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Wanderer
If a (mystic) adept happens to have some bioware and some powers whose effects are similar, do they stack and how ?

Some typical cases:

Killing Hands and Bone Density Augmentation;

Mystic Armor and Orthoskin;

Smart Insulation Orthoskin and Temperature Tolerance;

Electroshock Orthoskin and Elemental Strike (Electricity);

Mimic False Front and Facial Sculpt;

Dynamic Chamaleon Skin and Melanin Control;

Metabolic Arrester and Metabolic Control (on the opposite case, would Metabolic Control be compatible with a Suprathyroid Gland);

Vocal Range Enhancer and Voice Control;

Pain Resistance and Damage Compensators;

Natural Immunity and Pathogenic Defense/Toxin Extractor;

Glyph
I don't have Augmentation, but as a general rule, I would assume most of those combinations would stack. The adept power descriptions for attribute boost and increased reflexes specifically state that they are not compatible with other increases, so I would tend to assume compatibility in other cases.

Some would be mostly redundant, though. Using electroshock orthoskin with elemental strike (electricity) would do little other than increase the duration of the disorientation. The effective part of that combo would be the killing hands, letting the adept do physical and stun damage simultaneously. But if a sammie can do the same thing with a shock hand and bone lacing, why not?
NightRain
QUOTE (Glyph)
The effective part of that combo would be the killing hands, letting the adept do physical and stun damage simultaneously. But if a sammie can do the same thing with a shock hand and bone lacing, why not?

Killing hands don't do stun damage because they're magic, they do stun damage when you simply don't turn on the "killing bit" and are relying on a plain old meaty fist. When the magic is turned off and the meaty fist is filled with titanium, there is no room for stun damage as far as I can see it.

As a balance issue, I would simply never allow an attack to do physical and stun at the same time. If a sammy is punching people with a metal shock hand, I'd be giving the subject physical damage and some disorientation. Think it out. When I punch someone, I stun them and make them groggy (ie, stun damage). When I punch someone with knuckle dusters, I do serious physical damage that takes much longer to heal, but presumably I still stun them and make them groggy. Every physical attack realistically does something that would be counted as stun damage, but the game represents the stun as being included within the more serious physical damage track.
Stahlseele
wasn't there this little bit somewhere, that magic and tech, no matter if cyber, bio, or nanotech NEVER do stack?
NightRain
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
wasn't there this little bit somewhere, that magic and tech, no matter if cyber, bio, or nanotech NEVER do stack?

I hope not, because that would be silly. Increase strength from muscle replacement, and killing hands to do physical damage should stack to give more potent physical punches
Fortune
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 27 2007, 07:55 PM)
wasn't there this little bit somewhere, that magic and tech, no matter if cyber, bio, or nanotech NEVER do stack?

Nope. Unless it is specifically stated as not being compatible, it normally is. Remember the long-standing, original tag line for Shadowrun ...

Where Man meets Magic and Machine
Stahlseele
so strictly speaking by wording of SR4 Core Book Adept improved reflexes are compatible with bioware ini booster?

QUOTE
Improved Reflexes
Cost: Variable, see below
This power increases the speed at which you react, just like
wired reflexes. For each level, you receive +1 die to Reaction
(this also affects Initiative) and 1 extra Initiative Pass. The
maximum rating of Improved Reflexes is 3, and the increase
cannot be combined with technological or other magical increases
to Initiative.

because strictly speaking that bio ini enhancer thingie is not TECHNOLOGICAL . . but BIOLOGICAL . .
NightRain
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
so strictly speaking by wording of SR4 Core Book Adept improved reflexes are compatible with bioware ini booster?

because strictly speaking that bio ini enhancer thingie is not TECHNOLOGICAL . . but BIOLOGICAL . .

Being biological doesn't stop it being technological. Scientific process and development lead to the design and implementation of bioware, so it's technological
Stahlseele
and here i thought biological would be the exact opposite of tecnological . . so there's metal bits in bioware? o.O
and if all else fails there's the precedent of cyber-eyes . . it's been paid for with essence as of SR4, so magic had better work through it too . .
NightRain
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
and here i thought biological would be the exact opposite of tecnological . . so there's metal bits in bioware? o.O

Metal has nothing to do with technological.

