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Buster
This cyborg was built using standard chargen rules with the only exception that the CCU was allowed to be bought for 50 BP (sort of like a metatype). Even with that big exception, the cyborg still completely sucks as a combatant and can't afford any programs as a hacker. A big problem is that not only did he have to spend 50 BP for essentially lackluster cyberware and 200 BP for 100 BP worth of mental stats, but he also had to burn 20 BP on a chemical facility just for maintainance. At least he doesn't need to pay for Lifestyle, a nice parking spot on someone's roof would work fine.

I expect that with Arsenal, he'll be able to buy a better body to work as a combatant, but with the rules so far, he's terrible. Even though he takes half damage from all physical attacks and all physical damage becomes stun damage, his damage resistance dice pool is laughable and has no chance to improve later. Too bad he can't get a Pain Editor installed without turning him into a cyberzombie. Even with max BP in mental stats, his perception and combat pool sucks because of the drone's low Sensor rating. I made him an Elf (or rather a cloned Elf brain) so I could get some decent Chr for him, doubling the cost of mental stats kept his attributes awfully low. Maybe that 30 BP could be better spent somewhere else, like hacker skills. He does have one advantage, with his skillwires included in his CCU, he can buy a ton of rating 4 skillsofts (they're only availability 8), making him fairly versatile.

As fun as it would be to play a brain in a jar, I'm pretty sure any chargen cybersam could kick his ass out of the sky, and he's nothing compared to a good possession mage.

Later on this week I'm going to try retooling him as a hacker, but I just wanted to post this rigger before I hit the big DELETE button. Did I miss something perhaps or does anyone have any suggestions?


QUOTE (Cyborg)

Build point summary:
30 Elf
50 Clonal Brain CCU
0 Physical Attributes
200 Mental Attributes
40 Special Attributes
58 Active Skills
0 Positive Qualities
-35 Negative Qualities
50 Cyberware + Gear (250,000 ¥)
0 Contacts

= 393 BP Total
= 7 BP to spend on skills or contacts.

Detailed Build:

50 Clonal Brain CCU (+1 Vehicle tests, +2 Sanity checks, no Knowledge skills, only Cracking and Electronics group skills may be higher than rating 5)
Datajack
Commlink (Response 5, Signal 5)
Sim module (hot)
Simsense Booster (4 IP)
Control Rig (+2 Vehicle tests when jumped into drone)
Damage Compensator (rating 6)
Biomonitor
Skillwires (5)
Does not require complex action to pilot body.
Weekly maintenance
Cybertechnology + Logic (20, 30 minutes),
2,000 ¥ (or a Chemical Facility)
Immune to toxins (does not eat, breathe, or have skin)
0.1 Essence, no Magic or Resonance
Mental stats cost double BP at chargen
Monthly Sanity Check ( Will + Int + 2 (1) )
Always hot sim (4 matrix IP; +2 all Matrix tests; Matrix Init = Response + Int + 1)
No Physical Condition but any time the drone takes Physical damage, he is subject to biofeedback stun (half amount (round up) in Stun damage with a Willpower + Biofeedback Filter Test) (p. 239, SR4).
Use the lower of either Sensor or Intuition for Perception
Tests.
Attack: Gunnery + Sensor* = 5 + 3 + 3 = 11
Defense: Response = 5
Dodge: Dodge + Response = 4 + 5 = 9
Damage Resistance: Body + Armor = 4 + 2 = 6
Infiltration: Infiltration + Response = 4 + 5 = 9
Maneuvering: Vehicle skill + Response = 5 + 3 + 5 = 13
Perception: Perception + (Sensor or Intuition, whichever is lower) = 4 + 3 = 7

PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES (0 BP)
Name Score
Bod: (4) Drone’s Body (C-D Dalmation)
Agil: 8 (8) Vehicle skill + Drone’s Handling (C-D Dalmation)
Reac: 5 Commlink Response rating
Str: (4) Drone’s Body (C-D Dalmation)

