get specific enough and there are HUGE differences between our sight and the sight of someone who is red-green colorblind when it comes to the brain physiology and reaction to certain sights. I was just pointing out that the two are more similar than people would think at first and that the only real reason I think they restrict mages that way is game balance issues not otherwise.
Again, all just my observations and I wasn't trying to get you riled up, was just kinda kidding around.
Chris
Again, all just my observations and I wasn't trying to get you riled up, was just kinda kidding around.
Chris
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Badgers?! We don't need no stinking badgers! |
Steve Martin totem?
The 3 Amigos totem - bonus to Edge, but must take Incompetence (Etiquette).
| QUOTE (ruknabard) |
| perhaps: Disadvantage: Bat is hunter, but is often single-minded in his approach. Like his name sake, a bat-shaman often "zeros in" on his prey and swoops directly to the attack. When bat shamans become focused on a goal they often loose sight of the world around them. Bat shamans must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) test in order to break away once they have single-minded focused on a goal. Or something like that, inspired by all-mighty Wikipedia How's about this, I scratch your back, you scratch mine...I've a player who wants to play a weasel shaman, but I've fallen flat on my face for inspiration...Ideas?/ |
Hmm:
+2 dice for stealth and con, +2 dice for illusion spells or manipulation
The weasel is a cunning and stealthy trickster, well suited from working from the background and maniplating and tricking people into doing things
Disadvanage: Weasel is self-centered and vain chose either:
Self-Serving: Weasel is most concerned with herself. To put herself at risk for no direct gain helping other she must make a willpower+charisma (3) test
Vain: Weasel is often a vain creature. If made to appear poorly (dirty, smelly, cast in a bad light, etc), weasel will focus on addressing this first and foremost. To ignore the inglorious appearance, she must make a willpower+charisma(3) test
Weasels are great athletes, but they're ravenous li'l buggers with a metabolism that runs at a truly high idle. Perhaps a bonus to gymnastics and a small lifestyle cost increase or fatigue test penalty would be appropriate.
Also, shrews are technically predators; the Etruscan pygmy shrew eats like 3 times its own body weight in insects per day. Of course, the thing does happen to weigh in at under a tenth of an ounce, but hey, that's still technically predation!
Also, shrews are technically predators; the Etruscan pygmy shrew eats like 3 times its own body weight in insects per day. Of course, the thing does happen to weigh in at under a tenth of an ounce, but hey, that's still technically predation!
| QUOTE (DTFarstar) |
| I was just trying to tweak your nose, but anyway, I know they aren't the same thing, but they are similar. Way closer than say touch or taste. Also, the process of ultrasound is similar in that while the sound is generated at you, it is still sent out and reflected off of objects and that is how they are measured and "seen" similar to the way that the type of shape, color, and size we see is dependent upon how the light from a source(this case the sun or a lightbulb or something) reflects off of an object and certain wavelengths are absorbed(in this case causing color).... huh, is sound partially absorbed for the same reason? I dunno. Anyway, I mean yeah you get specific enough and there are HUGE differences between our sight and the sight of someone who is red-green colorblind when it comes to the brain physiology and reaction to certain sights. I was just pointing out that the two are more similar than people would think at first and that the only real reason I think they restrict mages that way is game balance issues not otherwise. Again, all just my observations and I wasn't trying to get you riled up, was just kinda kidding around. Chris |
There isn't much of a difference between normal vision and a red-green colorblind person, or for that matter the vision of any mammal. Though the colorblind person probably has a defective protein in their rods or cones or something, and though various animals have better/worse vision than us, eyes still work by the same principle, which is a different principle from how ears work.
But I'm not getting riled up, I was just interested in some measure of accuracy. I realize that you were just kidding, and that's fine, but I can't let such gross misstatements stand unchallenged
Overall, I think the best argument against the OP's bat idea is that bats are far from blind, that's why they have those ginormous eyes. They use sonar to hunt, but it's not the only thing they have to navigate with.
| QUOTE |
| One big problem: per the RAW, you can't cast spells through ultrasound. You must be able to see your target with vision or something that approximates vision that you buy with essence. Ultrasound does not directly observe a target, it only hears sound reflecting off a target and then makes a visual representation of the sound. Thus, your bat shaman would be a useless caster who could never cast spells at non-astrally active targets, ever. |
I considered this, and was willing to make a loose exception to the rule, the ultrasound 'pings' an image in their field of vision and would permit them to still lock-on and channel a spell. Since it's going to be an NPC I wasn't to worried about making it 'spot on' as far as rules were concerned.
| QUOTE |
| Also, totem disadvantages never grant free special abilities... Even though your special ability is nerfy in a way, it also goes against what every other totem does. And ultrasound vision is equivalent to two adept powers, not just one - you need both the voice control and the hearing mods to have sonar as an adept. That's not so much a disadvantage, as it is two free adept powers for 5 points without you needing to be an adept or spend power points. Nerfy though ultrasound may be for a mage, that bat won't fly. |
Ultrasound vision suffers penalties for everything but glare, with the added penalty of not being able to discern detail or features. Basically the character could not read, see through glass, discern the amount of light in a room, or lack there of, or see a reflection of some goon sneaking up behind them in a mirror or window. Also since the mage in question would not have voice control or hearing mods he obviously would not have 'sonar' in the beneficial sense. He'd have Ultrasound vision like what is described in the BBB Gear section under "Vision Enhancers". Any discussion about Adepts or their powers is irrelevant; we're not talking about Adepts.
I smell someone cooking up a Drop-Bear totem 
So if you could only use Ultrasound would you be able see "normally" in the astral?
| QUOTE (Warmaster Lah) |
| So if you could only use Ultrasound would you be able see "normally" in the astral? |
The mage would still be 'blind' in the astral. He'd 'sense' the general directions things may be in, and can lock onto those things for the sake of spell casting or even assensing, but the limitation to the vision would extend there as well.
Honestly, and I hate to use the reference but, astral space might look a lot like what Daredevil's vision looked like in the movie. The mage sends out a 'pulse', and objects would be drawn and shaped as that pulse washes over them.
He'd still get AP, but even there he is as blind as a bat.
Astral Perception is not sight! It's an entirely separate sense (it's magic, y'know?). Blind or not, assensing would work normally.
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