Well, it shouldn't.

I thought firecrackers were used to scare away the bad spirits every new years. At least that's what I do with them.

And then mechanism by which they are supposed to drive away spirits is…

~J

...According to Chinese legend...

...the universe was believed to have good forces of energy (shen or "benevolent spirits") and bad forces of energy (kuei or "malevolent spirits"). Creating a din, especially by using firecrackers was believed to dispel the malignant spirits.

The bit I was looking for was the first clause of your last sentence.

~J

Guys, it's FutureTech!

If we can accept Great Dragons, cybernetics, missions to mars and orbital weapons being deployed to kill one man, is it so hard to buy that they've engineered an explosive with the ridiculous energy density by mass to fire an explosive bullet from a pistol or rifle?

Guys, it's FutureTech!

If we can accept Great Dragons, cybernetics, missions to mars and orbital weapons being deployed to kill one man, is it so hard to buy that they've engineered a bullet that does extra damage and pierces armor better, without popping like a firecracker for no good reason?

Except that they're described as being frangible, making "EX EX" just as silly a name as "APDS" for what the bullet actually does.

Why are people so into bringing realism to Shadowrun firearms just to make a suppressed weapon make sound (from teh bullet-bombs, zomg!), but so quick to shrill and wail and complain when the firearm realism crowd wants guns to actually work right? Does your desparate circumstances story matter that much to you, despite already being debunked as a crappy story due to illegal gear combinations being at the core of it?

We get it. You think the guy was being stupid, and you think bullets explode. Okay.

Are there explicit rules for the modifier to sound-based perception checks for, say, a laser firing? A high-capacity capacitor discharging all of it's juice in one go? A car crashing into a building? A dikoted katana-form Ally Spirit being used to cleave a motorbike in two? A troll using a sledgehammer to smash through a wall? A roadway construction crew with pnumatic hammers and heavy equipment? The constant whistling sound of steam from a pipe? The sound made when a troll uses a urinal as a melee weapon to smash it over someone's head? The sound of the john flushing?

I coulden't find any, but I think we can all agree that those all would make a significant and distinct sound. Specifically, in order, they would make the following sounds:
Freeeeeeeem!
Ka-BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZAPT!
Ke-raaaaash!
Schling! *clatter clatter*
SMASH!
Various construction site sounds.
Hissssssssssssssssss!
Porcelean smashing loudly and crinkling to the ground.
Ka-flush.


So, given that, and given the obvious incongruity of a frangible round being better able to pierce armor than regular, the only obvious conclusion is that Ex-Explosive ammuntion is actually explosive, and powerfully so.

I'm taking it as a given that we can all define an explosion as a great amount of pressure generated as a small amount of solid (or liquid) turns into a lot of hot gas in a very short time, and then proceeds to expediently and energetically expand to fill the volume of the container it is in, thus bursting that contain (the bullet) and dealing some fairly significant damage from overpressure alone to the surrounding objects.

Given that, it is also a given that, barring magical or technological interferance, the sound made is "BANG", as the overpressure waves slam into the metahuman eardrum, registering as a loud sound.

Two things, one how is APDS a stupid name for what it does? It is armor piercing ammunition by virtue of it's discarding sabot structure. Now, granted the discarding part is kind of redundant, but that's the military for you. I mean, you get a much greater grain load to great alot more force and fire a small aerodynamic projectile much faster than if you had in fact used a bullet with a grain capacity the size of the small projectile. F = MA so since you increase A a lot to make up for lost mass, the bullet strikes with the same Force focused into a much smaller target area and shazam it penetrates armor in a much more efficient fashion.

Second thing, the Javelin missile system we have today has an armor piercing design(so do alot of other missiles) that basically explodes when it hits the target to blast off the top layer or so of armor, allowing a secondary cartridge to penetrate further into the target and then explode as well. With the nanotech and all that jazz, I see no reason you couldn't transport that same idea into a much much smaller form. Bullet impacts, small high grade explosive charge on the outer casing goes off destroying some of the outer layer of armor, bullet penetrates and explodes itself once inside, increasing damage. Thus, Ex-Explosive.

Not a gun fanatic so feel free to offer real world proof of why these wouldn't work. I'll feel free to ignore you, well, unless you actually make a really good point then I might change my mind. It has happened before.

Chris

Oh, well, shit. You typed up some sound effects. I'm out of my league. The guy was a doof, bullets explode just like minigrenades, and your story was awesome. You win.

Sorry Imperialis

twas good while it lasted...

I've only played 4th.

Something else does say different. In particular, two something elses (Fields of Fire and the SR3 core book) say two differents (round explodes and round just fragments, respectively).

~J

Is it possible that the first Ex in Ex-Ex is in fact Experimental? IE: Not stable in batches large enough to prove useful as a blasting agent for purposes such as demolitions, but useful for squeezing a few droplets inside a bullet?

but mom, I wanted to know what have the runners survived!!!!

-I second whoever said ammo discussion belong into another thread-

Cheers.

Max

Derail a thread with firearms? Why it must be dumpshock!

Thirded on return to thread subject.

Congratulations, you've derailed the thread with votes to return from derailment. Maybe if you, you know, actually posted on the original topic it might work better?

~J

Working on it. Though technically your continuing the derailment.