MENTAL ATTRIBUTES (200 BP)
Name Score  Cost
Cha:  3  0
Int:  5  80
Log:  3  40
Will: 5  80

SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES (40 BP)
Name Score  Cost
Edge: 5 40

Initiative: 11 Intuition + Response + 1
IP: 4

Ess: 0.1

ACTIVE SKILLS (5 BP)
Skill  Rating Cost
Gunnery  5 (8)  20
Pilot (Aircraft) 5 (8)  20
Hacking (some spec) 4 (6)  18

POSITIVE QUALITIES (BP)
(none)

NEGATIVE QUALITIES (-35 BP)
(all kinds of mental problems)


CYBERWEAR + GEAR (250,000 nuyen, 50 BP)

2000 Commlink upgrade (Response 4 to 5)
500 Commlink upgrade (Signal 4 to 5)

DRONES
2200 C-D Dalmatian (Large)
Handling  Accel Speed Pilot Body Armor Sensor
0  15/40 120 3 4 2 3 
2000 Ingram White Knight LMG
= 4,200

CYBERWARE (Cost = 135,000 ¥)

Skillsofts:
12000 ActiveSoft: First Aid 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Dodge 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Cybertechnology 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Aeronautics Mechanics 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Perception 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Infiltration 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Electronic Warfare 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Computer 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Hardware 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Cybercombat 4
12000 ActiveSoft: Software 4
= 120,000

Knowsofts
5000 Knowsoft: Chemical Fabrication 5
5000 Knowsoft: “Normal life? 5
5000 Knowsoft: Matrix hangouts 5
= 15,000

GEAR (Cost = 115,000 ¥)
600  First Aid Kit (rating 6)
500  Aeronautical Mechanic kit
4000  Fake Sin (rating 4)
400  Fake License (drone) (rating 4)
100000 Chemical Facility

Ryu
For starters, I´d take a flight capable drone as main body.

Nice spot on the elf regarding charisma costs. Considering what you are you might go with CHA 1 as well and save 30 points. Use those to buy cracking group 4 instead of just hacking. Now crucial self defense skills are always-on and do not need to be loaded before use. In combat you are likely to load perception and dodge, any sec. hacker forces you to face "interesting" choices.
Buster
QUOTE (Ryu)
For starters, I´d take a flight capable drone as main body.

Nice spot on the elf regarding charisma costs. Considering what you are you might go with CHA 1 as well and save 30 points. Use those to buy cracking group 4 instead of just hacking. Now crucial self defense skills are always-on and do not need to be loaded before use. In combat you are likely to load perception and dodge, any sec. hacker forces you to face "interesting" choices.

Good points. I thought the Dalmation was flight capable, it's vector thrust, is it hover only?
Ryu
My mistake. Somehow I thought "Doberman" instead of "Dalmation".

It is not hover-capable, alltough it can do VTOL if absolutely necessary. I´d probably take a rotor drone for combat and a mini-blimp for surveilance.
Kyoto Kid
...haven't read through all the rules in Augmentation yet. So you are telling me this "guy?" is actually a conscious drone? Like "Kit" from Nightrider? or "Bomb #20" from DarkStar?

After my RiS campaign concludes I am going to have to read up on this a bit.
Stahlseele
actually this "guy" is a brain in a jar with an implanted VCR Comlink that is constantly rigging it's own body-drone . . and because in SR4 everything is like uPnP the brain can be switched between anything with the right port . .
Malicant
He's more like RoboCop. A human brain in a drone body.
Kyoto Kid
..ahh more like the brain ships from Anne McCaffrey's The Ship who Sang. Now this is very intriguing. Got a couple weeks before the next RiS session, maybe I'll have to sit down with the PDF tonight for a bit of reading.
    Aurora Air
...the Smart way to fly...
Stahlseele
something i will probably try is building johnny 5 as a player character . . *g*
Jaid
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
..ahh more like the brain ships from Anne McCaffrey's The Ship who Sang. Now this is very intriguing. Got a couple weeks before the next RiS session, maybe I'll have to sit down with the PDF tonight for a bit of reading.
    Aurora Air
...the Smart way to fly...

