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FriendoftheDork
Sure, while it's fun to do missions in your team's home city be it Seattle, Denver or Hong Kong, sometime in their career they will get a job in a different city or nation, and will have to travel there by means other than their own.

While monorail and bus travel may accept rating 1 and 2 SINs and have no weapons/'ware control, I expect that air travel will be more secure. Terrorism is not a thing of the past, and the existence of Shadowrunners and crazy mages will probably make air security (or space security) tighter than Euphoria's ass.

I remember in a SR3 module I played, the team had to basically leave behind all the weapons and illegal stuff, and deactivate illegal cyber or buy fake licenses at premium costs. It was a cool scenario, but would it be necessary?

So what do you think is required for foreign travel? Rating 6 SINs? Licenses for all wepons? Good lucking trying to get forbidden (F) gear through - unless they are inconspicous or you bribe the airport cargo security heavily.

Any betterwiesser comments, thoughtful perspectives or constructive discussion is appricated smile.gif
HappyDaze
It all depends on how heavily you enforce the Big Brother aspect of the game vs. degeneration and dystopia. I favor the latter far more heavily after seeing how tedious a 'perfect system' can be for GM and players.

Remember that the Movement power of Spirits can make travel really fast. Add in Concealment and you can accomplish a great deal. Lastly, fake some ID signals of various sorts via hacking/technomancy and you canhand waive it if you wish.

Most travel is typically still the Indiana Jones style 'red line on a map' since it's pretty dull most of the time. I try to make every played-out scene have a dramatic purpose, and for most professional shadowrunners, travelling to the missiuon site is typically not dramatically signifcant.
Fortune
And there's always smugglers and the like that you can use.
Big D
It depends on what your cover is.

If you're going to be in places where your identity will be checked or otherwise raise suspicion, you're going to have to have a solid cover (same thing as having good fake SINs if you want to buy a car from a legit dealer, etc.). That means mostly or completely "legal" entry, sleazing your way through the system to prevent any flags from being raised. The catch is that you may have a hard time with chrome, will have to leave a lot of gear behind, and if your cover gets blown, you could be seriously hosed.

OTOH, if you're jetting over to Oz to perform some very messy, violent wetwork, and want no traces that could ever possibly lead back to you, then you want smugglers, spirits, or something else that completely bypasses "normal" travel. You may be able to keep your gear, and you bypass the normal security checks. But if you get caught at the border, or if somebody asks for your papers... you're hosed and have no alibi to hide behind.
FriendoftheDork
Nice idea about Movement power. Concealment will probably not be enough (although every bit helps), and I'm not sure if those works against sensors.

IMO the BB aspect of the game IS the major contributor to dystopia. And airlines should be at least as secure as they are today to make it believable.

Smuggling is an option though, and one Shadowrunners would often take to get the good stuff (or their Sammie) through customs. The downside is that it's expensive and only viable on the really high-paying missions. Smuggling a team of runners could well cost... what 50k? 100k? That's not much compared to the gear you'd need to get past the borders undetected.

Of course sometimes the Johnson pays for all the travel, and may even arange to get them all overlooked in customs, especially if the Johson has connections inside the airline company (may even be part of his employer).

Still, being SINless and a walking combat machine SHOULD have some drawbacks IMHO, and hassle through customs should be one of them. Most customers will not have illegal ware, so It makes sense to airline companies to check passangers with cyberware scanners, and if detecting unlicenced or forbidden cyber they will be taken aside, getting a more thorough SIN check, and possibly held for local authorities/extradited.

Of course, supersoldiers and big execs with this kind of ware will have aranged for their travels beforehand, and can take pretty much anything with them short of a nuclear device.

Yeah, sometimes travel can be Indy style, but they should at leasy go though hassle ONCE unless they take precautions. Once they have a plan, they just scratch the nuyen needed and they're there.

What do you think? And BTW what level fake SIN do you think would be required to get through (seattle) customs or even on the plane?
Big D
The level of SIN is as much a function of where you're going as anything else.

I believe there's shadowtalk in multiple books stressing that commercial or national areas in an airport are extraterritorial. Do NOT enter the Tir checkin counter with heavy chrome unless you have a rating 6 SIN and full licenses for everything, or you might as well have been caught running the border. Just entering the airport, however, might require just a rating 2 plus a low-rating license for your chrome so that it doesn't label you as a potential terrorist.

All that said, given the dystopian nature of the world, almost everybody can be bribed; but, that doesn't mean it'll be cheap, or that they won't doublecross you.
TheMadDutchman
Typically in the games I've been in if the Johnson wants out of town shooters he's willing to pay a lot to get them. This means that if the team has the capability to travel built in than they're going to make a lot of nuyen.gif otherwise they'll probably make a little more than their standard rates and Mr. J'll have to get them to the run.

