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bibliophile20
Alright, in response to Moon-Hawk's comments over in the stealthy mind control thread, I came up with the following NPC (and, honestly, I think I'm going to use her):

Name: Carey
Metatype: Human
Sex: Female

Attributes:
B 3
A 5
R 4
S 2
C 2
I 5
L 2
W 5
EDG 5
M 5
ESS 6
Init 9

Qualities:
Magician: Hedge Witch
Mentor Spirit: Lilith (Dark Goddess)
Geas: Touch Range Spellcasting only (cannot cast LOS spells; can only cast on self or on someone she's touching)
Expert Aspected Magician: Sorcerer Aspect (I use the suggestion in the Tweaking The Rules in my game)

Skills:
Unarmed Combat 5
Spellcasting 5 (Spec: Combat)
Counterspelling 4
Stealth Group 4
Influence Group 3
Medicine 3

Spells:
Death Touch
Shatter
Knockout
Decrease Willpower
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Increase Charisma
Combat Sense
Improved Invisibility
Diagnose

Force 6 Stacked Focus (2 Heath Spellcasting/4 Health Sustaining)
Assorted other gear

Building her on the SR4Chargen excel sheet, she comes out to about 500 BP (465 with this, but, hey, who's counting?)

So, normal battle tactics would be to sneak in close on her target, using Improved Invis, and engage in some direct damage dealing via the following:
Unarmed 5 + Agil 5 + Touch Attack 2 = 12 melee

Assuming that she manages to touch the target, first comes a Force 4 Decrease Willpower; her base spellcasting pool is 10, so let's give the spell 5 dice... and add in 6 more for the mentor spirit bonus, the focus and the expert aspected magician quality. Rolling that against the average 3 Willpower gives her three or four hits to the target's 1, reducing him to 1 or (ouch) 0 on willpower, giving him little to no defense against the other spell being cast--a Force 6 Death Touch.

Death Touch gets the other five dice from the spellcasting pool, and then another 6 dice for the mentor spirit, the specialization in combat spells, and the Expert aspected magician. So, again, 11 dice... against, at most, 1 Willpower. If she Edges the roll, the target is toast, almost guaranteed.

Drain on both spells:
Decrease Willpower: 4
Death Touch: 2

A one trick pony? A bit. But she'd make a fun and very, very dangerous contact to have--considering the Dark Goddess' disadvantage
QUOTE (SM pg 181)
Ruled by extremes of both creation and
destruction, followers of the Dark Goddess often relish in
confrontation. They must make a Willpower + Charisma (3)
Test to avoid escalating a conflict, no matter how small, into a
major clash, whether physical, mental, or social.

one misspoken word around the negotiation table and the PCs are royally screwed.

I think my players are going to be very unhappy and potentially much more polite to the NPCs.
Moon-Hawk
Nice. I know I kinda shot down this strategy in the other thread, but you got the bonus dice to really make it pay off. Well done! smile.gif
Tarantula
And this is why shock frills are a samurais best friend. Not only do they give you taser damage on unarmed attacks, but people who touch you get zapped by them too! And with her body 3 + will 5 she'd be hard pressed to make that threshold 3 test not to end up on the floor incapacitated for a while.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
Nice. I know I kinda shot down this strategy in the other thread, but you got the bonus dice to really make it pay off. Well done! smile.gif

*bows* Thank you, thank you...

biggrin.gif
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Tarantula)
And this is why shock frills are a samurais best friend. Not only do they give you taser damage on unarmed attacks, but people who touch you get zapped by them too! And with her body 3 + will 5 she'd be hard pressed to make that threshold 3 test not to end up on the floor incapacitated for a while.

Called shot to bypass armor--unless he's walking around in full body armor, there's a bare patch of skin for her to shoot for.
Tarantula
Average sam with armor jacket + helmet = 8 impact. That drops you to 4 dice, and they get reaction + unarmed/dodge for defense. You won't hit doing that.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Average sam with armor jacket + helmet = 8 impact. That drops you to 4 dice, and they get reaction + unarmed/dodge for defense. You won't hit doing that.

True, but the sam still needs to activate thosse shock frills; if she gets the drop on him, he's toast. Also, here's another point--she might get stunned by the frills, but he'll be dead from the spells. And if she managed to isolate him from his teammates before delivering the coup de grace, she might be able to recover before they get to him (doubly so if this happened on his downtime and insulted the wrong girl at the bar).
Tarantula
Arguably, if shes incapacitated, then she can't cast the spells.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Arguably, if shes incapacitated, then she can't cast the spells.

I think it would be a double-knockdown, honestly--she gets jolted and, at the same instant, hits him with the spells.

Additionally, your electricity countermeasure will only apply for those PCs that actually purchase armor with shock frills. Also, if her stats get bumped up, or if she gets an Armor spell Quickened, then the chance of her getting dropped from the shock decrease.
Tarantula
I'd say she has to actually contact the samurai to cast the spell. Which means the frills would hit her first.