well, more like a brain ship if it sucked. a lot.

i've actually got another thread where i made this kind of observation about just how crappy the CCU is (essentially, you pay a whole heck of a lot just for the privilege of being able to ride inside smaller vehicles).

honestly, any balance concerns about cyborgs being overpowered are laughable. cyborgs are terrible. you should be far more afraid of a regular hacker/rigger than you should be of a cyborg. particularly if that hacker/rigger happens to be small enough to ride inside drones...
Kyoto Kid
...I was looking at them on more the NPC basis, and not necessarily as combatants either. The idea of the autonomous airliner (hence the "Aurora Air" tagline) that didn't need a meat crew in a flight deck but still had a "living" presence controlling it is what interests me. This kind of was inspired by discussion in the SINless Travel in 2070 thread, Basically the aircraft would have direct control of all it's own systems. The fight controls would be completely isolated as there would be no need for a conventional flight deck. It could still have various countermeasures (security drones, Neurostun emitters, etc. discussed in that thread) under the "pilot brain's" control for thwarting a hijack attempt.

...just a thought.
DTFarstar
Having a brain-in-a-jar directly plugged in from somewhere on board would allow you to extend to passenger cabin forward a bit as you would no long need the flight deck area at all.

Chris
Jaid
just on a side note, the cyborg does actually get +4 to pretty much all meatworld actions. +2 from hotsim (rigging is a matrix action) and +2 from control rig (it is also a vehicle action)

which brings dodge up to a very respectable 9 passive, and just makes a lot of his dicepools a lot more attractive in general.

the problem is not whether it's competitive with a sammy (i still agree that it is not, btw) but rather whether it is competitive with a rigger.
hobgoblin
hmm, rather then using a computer to balance a flying wing, one could use the brains built in sense of balance?

hell, forget about flight attendants, go drone carts wink.gif

hmm, a formation of cyborg t-birds...

hell, i just recalled a old comic about a race, where one of the competitors was a guy encased in a tiger shark like car. not fully "brain in a jar", but close enough to get chills.

i dont know, i dont think cyborgs are up there with sammies. thats what you have cyberzombies for. but its still something that could trip up a team. i would love to see the face of a rigger or hacker thinking its a remote drone, and tries to hack its control signal, only to find that there is none wink.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
i dont know, i dont think cyborgs are up there with sammies. thats what you have cyberzombies for. but its still something that could trip up a team. i would love to see the face of a rigger or hacker thinking its a remote drone, and tries to hack its control signal, only to find that there is none wink.gif

the same effect could be achieved using a drone with no wireless running, operating purely on a set of orders given to it before being launched. i'm not all that impressed, really.
Shrike30
The same effect minus any ability to think on the fly, sure.

We're gonna have to wait for Arsenal and Unwired both, before we really see the full potential of a Jarhead, but most starting Sammies aren't capable of running with 4 initiative passes and deciding that a dive-bombing run is a viable approach to the target they've just encountered. And just wait till you start seeing anthroform drones wearing mil-spec body armor.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Oct 28 2007, 07:52 PM)
i dont know, i dont think cyborgs are up there with sammies. thats what you have cyberzombies for. but its still something that could trip up a team. i would love to see the face of a rigger or hacker thinking its a remote drone, and tries to hack its control signal, only to find that there is none wink.gif

the same effect could be achieved using a drone with no wireless running, operating purely on a set of orders given to it before being launched. i'm not all that impressed, really.