In most cases the Johnson usually arranges a local fixer to help get any gear the team might need once they arrive.
DTFarstar
Huh, I haven't paid too much attention to biodrones as a whole, or really cloning tech either, but it would be interesting to clone yourself, get him a legal SIN and all the tech you have, magic license if you are a mage, all kinds of stuff. Set him up with a medium lifestyle for free and tell him all he has to do is go on trips for you. When you need to be someplace, send him on vacation, get him a job interview, etc. and then if you are caught you have a copy of all his papers and such and you are just life "I'm not from around here, I got lost" etc. etc.

Would that work at all? Like I said I haven't paid too much attention to cloning or biodrones and one of my players has my copy of Aug. right now so I can't check.

Chris
Riley37
People who have modded their body into a killing machine should have difficulty dealing with polite society in general. Getting a ticket on a major carrier could require a cover identity as a sanctioned corporate or military security professional. But if you're at that budget level, how about chartering your own airplane?

If your gear isn't implanted, how about shipping it to the site? The controls on shipping crates are rarely as severe as the controls on what people carry on their person as they cross the border. You'd need a carrier you can trust, and presumably one that charges extra for "hazardous contents" without asking exactly what those contents are. Picking up the gear might be a scene worth playing out, just to make the players sweat a little while they're unarmed (or less-that-usually armed).

My sammie PC is augmented, but nothing visible without a scan and nothing that's unambiguously a weapon, just stuff that makes him more dangerous when he happens to have a weapon.
Big D
QUOTE
Would that work at all? Like I said I haven't paid too much attention to cloning or biodrones and one of my players has my copy of Aug. right now so I can't check.

Not really, you can't clone your mind, just your body.

So, your alibi would be limited to Weekend at Bernies style antics.

Unless, of course, you stuffed your clone body with skillwires, and then Inhabited it with an ally of at least F3-4, and maybe gave it a couple of spells like Physical Mask. Then, by using activesofts, it could pretend to be you doing a job interview, or tourist things, or whatever.

But then, heck, do the same thing with a high-force spirit and have it run for you. nyahnyah.gif
DTFarstar
Ah, I assumed they would come out like babies or severe coma patients and what not and just kind of be a blank slate. Know how to breathe and that's about it, but you could teach them walking, talking, eating, sleeping etc. and just because your hacker contact/party member sets up a job interview doesn't mean they have to even come close to getting the job.[rant]There are ALOT of people today who are completely unqualified but have a high opinion of themselves and waste my damned time. [/rant].

But, I guess not, alas it was an interesting idea. Would make Fake SINs work out alot better as you could link them to his purchasing schedule and so they would stay active.

"I swear, I wasn't at your corp today! Someone planted that DNA! Go get the Java Hut video feed, check their financial records! I was drinking coffee with a nice young lady earlier at 12:46PM! Go check! Please! I don't know why I'm here!"

Chris
Kyoto Kid
...in one campaign I was in, even the air taxi from SeaTac to downtown required going through a scanner "arch". The character I was running had a lot of questionable though not F ware (well...except for her Sim Mod). She ended up having to hack a Johnny Cab® to get back into town because the Star was on to her.

In another campaign (3rd Ed) we made the mistake of using the commercial tickets we were given by the Johnson to return to Seattle (after ditching all our weapons and gear) when the mission was completed. We were also too broke to "charter" a smuggler flight. Whoo boy what a clusterf**k that was.

…this brings me to one of those Golden Rules of Running: Never, Ever fly commercial on a job no matter how good you think or are told your cover ID is.
Narse
Now you've peaked my interest. What happened??
Kyoto Kid
...well we all got hauled into the Star & had to be bailed out by our backup characters...

...who in turn got burned by Ares who's space station the first group messed with (Wake of the Comet). My character on the raid ended up with a mystery piece of Cyber and a cortex bomb courtesy of your friendly well known AAA arms company. I basically killed the campaign when the GM expected us to break into a heavily secured Ares Compound by having my character convince the others it was a one way mission to hell. Yeah this was the same character with the Kink bomb & mystery ware who Ares no doubt had a full dossier on and was just waiting to see show up.

This GM had a penchant for putting you into Kobyashi Maru scenarios. We ended up refusing the job and went off clubbing in Seattle.
FriendoftheDork
Never fly commercial? Ahhh, that takes the fun out of it. I mean haven't you seen all those old flicks when the hitman, looking like an ordinary guy with a fake passport travels by plane (unarmed), has a nice chat with an old lady on board, arrives, finds the already planted stash and proceeds to assassinate some guy?