Yes, and as I said, its a great touch deterrent for samurais. Almost all of mine pick it up, no reason not to. You wanna punch me? Fine, get zapped for it.

Quickened armor spell? As long as you take any damage from the shock, you're likely going to drop incapacitated. (Body + Will (3) test to not be incapacitated).
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 17 2007, 03:42 PM)
Quickened armor spell?  As long as you take any damage from the shock, you're likely going to drop incapacitated. (Body + Will (3) test to not be incapacitated).

*sigh*
QUOTE (SR4 pg 154)
The struck target must make a Body + Willpower (3) Test. Apply half the character’s Impact armor (round down) and any other dice pool modifiers as noted above to this test.


Between an armor vest (or jacket, if her body is raised), and six or more points in impact armor, she could make the threshold fairly easily (possibly even buying hits if her body is raised a point).
Tarantula
Doh! Forgot about half impact to that test. Either way, a sam without his mage would just as easily fall to a manabolt. With less fancyness to boot.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Doh! Forgot about half impact to that test. Either way, a sam without his mage would just as easily fall to a manabolt. With less fancyness to boot.

A death touch spell is a touch version of manabolt, so... yeah.

But don't forget that this character is (mostly) an experiment in A) using the touch versions of the combat spells, B) using the (comparatively) infrequently used Decrease Attribute spells and C) the double spellcasting rules.
Tarantula
Because rather than multicasting, she could just dump it all on the decrease willpower, and drop it to 0, then slowly stab the sam to death with her salad fork. Once any stat is decreased to 0, the fights over, and it doesn't matter how you kill them.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Because rather than multicasting, she could just dump it all on the decrease willpower, and drop it to 0, then slowly stab the sam to death with her salad fork. Once any stat is decreased to 0, the fights over, and it doesn't matter how you kill them.

Nah, she'd use a spork, or at least a grapefruit spoon--salad forks are too dainty. biggrin.gif
NightRain
Some thoughts. It might be worth giving her a sustaining foci so she can sustain that invisibility when in melee without a dicepool penalty, as that will make her job that much easier.

And don't dual cast spells go off at the same moment? That would mean as well as only needing on the one melee attack to touch the target with both spells, both spells would go off at the same instant, meaning that the targets willpower would not have dropped. She'd have to drop his willpower with one action, then survive long enough to touch him again with the death touch spell to get the advantage of the lower willpower
bibliophile20
QUOTE (NightRain)
Some thoughts. It might be worth giving her a sustaining foci so she can sustain that invisibility when in melee without a dicepool penalty, as that will make her job that much easier.

And don't dual cast spells go off at the same moment? That would mean as well as only needing on the one melee attack to touch the target with both spells, both spells would go off at the same instant, meaning that the targets willpower would not have dropped. She'd have to drop his willpower with one action, then survive long enough to touch him again with the death touch spell to get the advantage of the lower willpower

She has a sustaining focus (for the Increase Reflexes spell, but that's easily changed); it's part of a stacked focus with a spellcasting focus.

And I think that both spells would go off at the same instant, but the decrease willpower would drop his willpower fast enough that the Death Touch spell could take advantage of it.
NightRain
QUOTE (bibliophile20)
She has a sustaining focus (for the Increase Reflexes spell, but that's easily changed); it's part of a stacked focus with a spellcasting focus.

My bad. I'm on about three hours sleep smile.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (NightRain @ Oct 18 2007, 06:27 AM)
And don't dual cast spells go off at the same moment?

QUOTE (SR4 pg.173)
Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples of the same spell—for example, to target two different opponents with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her Magic + Spellcasting dice pool between each target. Additionally, the Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least one die.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (NightRain @ Oct 18 2007, 06:27 AM)
And don't dual cast spells go off at the same moment?

QUOTE (SR4 pg.173)
Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples of the same spell—for example, to target two different opponents with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her Magic + Spellcasting dice pool between each target. Additionally, the Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least one die.

Thanks!
DTFarstar
Since all you have to do is touch the target not maintain any sort of contact with them, I would definitely rule that the spells go off no matter what happens with the shock. Seems easiest to me. I dunno, just saying it makes sense that the touch is the culmination of the spell not the beginning.

Chris
Glyph
I'm really don't think you would get the full mentor spirit and expert spellcaster bonuses to both spells - you should be splitting the entire dice pool, although the focus and specialization bonuses would apply more specifically.

I also don't see why she would really need the Decrease Willpower spell. It's counterproductive. You get a hit about every three dice, and a hit takes away one of the target's dice. That's not a good trade. Plus, if it does go off first, you will be suffering a sustaining penalty on casting that death touch spell. If you're going to overcast the death touch anyways, then overcast it at Force: 9, giving you the same physical Drain of 2. You're rolling 16 dice, with successes capped at 9 dice, and any net hits add to a base 9 damage - even someone with a Willpower of 6 will get, on average, 2 hits to your 5, and unless they are a better than average troll, they will be going down.