And what happens when those orders on longer fit the real world? The best laid plans last maybe 2 mins. wink.gif
Orient
Um. Now I'm thinking about Krang as a Shadowrun character...
Ryu
The tech is currently at an early beta stage. And, like the MBW we had before (SR3) only really useful for NPCs. Right now too dangerous to the brain, too expensive and too high maintenance. That will change (hopefully before SR5, with arsenal).

- Corporations will use it the way KK said: control of commercial vessels. The brain can rest for most parts of the journey, and the autopilot is instructed when to awaken its pilot. Great for long hauls, regardless of transportation methods.

- Military use? Manned aircraft that are NOT susceptible to high-G forces. Tank crews that don´t leave the vehicle and don´t die because home-made explosives made their tank jump.
Mercer
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
hell, i just recalled a old comic about a race, where one of the competitors was a guy encased in a tiger shark like car. not fully "brain in a jar", but close enough to get chills.

I had that comic. "I am the Mecha-Khan. I am the Rolling Tiger." I picked up that one issue because I was playing a lot of an old, old computer game called Deathtrack (which this being '90, was hot shit). Was it a Car Wars comic or was that just a natural assumption? I remember it was a road race across a post-apocolyptic midwest America, and there were lots of biker gangs and other weirdos trying to stop it.

Robocop wasn't a brain in a jar, was he? Caine from Robocop II was, but Murphy still had some stuff in that body-- he ate baby food, for one thing, and they were talking about saving his arm even though they decided to get rid of it. I always thought the original Robocop was a lot more like the SR3 FBR's, two cyberarms, two cyberlegs, cybertorso and cyberskull; but inside the torso he still had most his basic organs.
Buster
I found a cool picture of a brain-in-a-jar that looks like it could be the cover art of the next Shadowrun adventure:

A brain-in-a-jar having a nice night out at the local Johnny Rockets with his human and dwarf teammates just before being attacked by a horde of Horrors
Tarantula
Or, you could put it in a decent vehicle, such as a mobmaster, a tbird, or a big helicopter. Throw some missiles in with it, and some other weaponry, and you've got something to be scared of. Sure, he doesn't go in buildings, but thats not his job, his job is to take out whatever needs taken out.
GryMor
With a bit more miniaturization of the support equipment, we could be seeing GitS level prosthetic bodies soonish. Wonder if that would help with the insanity problems?
Ryu
The insanity seems to come from brain miniaturisation. As in loosing greater parts of the brain during the process.
Simon May
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
hmm, rather then using a computer to balance a flying wing, one could use the brains built in sense of balance?

Your sense of balance doesn't actually come from the brain, but from the inner ear, and since cyber ears are already prevalent, there's nothing to say they couldn't hook up the proper equipment to the brain to mimic this.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Simon May)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Oct 28 2007, 07:52 PM)
hmm, rather then using a computer to balance a flying wing, one could use the brains built in sense of balance?

Your sense of balance doesn't actually come from the brain, but from the inner ear, and since cyber ears are already prevalent, there's nothing to say they couldn't hook up the proper equipment to the brain to mimic this.

true that, but its still the brain that interprets those signals and make the required adjustments.

still, given that todays computers can do a very nice job of it (B-2) i dont think it would really be cost effective...
hobgoblin
QUOTE (GryMor)
With a bit more miniaturization of the support equipment, we could be seeing GitS level prosthetic bodies soonish. Wonder if that would help with the insanity problems?

arsenal and anthroform drones should do the trick wink.gif

but one can argue that a maxed out cyberlimbs replacement may have the same effect.

i guess its really a question of what one wants, vehicle grade toys or cyberware grade toys to plug into that body one have.
Jaid
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Or, you could put it in a decent vehicle, such as a mobmaster, a tbird, or a big helicopter. Throw some missiles in with it, and some other weaponry, and you've got something to be scared of. Sure, he doesn't go in buildings, but thats not his job, his job is to take out whatever needs taken out.

you could also put a regular rigger into one of those. putting a cyborg into one is just throwing away money.

if you're not gonna put them into a small body, it's not worth it to use a cyborg over a rigger.
hobgoblin
and putting a rigger in them is throwing away cargo space wink.gif
GryMor
QUOTE (Ryu)
The insanity seems to come from brain miniaturisation. As in loosing greater parts of the brain during the process.