Well, I can't see why noncybered (or w/licensed cyber) runners use rating 6 SINs to travel where they want, leaving behind all unlicenced guns. Well, unless someone is specifically looking for those SINs or expecting their route. Once they arrive, get their weapons they should swap SINs though, and discard that one after the job.
kigmatzomat
The best SIN is a real SIN. Doesn't mean it's really yours. I figure a hack job good enough to create a SIN can probably hijack one just as easily. The tricky part is finding a match for those restricted cyber implants. Riggers and hackers have it pretty easy on the whole. Not as bad for magic types; there are plenty of legit, registered casters across the planet. Unless the supplements indicate that tech scanners can ID a technomancer, they are probably the easiest able to get a SIN.
MaxHunter
Some of the players that go about in my games have cared to make characters who could pass through a cyberware scan without major problems.
Others are so filled up in illegal chrome that even crossing the street without a fake SIN could turn into a problem:

Examples: serbian merc/hitman/adept: cybereyes, bioware reflexes and bone density aug (bio not listed in the SIN), masking, license for a pistol. -"and your smartlink?" -"military service."; covers and Fake SINs as a "security consultant", "construction worker" and "language teacher" (!); can speak the part too.

Ork Sammy: cyberspurs! dermal plating! currently doing time in an Ares correctional facility.

And the rest of the characters fall into either one of these two "ways": for the first type a commercial flight would be cool, for the second type it's smuggling all the way. One of my runner groups have a modified Ares Dragon they sometimes use for transport. However, it's operative range is somewhat limited. Last time it was Seattle-Salish Sidhe-Seattle-Tir border.

Cheers,

Max
Kyoto Kid
...well Had a physad who easily could fly commercial (yeah, y'all know she is). No problemo getting through the scanners at the terminal and gate. Actually even assisted in thwarting a hijacking.

Now my matrix specialist on the other hand, she'd light up that scanner arch like a 4th of July grand finale.

"OK, wired reflexes (permit) check, commlink implant (permit) check, cybereyes (permit) check Hot Sim Module" AAAAAAAAA! "...ahh Miss, would you come with me..."
stevebugge
If the travel part is not key to the actual run I have planned, I typically have the Johnson arrange travel, usually via chartered private plane. Of course this takes a bite out of the paycheck. Smugglers are a great option for moving clandestinely. Of course you can also make getting there a run in itself if you have players who want to try their hand at smuggling themselves.
Simon May
There are always new and exciting ways of getting from point a to point b:

1) Take the slow boat to China: As often as travel is difficult, spending some time on a tanker doing long haul security is a cheap and easy way to transport what you want to where you want. Whether it's a smuggling boat or on the up and up, the cargo ship provides you ample space, and perhaps a few nuyen for traveling with them and protecting their haul. If you can afford it, you could even pick up a yacht or moderate sized sailboat for the journey. The only downside is time. You're at least a few days to a week from another continent. Well, time and pirates...

2) Experiment with experimental technology: Sure, there's no long range teleportation spell in the SR world, but that doesn't mean some megacorp isn't trying to create a teleporter. Of course, what are the risks of this new technology? Is it only from one unit to another? What will they charge for the return trip now that you've successfully n(or so you think) proven it works for them? That's all up to the GM, but just because something doesn't exist commercially or on the black market doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all.

3) Utilize the Astral: "What?" you ask. "I thought the Astral realm was only for astrally projected beings, meaning we'd have to leave our bodies behind." Wrong. Well, in theory at least. The discovery of shallows (as mentioned in Runner Havens) means that it might be possible to actually pass into them and travel there. Is it safe? Who knows. I've never seen a physical being move entirely into the astral. Perhaps cyberware will be an issue. Maybe spirits won't like the transgressions. There are plenty of reasons not to try it, but if the job is important, it may be your only hope. Of course, finding a persistent shallow and then finding your way to another may be a run unto itself.

4) Charter a flight: There are times when you just don't have the money to charter a private plane/jet/helicopter, etc. Still, if you can, this is probably your best bet. There are thousands of private corporate jets flying in and out of every major city and port each day. Most of the time, they use private airstrips or small airports with more lax security. They may be cramped, but you do what you have to do.

5) Ride the Dragon: I know most people don't have Dragon friends. Of course, those that down have access to jets to loan you might be convinced to actually fly you themselves, for a price. And we're not talking nuyen here. Maybe your escape will indebt you to this Dragon in more ways than you expect... It could be the start of a strange, dangerous and lucrative partnership. Or it could be your end just for asking.