If you do use this combo, it actually works better with stun touch, since the decrease Willpower not only takes away resistance dice, but lowers their stun condition monitor.
Fortune
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 18 2007, 02:51 PM)
I'm really don't think you would get the full mentor spirit and expert spellcaster bonuses to both spells - you should be splitting the entire dice pool, although the focus and specialization bonuses would apply more specifically.

Technically, The rules define the Pool as being Skill + Attribute (in this case) and is clear thar this is what is split into two different subPools. Any and all Pools additives and modifiers, both negative and positive, affect each subPool.

Consider that one of the Spells that is cast, or even two might not be affected by all or even any of the different modifiers. If you cast a Combat, Manipulation and Health Spell combo, your Combat Spell Specialization wouldn't help the Health Spell or the Manipulation, and your Bear Mentor wouldn't help the non Health Spells, but your Stacked Health/Manipulation Spellcasting Foci would help in both applicable cases.
DTFarstar
removes the problem of casting a manipulation spell and a combat spell and getting half the bonus from the Sun mentor to the manip spell.

Chris
NightRain
QUOTE (Fortune)
Technically, The rules define the Pool as being Skill + Attribute (in this case)

Actually, they define the pool as including the modifiers...

QUOTE (SR4 p54.)
The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply
Fortune
It really is moot because the text I quoted above specifically outlines the Pool that is split.

QUOTE (SR4 pg 173)
Multiple spells may be cast with the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her Magic + Spellcasting dice pool between each target.


In one of the only other places where the rules address the splitting of Dice Pools, they have this to say ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 141)
Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.


Seems like a fitting precedent in place of any other ruling on the matter.
Magus
I am kinda confused by the shock frills, I've seen them but never used them. Aren't they only at the cuff's of the sleeve?
Tarantula
QUOTE
Shock Frills: hese strips of “furâ€? are electrically charged when  activated,  standing  on  end  and  inlicting  Electricity damage (p. 154) to anyone that comes into contact. this modfication must  be  used with  the  nonconductivity modification (so that the wearer does not get shocked). Use unarmed Combat  to attack with  the  frills. he  frills hold 10 charges; when attached to a power point, they reload one charge per 10 seconds.


Open your book. I'd say they're all over.
Magus
Thanks Tarantula. This looks like something my Troll merc would like to add to his collection.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
if she gets the drop on him, he's toast.

if SOMEONE gets the drop on ANYONE . . the latter is generally toast in SR . .
and using improved invisibility does squat against things like ultra sound and radar vision enhancement or other such stuff . .
Glyph
I applaud him taking such a significant limitation to a PC (touch spells only). Normal mages have a lot more options to get the drop on someone. They could be behind a parked car's one-way glass, or looking out a third-story window, or be a nondescipt stranger in the middle of a crowd. All of a sudden, you're resisting a manabolt, and you don't even know where it's coming from...
Dayhawk
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 17 2007, 03:42 PM) *
Quickened armor spell? As long as you take any damage from the shock, you're likely going to drop incapacitated. (Body + Will (3) test to not be incapacitated).


But if the spell is Quickened then even if they are incapacitated it remains up.

From how it sounds in the book, disrupting a Quickened spell only happens if you lose them to a barrier or they are dispelled (which is pretty hard for a high force spell)
suppenhuhn
i think this whole concept would be much more interesting if your willpower decrease was followed by some manipulation spell. making an instakill machine with 500 bps isn't hard really and you would be just as deadly when only using the deathtouch.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 19 2007, 11:45 PM) *
I applaud him taking such a significant limitation to a PC (touch spells only).

Why do you applaud making a character weaker?

~J
raverbane
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 15 2008, 05:20 PM) *
Why do you applaud making a character weaker?

~J



Some folks acutally make characters based on, gasp, character concept. As opposed to straight combat min/maxing
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (raverbane @ Feb 15 2008, 08:19 PM) *
Some folks acutally make characters based on, gasp, character concept. As opposed to straight combat min/maxing

But "weaker than it could have been" is not an interesting concept.

~J
Glyph
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 15 2008, 02:20 PM) *
Why do you applaud making a character weaker?

~J


You're asking me what I was thinking 4 months ago? Not really sure, now. Probably not the "roleplaying", since I don't traditionally go for the "gimping your character is roleplaying" school of thought. Plus, this wasn't a character background thread, but more of a proposed tactic thread - it's about as much of a roleplaying thread as those "How much armor can I give my troll tank?" threads.

Maybe I was applauding him for trying to think up some new tactics. I like these "concept" discussions - everyone dissects the tactic/build/whatever, and by the end, either all of its flaws are exposed, or people find the best way to make it work. Or maybe I was being a bit tongue in cheek, pointing out that while this character is sneaking up invisibly, other mages can be inobtrusive much more easily, and don't have to get into a sammie's melee range. I honestly don't remember, though.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 15 2008, 11:12 PM) *
You're asking me what I was thinking 4 months ago?

Well, yeah, except totally without the "noticing that it was four months ago" bit.

I blame the fact that I'd just gone 54 hours without sleeping and hadn't made up the sleep debt yet.

~J
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