I was more meaning miniaturization of the interface/support hardware, so you AREN'T losing any of your brain in the process, just having a bunch of nanowires interlaced into it and a support case applied around it that provides external interfaces for the optic nerve clusters and the spinal cord.

Combined with your first/primary drone body being an accurate simulation of a normal human body, all thats left to worry about are the mystical impacts of actual essence loss.

Hmm, do brain transplants (into a self clone), incur near total essence loss?
hobgoblin
as SR4 is back at the mystical side for explaining essence loss, yes...
PlatonicPimp
Y'all have got it wrong. Putting your jarhead into a Biodorm is where it's at.
Ryu
A jarhead will be much more dedicated to being the best at his job than any rigger. The main advantage of jarhead PCs is the forced concentration on a very reduced skillset. IF one considers that an advantage, min/maxing is forced here (subject to change with anthroform drones of high quality).
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Y'all have got it wrong. Putting your jarhead into a Biodorm is where it's at.

I'm just going to assume "Biodorm" was supposed to be "Biodrone" and say that's a really friggin' cool idea.
wink.gif
hobgoblin
heh, i liked the transhuman space idea.

pop a "comlink + skillwires/MBW" into the biodrone and let a AI or braincopy control said "comlink".
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Oct 30 2007, 10:04 AM)
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Oct 29 2007, 09:00 PM)
Y'all have got it wrong. Putting your jarhead into a Biodorm is where it's at.

I'm just going to assume "Biodorm" was supposed to be "Biodrone" and say that's a really friggin' cool idea.
wink.gif

...yeah but at the Biodorm, the weekend parties are rockin' smokin.gif
PlatonicPimp
And when you catch syphilis, you can just trade out bodies!

Yes, I meant biodrones. And I like to think, that even though the flavor text says they don't have it working with humans YET, they are lying. So you can have your jarhead rig an appropriately diodroned cyberzombie. Hell, even if they don't have it perfect, rig yourself a goddamn cyberbear. Cyberzombie bear. Jarhead cyborg cyberzombie polar bear with fricken Lasers on it's head.
Mercer
If it helps (and I can't imagine it would) I thought you meant "biodome". Which admittedly, I did think would be kind of cool.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
And when you catch syphilis, you can just trade out bodies!

Yes, I meant biodrones. And I like to think, that even though the flavor text says they don't have it working with humans YET, they are lying. So you can have your jarhead rig an appropriately diodroned cyberzombie. Hell, even if they don't have it perfect, rig yourself a goddamn cyberbear. Cyberzombie bear. Jarhead cyborg cyberzombie polar bear with fricken Lasers on it's head.

dont forget that you can do crossbreeds with biodrones wink.gif

so make that a polar bear/shark crossbreed silly.gif
Shrike30
QUOTE (Jaid)
you could also put a regular rigger into one of those. putting a cyborg into one is just throwing away money.

if you're not gonna put them into a small body, it's not worth it to use a cyborg over a rigger.

Brains in jars don't black out when they pull a 15-gee turn.
Jaid
QUOTE (Shrike30)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 29 2007, 02:41 PM)
you could also put a regular rigger into one of those. putting a cyborg into one is just throwing away money.

if you're not gonna put them into a small body, it's not worth it to use a cyborg over a rigger.

Brains in jars don't black out when they pull a 15-gee turn.

i'm sure there's some form of cyber that can correct that problem. assuming it isn't ridiculously expensive, it's probably a lot cheaper in both essence and nuyen, and *still* leaves you with someone who can step outside of the vehicle and walk through a MAD scanner etc without setting off any alarms.

not saying that are 0 uses for it... just saying it's really not all that amazing, in the end.
Tarantula
Probably the blood circuit control system would do that. Just narrow down so the blood doesn't rush outta his head, and he'd stay awake.
hobgoblin
or into, there is a effect known as redout when to much blood hit the brain.
MikeTrevin
Hmn. Polar bears -are- the most vicious killers in the animal kingdom.