6) Ship yourself: If the price of travel is simply too high, there's always the option of packing yourself in a cargo container and hoping the shipping company you chose is seedy enough to circumvent security measures. Of course, a few days in a container that may get flipped on its head could be painful, so pack accordingly. And then, there's always the risk that you'll be misdelivered or stolen. You never know...
FrankTrollman
I don't even understand why normal air travel would be hard to get onto. In 2071, if you want to bring down a plane you cast Wreck on it - and you do that from 10km away on the ground. Terrorists have no need to get onto planes in order to bring down aircraft and the airlines respond only to the bottom line.

I would pay more money for a ticket if I didn't have to take my fucking shoes off to do it. The extra time I saved could be spent more profitably and with less humiliation by working a McJob. With no powerful central government making weird pointless security mandates on airlines in order to scare people, major corporations are just going to not do them. These procedures cost the airlines money. They cost the passengers time, which is the same thing.

And logically speaking, there's no reason for them. When Lufthansa makes the news they are just going to play up the fact that flying is still safer per kilometer than driving, tell the people that everything is fine now, and eliminate all that pointless security on passengers.

Sure, sneaking up to an aircraft in hangar is still going to be moderately difficult, but you can bet your sweet ass that passengers don't have to get rid of any fluids over 150 mL. The very idea is retarded. Heck, the Shoe Bomber is now the most successful terrorist in human history because he spent less than a thousand quid on his plan, didn't die, and cost every air passenger in the US and UK some 1/2 hour of their productive life. The total economic consequences are staggering.

And there is no way in hell that Wuxing is going to look at that bottom line and continue these senseless restrictions. If you can pay Wuxing money, they will allow you to fly an airplane, no questions asked. National governments may get their panties in a knott over actually allwing specific people in through customs, but since the transportation itself is handled by profit making corporations who write their own damn rules, you can bet that they won't turn anyone away for anything except inability to pay.

-Frank
Simon May
They'll still likely restrict weaponry to being checked since the cost of losing a plane far outweighs the profit of letting passenger on scot free. I also wouldn't be surprised if they hired mage air marshalls in case of magical attack. Of course, they also wouldn't fuck with anyone unless fucked with, but still, planes are no less expensive in the 2060s and 70s than they are now. It's just bad business to allow hijackings with no deterrence. Sure, they may not check IDs 40 times or have people take off their shoes, but they aren't going to roll over and let people take their million nuyen birds.
noonesshowmonkey
While Nuyen is the great leveler in the 6th world, Frank, I am relatively sure that business in the 2070s will still be a series of agreements between corps / governments. There is bound to be a large, nasty, sticky network of corporate contracts and standards about who can get on flights to ensure that the aircraft can fly over various tracts of airspace. Systems that involve many independent parts naturally fall more towards a middle ground than complete autocracy or totally liberality. If the UCAS does not want Luftansa or Wuxing to be allowing lax security on their aircraft they can put the squeeze on the corps by heavy taxation or simply revoking airspace privileges.

I am not saying that such measures would be commonplace... But just saying that corps can do whatever they want is a little short sighted. They do whatever they want to make sure that profits are up up up and that often means they must "play the game" as it were by making concessions to other governing bodies (corp or otherwise).

I agree, though, future security would be far more streamlined than it is now. Past general gate guards (mind you, these muthas may have security armor and FN-HARs or actioneer armor and HK227s in their coats) and scanners / background checking mechanisms that hammer on SINs like a cheap copper bowl, there is not much use in anything else.

Even with a more streamlined system getting onto and off of aircraft, the process will still be secured. Integration of technology will assist enormously with streamlining. Also, technology is a one time investment with support costs instead of recurring charges of "salary" or "wage". The future loves to cut the human element out and replace it with machines (see: cyberware).

I dunno.

General travel should be a serious problem for finely tuned killing machines, sociopaths with a history of multiple homicides and a list of felonies a mile long. Also, I value the sense of claustrophobia of a dystopian future. Close walls of steel and glass and a thin layer of something between the real world and you - be it your cybereyes making your reality a trid show or a sincere feeling of disconnect when your nervous system speaks to you in 1s and 0s.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
Adarael
Also, I understand your point, Frank, but saying "They can cast a wreck spell on a plane from 10 km away" is kind of like saying "They can fire a missile at it from 10 km away." Sure they can. But if you want to bring a plane down, it's probably easier, cheaper, and faster to get a guy with a deathwish and some explosives onto that plane than to find a mage who is willing to cast a Wreck spell with sufficient dice and force to overcome the distance modifiers, object resistance, and body of the aircraft. Even if the plane doesn't get to roll body to resist, it's gonna have quite a few health levels.

