Look, if you want to make an argument of self which includes flesh-form ants as "you," go ahead. In fact, from a strictly materialistic point of view I would agree with you. As the world is presently constituted, I do not believe in an immortal soul or in a "self" which transcends the boundaries of memory and continuity of existence.

From the standpoint of the real world in 2007 I would be entirely willing to upload my consciouness into a robot, merge my body with a spirit, become a vampire, or do any of a number of other dangerous sounding things in order to attain immortality for my memories and experience.

But in Shadowrun there is something which is "you" which transcends your experiential existence. It's Essence, and you can measure it. It has never been made explicitly clear what exactly happens to you when you die - but it has been made clear that the removal of all your Essence involves "you" being dead. In the world of Shadowrun I wouldn't let an ant spirit merge with my body, I wouldn't upload my mind into a robot, and I wouldn't willingly become a banshee.

But if we're hand waving away the mere loss of the in-game defined self as a triviality, then I'm joining a Termite Hive, and I mean right now. I keep all my memories and skills, my physical prowess goes through the roof, I am filled with a list of tremendous magical powers, I never age, and I don't even have to talk to other metahumans - let alone fight and eat them. All that happens is my Essence is exterminated like a candle flame in a storm and I suffer through some vague hand waving about how "I'm" no longer there, and the guy who looks exactly like me and has all my memories and skills is a "new creature". But apparently that's OK so I'll just let it slide.

-Frank

Meh. Most Vamps are awakened, and Alleviate Allergy pretty much makes mockery of a their aversion to sunlight.

Most vamps aren't awakened, but because of the awakened higher essence levels the awakened tned to be targeted more.

It should also be noted that their Sunlight allergy is Moderate—they don't take damage from the stuff, it just gives them penalties (and a bonus to Power against them if someone manages to make a weapon out of sunlight).

~J

enough spells with the light elemental effect . . laser, nova . . nasty sun-burn all around . . best thing EVAR against most of those HMHVV thingies . . or if you were hardcore you could make up your own spell with those elemental effects and wood/silver shrapnell in it . . not good against most anything else, but close to every HMHVV Sucker getting suckered with this Sucker sucks the big one *g*

I chose vampire. My heritage is Transylvanian.

doesn't that make you more likely to be a dinner than a diner?

~hmmm~

I can't retroactively be born as elf or dwarf => That makes Banshee and (missing) Goblin impossible.

I highly doubt that I'd survive a goblinization (in 2021 or later) => Wendigo for orcish or (also missing) Dzoo-No-Quo or Fomorian for trollish infections are off the list as well.

That leaves just "human" infections ... Ghoul, Vampire, (missing) Loup Garou, (missing) Nosferatu and some exotic (missing) variant (in regions that I don't live in and unlikely to live in by that time).
Of these I'd prefer Nosferatu or - since it's missing in the list, I voted the next "best" - Vampire, simply because of the fact that I'd most likely end up a animal-minded being in case of a Krieger-Infection (my charisma isn't that good and I tend to "botch" whenver "important" things like the secondary infection are concerned and Strain-II would automatically create a more or less "brain dead" being.

Then again ... When having a "choice" I'd just go with "living unharmed in my secure corporate enclave", since I'm actually sort of a "Cypher"-personality

I thought goblins did not have infection so had to pass it on some other way OR potentially it was created. Or i guess maybe a dwarf bitten by a ghoul-but can't pass it on himself

Ghouls do, however, have Pestilence (Krieger Strain), which has no prerequisite based on Essence Drain.

~J

and only the critter, not the playable type . .

I think it's a case that they could infect with pestilence in "Critters" before the idea of player characters came up. Originally they were supposed to be a type of meta, people just goblinized according to the early stuff. Then it came out they were not poorly afflicted soly by the DNA but a disease they could pass on-hense the pestilence power. When the idea comes out of being characters, we get the current rules for infection.

Now what I have to wonder is I am infected with the Ghoul virus, and I'm a carrier so I won't become a Ghoul. Does that mean I'm also immune to becoming a vampire?