I had my team of runners wander into a ambush which I did not give them an escape route from.
They where sent on a dummy run into a renraku subsidiary, the plans from the Johnson showed a fake sensor gap they could exploit.
To use this they had to traverse from the outer fence, cross fifteen meters to production facility roof then across ten meter gap to the office building roof.
The four runners faced a six man team of Red samurai including a mage, all equivalent on karma to the runners. In addition they had fifteen on site sec guards.
The plan was to wait till the runner tried to get to the office building and then hit them with a two samurai fire platforms and the secguards covering the ground escape. The mage had summoned a force ten elemental especially for the group as he had faced them before. At best the runners would be trapped on the production facility roof facing grenades from the Red samurai.

All goes well for the Red samurai till the street sam spots a hidden camera in the sensor gap. He alerts his team. To late however the runners are now on the production buildings roof.
Enemy elementals appear, full recoil comp hvar opens up, two red samurai snipe from other rooftops.
All the exits are closed.
The runner mage elementals are falling to the enemy spirits.
The runners cower behind the one foot high wall on the roof.
All looks bleak.

Then the street sam risks death to cut open a hole in the roof with his dikoted katana. Dodgy a hail of bullets he hacks open an escape route. The runners levitate or rappel out of being pinned just as the first grenades start falling.
They now have out manoeuvered the red Sammies.
Inside the production facility, they take on the sec guards. The street sam gets turned invisible and goes on a killing spree to create an escape route. The mage takes on the bound spirits inside the building. The others provide covering fire.
Blood bath ensues.
Then the four of the red samurai breach the exits to block escape. The red sam mage levitates to the hole in the roof to lightning bolt the runners.
The mage gets hit by a arrow from the physad, the runners take out the red samurai in the building but are still trapped inside by the hvar, mage and force ten elemental.
Breathing space. Everyone is hurt bad.
The runners mage goes toe to toe with the elemental and wins. The decker runs for the gate under fire, a distraction for the physad and the street sam to climb back to the roof. The runner mage goes invisible and escapes the gate.
The phys ad and the street sam climb back up to the roof and to take out the mage.
The mage casts lightning bolt through his ally spirit only to miss and the combat decker too snap shot the ally spirit but good.
The phys ad takes out the mage from behind and the street sam shots dead a Red Samurai on the opporsite roof.
One hvar toting red samurai stand between them and freedom.
The red samurai starts throwing grenades. The street sam throws them back!

Final score. Renraku 0 runners 18 and change

...so did they go back to the J and "express" their displeasure to him afterwards?

Strangly, no.
Because he had left town anyway and the mage is an ex Halloweener so Renraku will rue the day.....

Renraku ambush mark 2

The same team as before is called into help a besieged runner group with which they are close friends. The same friends in fact they blew up an renraku arcology to save in the first place.

Unknown to the PC's, what is left of the Red samuria from ambush one, have healed up, recruited seven out the box but mini-maxed (sorry 'optimized') combat runners and are dead set on a lot of wet work.

The npc runners live on the top two floors of a skyracker in redmond, which they to their credit have fortified. However the helipad on top means the combat teams can fly in over the Barrens to get to them.
Basic plan is to rappel down the outside of the building and cut off escape for the runners by covering the stair wells. Then scare them into calling for help. Then killing the pc's by trapping them in a stair well, from above, below and on the same floor. No matter which pitch black stair well they travel up, the other teams can swing into encircle them.
The Pc's run to the rescue and find the local gang (paid off by the Red Samuria) guarding the entrance. The mage uses trid phantasm to create a rival gang to attack and distract them. Hefty drain.
The PC's sneak in. They climb up the many floors in contact with the friends under siege.
Encountering the first enemy they are stuck on the stairs, with grenades being rolled down.
So they throw them back. Impass, they can only get them far enough away to not get them but not around and up the fold back stairs.
Stealth and invisiblity allow the street sam to take out the enemy above them but makes the mistake of walking out on to the floor and killing a troll merc, gets a deadly wound from a mana bolt and is dying.
Rest of the party continues up the stairs. They are then chased up the stairs by the three Red samurai while the rest of the enemy runners seek to stop them leaving the stair well on any other floor.
The phys ad archer peels off on to one of the other floors and is quickly caught up in hide and seek gun fight. The mage and combat decker haul ass ever higher with the sound of pursuit behind them. They reach the fortified door and are let in.
A few minutes later there is a large earth elemental pounding on the locked door.

Meanwhile the street sam is saved from the white light by healing both mundane and magical from two of the friendly runners that are trying to escape in the confusion.
On serious plus three boxs he engages his pain editor and runs to save his lord, the mage.

The door gives way and the pc mage and the Red sam mage go at it hammer and tongs. The combat decker is enaging one of the red sammies in a gun battle and the other hvar totting red sam is covering down the stairs.
The street sam with help from the two friendly runners fights his way through the rest of the enemy and saves the phys ad who's too injured to fight, using karma like candy.
The mage is starting to lose the spell slinging contest and things look real bad with three uninjured Red sam's in medium sec armour to get through to survive.

The street sam tries to get to the red sam mage, only to dodge the hvar fire and the grenades, which he throws back, again.
The combat decker goes down dying to a fireball, which also injures the PC mage. The street sam manages a nigh impossiable shot to kill the Hvar red sam. Races up two fights of stairs and engages the tiger form ally spirit. Wins. Distracts the Red sam mage just long enough( one intiative pass~) for the PC mage to nuke him with a mana bolt that kills him. The street sam takes two more deadly wounds, staging down just enough not to die outright, but is on the floor dying. The the PC mage passes out from channeling drain.

All goes black.
If it wasn't for the allied runners they had come to save getting good healing rolls all the PC's would be toast.