And it still dodges the real problem: getting ON the airplane isn't the part runners have problems with, in my experience. It's getting past customs, because customs in 2070 has this tendancy to be run by xenophobic freaks with short tempers.
FrankTrollman
LOS spells don't have distance modifiers, you just have to have an unobstructed view of the target. And no, planes don't get to roll to resist. They just have an OR of 3 or 4. There are over 60 million magicians, and they look just like everyone else. If they want to commit terrorism against planes, they just do that. Planes stay up in the air because the power of flight is no longer vovelty in the late 21st century and terrorist groups no longer get all wet in the pants over bringing down aircraft over any other target. Trains, office buildings, buses, corporate retreats, and discotechs are all as high a priority or more than airplanes because the man on the street in 2071 is simply completely jaded about the fact that we have machines that can fucking fly even in the Arabian Caliphate.

It's a raw numbers game, and the 500 people you can take out by hitting an airplane just right is simply not that impressive compared to what you can do by other means. A good chemical spill on a busy street will rack up a bigger body count and that's what the terrorist of the 21st century is looking for. Airplane hijacking is simply old hat and noone cares any more.

-Frank
Adarael
Frank, I'm not gonna argue with you about people "not caring if a plane gets blown up" because they're jaded about the novelty of flying things." I don't even understand how you came to the conclusion that aircraft were targets because people were amazed by them. People target aircrafts because it makes news when one explodes. I agree that the investment on blowing up a plane isn't worth the return for most terrorist types in 2070, but I think your reasoning is from mars on this one. What I think matters more to them is that the amount of crackdown that would come from the corporations that run the airlines isn't worth the statement it would make. Suffice to say, you're welcome to run your game how you want, but I don't think making it easy to waltz into an aircraft with all kinds of restricted ware is as likely as you say.

Also, on a purely rules level, LOS Spells suffer ranged combat vision penalties. If your GM isn't applying vision penalties at several kilometers, I have to wonder what your GM thinks about seeing things several KM away with the naked eye. That can be somewhat mitigated by binoculars, but you still have to contend with haze and motion.

Assuming you have a +4 threshhold and WreckNuker the Mage is tossing 12 dice with a magic rating of 6, and he decides he wants to overcast until he explodes:
Force 12 spell. He rolls 12 dice, for an average of 4 hits. Great. The plane still has more health levels than that, and the mage collapses in a heap of overcast.
Big D
I think this is getting a little off-target...

The issue WRT travel restrictions ain't because you might pose a threat to the plane. It's because you might pose a threat to TPTB at your destination. Want to fly to Tir? I can't remember which airlines go there, but the customs/security at one or both ends will be Tir, not to protect the plane, but to secure their borders from any nasty shadowrunners, special ops teams, or little old women who are incorrectly flagged in the database. The airline itself might bother to check for things that endanger its plane, and it might not, relying on the airports, host nations, etc. to do the job for it.

Same thing goes with other modes of transportation. Corps and countries want to know if somebody is trespassing with intent to hurt their bottom line.

As for using "real" SINs... a fake SIN may be exactly that, a real person's SIN altered for your use. Remember that a SIN is not just an identification card, but a key used to look you up instantly in a number of security databases with lots of data sharing among corps and governments. If you're Joe Tourist, then the Azzies should be able to find your personal data with your SIN and verify that everything appears in order. A rating 2 SIN and a bad roll might mean that their check flags the "real" Joe Tourist as having died 6 months ago, or that it couldn't find an entry for Joe Tourist at all, meaning you're a potential corp/gov spy (just a lousy one).
venenum
QUOTE (Big D)
meaning you're a potential corp/gov spy (just a lousy one).

Really meaning you are the sacrificial lamb, in a very literal sense.
Riley37
Frank T., you write as if there's nothing that you possibly might have overlooked, which I find annoying. In case no one told you: back in 2001, some terrorists hijacked some airplanes and used them to do damage to other targets, changed the NYC skyline, turned the Pentagon into a quadragon. Ever since then, the risk-vs-reward calculations on airplane hijackings have involved not only the cost of the plane and its cargo/passengers, but the cost of anything that could be rammed with the plane. A sufficiently strong barrier between the cargo/passenger compartment and the control cabin will remain important, regardless of what form it takes (armor, ward, guard, and/or disarming passengers).

Shoe bombs and bottle bombs are only a threat to passengers - they can't take down the whole plane, can they? So countermeasures vs. those may be relaxed in some venues.