I'd guess you are not safe from vampires. You still have essence. Vampires can drain each other in SR so you're still on the menu.

In Critters, at least, there are some very significant-looking quotation marks around any implication of actual death.

Edit: likewise, Paranormal Animals of North America says "apparently die". I think Frank is definitely going to need some major quotes here to back him up. Do keep in mind that the link between zero Essence and death got broken at least as early as Cybertechnology.

~J

0 essence doesn't mean your are dead... below 0 essence means that you are dead.

There where many sammies that have 0 essence. at least in the groups that I played in.

That's not true in any of the quotes (which are direct quotes) above except PAoE. I suspect that very few books would back that idea up, and that therefore there's a reasonable argument to be made that they are in error.

~J

Blah ... a rule change from 2nd edition. In 3rd you can't have 0.... in second you could. Thanks again Mulvihill/Boyle.

sr2 page 246 said you could have 0, just meant you walked the fine edge of sanity.

My mistake. I just can't seem to read though the rulebook in 3rd.

Ah, is that so? I'll have to reread 2e sometime.

~J

effectively, juggling the numbers and grades in 3rd you could go to 0,001 or at least 0,01 Essence . . and rounded in the correct way it would be 0 essence . . but that's just semantics *g*

effectively, juggling the numbers and grades in 3rd you could go to 0,001 or at least 0,01 Essence . . and rounded in the correct way it would be 0 essence . . but that's just semantics *g*

In first and second edition, they used the term "below zero" and "zero or below" interchangeably and different groups interpretted it differently.

-Frank

*shrugs* why ever not?
if i could get my grubby paws on it, i would buy it despite me hating SR4 because i am a big fan of cyber/bio and toys in general *g* buddy was nice enough to lend me his PDF version and hasn't asked it back yet O.o

Well here is a question then, if you are dead at zero essence, then when you die does your essence hit zero? I mean obviously you can flatlined, and clinically dead, and then be brought back. Would your essence drop to zero, and then pop back to six? I guess that makes the old mage essence drain rules for injury make more sense. Also I've always considered essence to not be your soul, but you bodies ability to hold on to your soul. Hence a cyberzombie shouldn't be able to hold on to your soul, but is essentially trapping you. Also the vampire can't leave the essence drained vamp to be for say a day come back, and bring them back right?

Maybe it is that you would normally go into overflow and eventually die when your body reaches 0 Essence, but just like the Magic that is incorporated in Cybermancy, the HMHVV virus in your blood prevents your body from taking that last step into the grave.

I would guess that essence is your soul, or at least tied to it. So when the body takes too much damage to go on, the ghost leaves and takes the essence of you with it. They revive you they bring you back to life and your ghost/soul whatever that was about to step into the light comes back and brings with it the essence.

Essence just is. Like a lot of things in SR, there are many different interpretations, none more valid than the other. And to me, that's one of the real strengths of the system and as weird as it sounds, the strength of the fluff.

Also there is a question then; are you completely dead or only mostly dead?

As near as I can tell, if you get back up, you weren't really dead. Being clinically dead doesn't mean your kids inherit anything, nor does it invalidate your marriage ("til death do you part"), or anything like that. I think for legal purposes (not medical or spiritual or actual), HMHVVer's are in a similar boat. Their Essence is reduced to zero and they're clinically dead for a few seconds-- the system has never specified, but implies a combat round or two-- but when they get back up they still have to make their boat payments.

I would imagine that in those few moments of Essence transfer, people will have similar sensations to the near-death experiences we occasionally hear about. Some people might see a bright light, some might see themselves floating above their body, others might see and feel nothing.

My understanding of SR vamps is that they are alive, although because of the way the disease works its an easy thing to mistake, and that's why the vampires of legend were considered undead. The disease changes how their body works, but the body still works. (Vampires in my game tend to have slow autonomic systems while the somatic and central nervous systems tend to relatively unaffected. They have lower core body temperatures. This is true except for a short window of time after they feed, during which they can come pretty close to normal human vitals. None of this is really vital, just fluff considerations.)

And they have an illness which can kill them, unfortunately the only treatment means you harm others.