To quote some definitions of technological

QUOTE (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=technological)
# based in scientific and industrial progress; "a technological civilization"
# technical: of or relating to a practical subject that is organized according to scientific principles; "technical college"; "technological development"


Bioware is clearly related to industrial and scientific progress, and is a most certainly a subject organised according to scientific principles.

Just because most of our visible technological advancement as a species has involved metals and machines, doesn't mean it's inherent in the definition

QUOTE
and if all else fails there's the precedent of cyber-eyes . . it's been paid for with essence as of SR4, so magic had better work through it too . .


Which would be fine, except for the bit that explicitly states that Improved Reflexes can't be combined with magical or technological initiative boosters. It's not a limitation of magic vs technology, it's a limit inherent in that power. If the words were not written in to the definition of the power, then magic and technology would combine just fine
Narse
Bioware is biotechnology. 'nuff said.

The example of Improved Reflexes not stacking is really a game balance issue. The devs don't want you to be able to take wired 1, improved reflexes 1, and magically enhanced reflexes 1 for the result of wired 3 (or synaptic booster 3).

I think in most cases it would stack, unless a GM rules otherwise, as some combos could potentially affect game balance.
Stahlseele
so if the adept loses one arm and gets a clone replacement, he will not be able to use killing hands with said arm?
NightRain
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
so if the adept loses one arm and gets a clone replacement, he will not be able to use killing hands with said arm?

I'll leave aside the contentious issue of whether or not a cloned arm counts as technological under the game rules for this example, as it's not overly relevant in this instance. There is nothing in the killing hands description that says it's incompatible with technological body replacements etc. Technically, you could get a cyberarm and still use killing hands with it.

The reason the technological definition is relevant, is in the case of Improved Reflexes, which explicitly forbid combined usage with other magical or technological enhancements. Killing hands does not explicitly spell that limitation out.

Stahlseele
so as long as they retain an magic attribute of 1 a cyber-zombie or cyborg could still use killing hands but someone who gets a little more grey matter into his brain can't have faster reflexes?
Fortune
Things that add to Initiative (Initiative only, not Reaction) do not stack, not matter what the source of the bonus. Two different forms of Magical boost don't stack. Two technological boosts don't stack. No two separate things that grant a bonus to Initiative that can be found in the game stack in any way, shape, or form. That makes it clearer.
Shrike30
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
so as long as they retain an magic attribute of 1 a cyber-zombie or cyborg could still use killing hands but someone who gets a little more grey matter into his brain can't have faster reflexes?

I don't have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure both the cyberzombie and cyborg rules mention characters losing all of their magic/resonance when they go through either process.
Fortune
Not quite. Cyberzombies retain a Magic Attribute of 1.
Eryk the Red
QUOTE
so as long as they retain an magic attribute of 1 a cyber-zombie or cyborg could still use killing hands but someone who gets a little more grey matter into his brain can't have faster reflexes?


Not the case at all. He can have faster reflexes. From one or the other source. They just aren't cumulative.

This smells of nitpicking. The point of the rule is to prevent unfairly achieving high power levels cheaply by combining several different weaker sources of enhancement. This is because initiative enhancers like Wired reflexes and Improved reflexes have escalating costs at higher levels. Combining the effect of Improved Reflexes and Synaptic boosters is as unfair as getting three instances of Wired Reflexes 1 installed in your body to get the effect of Wired 3. It'd be cheaper and cost less Essence. But it's an extreme violation of the intention of the rules.
WearzManySkins
Actually is entirely possible to do physical damage and stun damage in the same attack and not be an adept.

Cyber hand Blades/claws/spurs and a Bioware gland with weapon reservoir loaded with narcojet.

Narcojet does 10 Stun when it is injected, target gets a toxin resistance test to try and stage it down.

WMS
NightRain
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
Actually is entirely possible to do physical damage and stun damage in the same attack and not be an adept.

I never said otherwise. I said as a matter of balance, I'd never allow it. I didn't say the rules don't allow it
Narse
So how do you deal with injection arrows and bolts, which are specifically sited under the RAW as having 2 damaging effects? (the rest I can see disallowing under the ruling: "they don't stack") [well at least with toxins the damage isn't applied at the same time, even 'immediate' toxins don't apply till the end of the combat turn]
NightRain
QUOTE (Narse)
[well at least with toxins the damage isn't applied at the same time, even 'immediate' toxins don't apply till the end of the combat turn]

Exactly why I have no problem with it.
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