If distance and target size/mass don't matter, can a mage destroy the Moon with a target number of 1? (visible with naked eye, unrefined rock)
HappyDaze
Becasue of the risk to aircraft from magical threats, there would like;ly be two main types of aircraft in use.

1) A few really well-protected (wards, onboard magicians with spell defense/shielding, escorting spirits) flights.
AND
2) The other 99% that just deal wit the fact that protection is beyond them.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Riley37)
Shoe bombs and bottle bombs are only a threat to passengers - they can't take down the whole plane, can they? So countermeasures vs. those may be relaxed in some venues.

...depends on where the bomb is placed. As I recall about a half kilo of Semtex was used to take out Pan Am 103. The effectiveness of the bomb will also vary as to what part of the aircraft it is in, and which part of the flight envelope it is set off in. In the case of PAA 103 The bomb was in the forward cargo bay close to the communications and instrumentation bay. The plane was was also approaching cruising altitude (about 10,000m) when the bomb went off. It wasn't so much the explosion of the device itself, but the resulting explosive decompression from the pressure differential that caused the aircraft to break up.

In a similar type of incident back in the 1970s, a DC10 had a cargo door fail at altitude resulting in explosive decompression which destroyed that aircraft. Given the right (or wrong) conditions it doesn't take a lot to bring an aircraft down.
DTFarstar
Yeah, generate an directed explosion and it won't take much at high altitude to cause explosive decompression which ends in the plane going thud.

Chris
Backgammon
QUOTE (Riley37)
In case no one told you: back in 2001, some terrorists hijacked some airplanes and used them to do damage to other targets, changed the NYC skyline, turned the Pentagon into a quadragon. Ever since then, the risk-vs-reward calculations on airplane hijackings have involved not only the cost of the plane and its cargo/passengers, but the cost of anything that could be rammed with the plane. A sufficiently strong barrier between the cargo/passenger compartment and the control cabin will remain important, regardless of what form it takes (armor, ward, guard, and/or disarming passengers).

9/11 never happened in Shadowrun. That makes a BIG difference. As Shadowrun is the 80s, think back (if you can.. I can't, going on what I saw in movies) at airport security in the 80s. That's shadowrun airport security. Nothing near as secure as today, because there has never been a major act of airplane terrorism on the 9/11 scale. The worst that happened is a Great Dragon ate a plane, and metal detectors weren't gonna prevent that.
kzt
QUOTE (Backgammon)
there has never been a major act of airplane terrorism on the 9/11 scale. The worst that happened is a Great Dragon ate a plane, and metal detectors weren't gonna prevent that.

Really?

You mean other then the insurance company that one day blew up 10 loaded passenger jets in midair that were insured by it's competitors? Killing thousands of people?

And the suborbital that was crashed into the fusion plant? Killing thousands of people and costing billions of dollars?

That's what I can remember off the top of my head. There were others.
DTFarstar
QUOTE (kzt)
You mean other then the insurance company that one day blew up 10 loaded passenger jets in midair that were insured by it's competitors? Killing thousands of people?

And this is why I love Shadowrun. Sometimes it is eerie how much I think like the people who create this game. Well, when they are trying to think like a madman... sadly enough that is just my normal mindset.

Chris
Ustio
This cropped up in the game I ran last week, the team normaly based in Seattle had an extraction & transport job that needed them them to be in LA, the nice Mr Johnson got them and their gear down there but after that it was up to them.

They had three exit stratergies -

* paying a captain to let em use a carfgo container on his next run back to the emerald city, they put a deposit down and negotiated a 15k fee for the container.

* Hired some off road vehicles used fake SINS and visas to drive up through PCC and SS as a hunting party

* levitation, with a spirtit using movement and concealment

In the end they went with number 2, passed through the border check at pcc/ss but got pinged by a patrol halfway through SS, and ended up having to briobe the patrol.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Backgammon)
9/11 never happened in Shadowrun.

...it did in my backhistory. Then again so did the triple bombings in London, Desert Storm, and the (second) Iraq war.
FrankTrollman
The Shadowrun solution to hijacking is arming all of the passengers. It's like their solution to freeway violence. In Shadowrun, people carry around guns all the time. Little old ladies have guns, sometimes they wear them openly, sometimes it's concealed, but everyone is armed. Gun fashion is a part of Shadowrun and always has been.

If you want to hijack a plane from the inside, you have to fight your way through all the passengers. If you want to bring down a plane from outside, well you just do that.

QUOTE
target aircrafts because it makes news when one explodes.