... much like their enemy, the hideous shark.

IGNORE THAT! Moving along.

I don't think cyborgs have reached PC status at all... yet. As ( several ) people have pointed out, we need the Arsenal book and its vehicles to really make them viable.

However, as NPCs, they could be duly terrifying. While I haven't done so yet, why limit yourself to BP? Cyborgs, like cyberzombies, in my opinion should not be things made to any sort of player template. You figure out what ungodly horror of a challenge the team needs this week, kit it out, deploy it. While a cyborg doesn't get that nice immunity to normal weapons, the larger drones, or as someone mentioned biodromes ( not sure I want to go that route ) get a reasonable body stat and a fair amount of armor.

Or you could just use them as super drones, which is probably what I will use them for for the time being. Kit out a security system that uses the things. Don't need rigger input! Just a small amount of supervision, and a patrol area. Then proceed to let them do things a normal drone wouldn't. Chase characters down. Call shots. Suppress an area while other drones sneak up behind them. Operate in pure radio silence. Move very, very quietly. Follow the characters, while not -looking- like they're following the characters ( "You killed the cameras in this area and shut off the network, right?" "Yeah." "Okay, this tank drone -must- just be on patrol..." ).

Also, this may just be a stepping stone. Technology in its infancy. Cyberzombies have gotten scarier in SR4; cyborgs may get scarier along the way as well. And like someone else mentioned, this may be the first step to GitS-style prosthetic bodies. Which would be cool.

Unrelated: The Arsenal book is being billed as 'weapons, vehicles, chemtech, and other gear'. This seems to be a combination of the old Cannon Companion and Rigger 3. Considering the Cannon Companion was small, this doesn't seem out of the question... until you realize that the Rigger 3 was -huge- and really did require its own book. Also, there were -other- books that had vehicles in them as well during the SR3 cycle. Heck, it wasn't until SOTA2063 that we got our first tanks.

Not that I've ever used Shadowrun for a military mercenary campaign *cough*.

More to the point, though, will Arsenal actually have rules for making weapons and vehicles, or will it just have expanded rules and expanded lists of such? Does anyone know? And if it does have rules for making vehicles, let's hope it's a bit more accessible than Rigger 3 was. I think I'd reach enlightenment if I ever understood that book.
Jaid
iirc, they have said there won't be rules for designing vehicles (or guns) from scratch, but that they do intend to provide a variety of basic vehicles, and a system for modifying them.
Buster
Until Arsenal shows up and solves all our problems, I can't for the life of me see why the heck anyone, especially a profit-minded corporation, would spend 250,000 nuyen to put a CCU in a drone when they'd be a lot better off just buying 50 more 5000 nuyen drones for the same price as one CCU.
Whipstitch
Especially if they're say, the big S-K or Ares Macrotech; spitting out gigantic, heavy machinery is kinda their thing. cyber.gif
Feshy
QUOTE
If it helps (and I can't imagine it would) I thought you meant "biodome". Which admittedly, I did think would be kind of cool.


Who'd want to rig Pauly Shore? That's just silly.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Buster)
Until Arsenal shows up and solves all our problems, I can't for the life of me see why the heck anyone, especially a profit-minded corporation, would spend 250,000 nuyen to put a CCU in a drone when they'd be a lot better off just buying 50 more 5000 nuyen drones for the same price as one CCU.

Especially if putting the rigger in a CCU suddently makes him suck when controlling drones...
Synner
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Dec 10 2007, 01:42 PM)
Especially if putting the rigger in a CCU suddently makes him suck when controlling drones...

Care to expand on that comment?
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