And it makes the news because... airplanes are magical and impressive! It doesn't make the news when a ferry in the Phillipines goes down, even if they lose hundreds of people. It doesn't make the news when heavy traffic claims the lives of hundreds of people a day.

Hell, in the United State in September of 2001, more people were killed by reckless drivers than by terrorists. That doesn't make the news because people no longer think of cars as impressive. In September of 2071, the airplane is old hat. People have actual magic to consider magical. So in September of 2071 people getting killed by Ritual Sorcery makes the news and people dying in a plane crash just doesn't.

So Terrorists don't bother with planes more than any other target. Hell, they don't now, not that the department of Homeland Security will let that on.

Edit: Don't know how I missed this one:

QUOTE
Also, on a purely rules level, LOS Spells suffer ranged combat vision penalties.


No. They don't.

QUOTE (SR4 p. 173)
Visibility modifiers (including darkness, cover, and oher impediments) noted for ranged combat also reduce the magician's Magic + Spellcasting dice pool when casting spells.


Do you see "range" on that list? No. You don't. That's because it's not on that list. What does it actually say about Range?

QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 195, "Range")
If the caster can see the target, regardless of distance, it can be affected.

Emphasis mine. No range penalties for "Line of Sight" spells. Heck, that's what "Line of Sight" means.

-Frank
Adarael
Frank, I said they LOS spells were affected by "ranged combat vision penalties." How is that any different than you saying they're only affected by vision penalties (including darkness, cover, etc) noted for ranged combat? Ranged combat vision penalties are the same thing as "penalties noted for ranged combat."

Because those are the penalties I meant. You know. For things like "Glare", and "Seeing through haze," and "Fuck, it's going in and out of the clouds."

So we're talking about the same modifiers.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The Shadowrun solution to hijacking is arming all of the passengers.

...nah, the flight crew & Sky marshals don their O2 & gas masks and flood the passenger cabin with Neurostun, simple cheap and effective. If someone pops in a respirator the sky marshals take that person(s) down with Ares SuperSquirts loaded with Gamma-S (this way they are softened up for questioning later).

You don't want to risk puncturing a pressurized cabin altitude, especially in an HSCT or Sub Orbital.
Simon May
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The Shadowrun solution to hijacking is arming all of the passengers. It's like their solution to freeway violence. In Shadowrun, people carry around guns all the time. Little old ladies have guns, sometimes they wear them openly, sometimes it's concealed, but everyone is armed. Gun fashion is a part of Shadowrun and always has been.

I'm a little confused here. Though many people do carry guns, everyone seems by far an exaggeration. The vast majority of high priced corps have security simply because they don't want to use guns personally. Those people in the lower rungs of society often can't afford guns, or if they can, are dead before they have a chance to use them. In fact, with such a lawless society, if you're not competent with a weapon and actually willing to use it, it's more likely to get you killed than it is to keep you safe.

I simply can't imagine an airline keeping storehouses of weapons to hand out to unarmed people as they get on a plane. And I can't say I remember seeing simple muggings go wrong because some granny kept a ruger in her purse and popped the perp like a pinata. Guns and violence may be more prevalent, but they aren't everywhere. They're simply all over the shadows.
QUOTE
And it makes the news because... airplanes are magical and impressive! It doesn't make the news when a ferry in the Phillipines goes down, even if they lose hundreds of people. It doesn't make the news when heavy traffic claims the lives of hundreds of people a day.

It doesn't make the news here. The fact is that with so much shit going on in the world, we couldn't have every news story anyway. Journalists make a judgment call and decide which stories are more important, and most of the time, it's the local stories. When the Yakuza in Kyoto starts a vendetta with a local business, does it affect anyone in Seattle when neithe that Yakuza branch nor the business operate there? No. In the same way, a ferry in the Philippines sinking and killing a couple hundred people won't be as important in the UCAS and its subsidiaries as a plane that flew out of Boston being hijacked or shot down.

To say it's because planes are "magical and impressive" is the biggest load of uneducated bull. It's like saying the Chevy Nova didn't sell in South America because "no va" means no go. It's an urban myth, and one that presupposes confuses stupidity with a lack of education. You don't need to know Spanish to tell the difference between Nova and no va. And you don't need to understand the basic physics of flight to think that airplanes are, at best, mundane scientific vehicles.
Kyoto Kid
..albeit, to those not very scientifically, technologically minded they are a marvel.

I mean think of getting 250 tonnes of metal off the ground and watching it move so gracefully without having the knowledge of how a wing works or what the four forces of flight are. Yes, it is kind of magical, and very big planes like the B-52, Antonov 225, 747-400, C-5, & Airbus 380 or odd ones like the F-117 Nighthawk SR71, and B-2 are impressive. That's why they are showstoppers at airshows and other public events where thy do flybys.

While the Concorde was still providing scheduled flights, one once paid a visit to Seattle, and created a hell of a traffic jam from everyone who wanted to come & see it.
Simon May
That's a fair argument, but we're talking 63 years in the future. Already, kids don't really discuss PDAs or video games as marvels, though people used to throw parties to show them off. The primary reaction to new and fancier graphics is "that's cool and an improvement." It's not "wow, I wonder how they do that." The same thing goes for planes. We may stop to stare, but for the most part, people who have seen them are not blown away like they used to be.

In the future, we may get amazed by space flight planes or suborbital jets, but the average plane is pretty normal.
stevebugge
Airport security would still be around. Forget about the corps, it would still be around because it's a Goverment Job and therefore it's someone's constituency group. How good or bad it is is debatable, and how important the job it does is too.
Riley37
Aw, Frank didn't answer my question about destroying the Moon with magic, and whether his interpretation makes it any different than zapping an airplane from the ground.

I'm interpreting Frank's writing style as implying something like "there is One True Way to play Shadowrun, and those with any different set of assumptions or choices are WRONG." Is that accurate?

Hunh. So some GMs have a backstory which diverges from ours in 1980s, without the 9/11 attacks... and any of their consequences? and no one *other* than Al-Queda has tried using a large hijacked vehicle to ram a large target? It only takes one such incident, to raise the stakes.

What about SR4 campaigns in which things invented in RL 2007, have not been invented in SR 2070? I gather that the recent RL surge in wireless technology, was an incentive to make wireless more widely used and available in SR4. Genetics and AI are also technologies in which SR may have to change, to keep up with RL developments, or become increasingly a divergent timeline.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Simon May)
In the future, we may get amazed by space flight planes or suborbital jets, but the average plane is pretty normal.

...unless it's very, very big:

For example, cruise ships are pretty mundane today, but the Queen Mary 2 turns heads when it makes port because of its massive size and classic lines

A little bit of scale here...

Queen Mary 2 & Golden Gate Bridge

...also notice the flotilla surrounding her...yeah I'd say they're impressed to be hanging around in that chop.

I'll try to get scans of two concepts I use in my setings posted to DA & provide links, the Antonov AN335 and Marathon M-12 Superlift.

These are two very large cargo planes with remarkable takeoff & landing profiles due to their ActiveLift™ wing design. Of course like the Russians always do, they see a good concept "borrow" it and call it their own "invention". grinbig.gif
Simon May
Ah, but those will still be the exception to the rule. As much as these huge planes will exist (and even perhaps have cruise-ship like tours of low orbit space), the majority of planes will still be small, cramped, and rather shitty. For every big plane that appears in an airline's fleet, 5 small ones will be sold off at auction to small companies and smuggler fleets. Plus, with the mistrust of the airways, small private jets are probably more numerous and popular than ever.
Fortune
QUOTE (Riley37)
Hunh. So some GMs have a backstory which diverges from ours in 1980s, without the 9/11 attacks... and any of their consequences?

No, the Sixth World, the official setting for Shadowrun, diverged from 'real life' in the middle '80s.
Penta
Yes, but there was a canon reference (in SSG or thereabouts) to 9/11. In an airport security context.

So obviously it didn't diverge entirely.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Penta)
Yes, but there was a canon reference (in SSG or thereabouts) to 9/11. In an airport security context.

So obviously it didn't diverge entirely.

Yeah, and what about the reference to the Department of Homeland Security? That was established in 2002, as a direct result of 9/11 attacks. I'm talking about the reference in Runner Havens at least, although there are probably more.

Sure, 6th world history is different from ours - but I thought it was different in the way that it added to it, not changed what has actually happened in RL. As far as I know, everything up to the late 90s is just like in the RL. The Shiawase stuff and New York food riots obvously never happened in RL, but those do not prevent the possibility of the War on Terror, or the War on Drugs and the ecconomical decline in the states. And even in the previous editions of Shadowrun, terrorism was pretty much rampant and had been a fact, although other groups than just islamists were responsible.

So as long as what happens in RL and the SR backstory doesen't diverge too much, I see no reason not to include it in the game. Just like the old cyberpunk was based on the 80s with Japanaphobia, the strong corporations, terrorism and crime - the new Shadowrun should be at least somewhat based on the fears we have today - islamist terrorism (or others), wireless systems and "the Matrix" inspired styles.

People are free to keep their game as similar to the 80s style they want, but I want some of the new as well, being of the next generation (well adolescent in the 90s at least).
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