I am sitting here with my Shadowrun team and they are new to using magic and I myself don't have a lot of experience yet with mages (Since no one bothered to play one in my game before, I rarely used it.)
There are two spells in the SR4 Core Book that have us confused. The description of how they work are a bit confusing.
SPELL: ARMOR - (SR4 Core Pg. 202) This spell lists its Drain Value as Force / 2 +3. The exact text says:
Full Version: WTF - Explain These Spells
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| This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the subject that protects against Physical damage. It provides both Ballistic and Impact armor (cumulative with worn armor) to the subject equal to the hits scored. |
The way this is written.. why would any mage cast the spell with more than a Force 1 attached to it? If the Force of the spell has no baring on the final total result for your armor increase what is the point of casting Armor at more than a 1 force? Is there some text missing from this paragraph?
SPELL: HEAL - (SR4 Core - Pg. 199) This spell lists Drain Value as (Damage Value - 2) Can someone clarify the Damage Value? Is it saying that if you are healing a guy with 9 boxes of damage your drain value to resist is 7?
Say Bob cast the spell at force one and score ten hits.
While Tim casts the spell at force three and scores three hits.
Who's spell is more powerful? Tim's no matter how many hits you make you can't keep more then the force of the spell. The force is the all mighty limiter.
While Tim casts the spell at force three and scores three hits.
Who's spell is more powerful? Tim's no matter how many hits you make you can't keep more then the force of the spell. The force is the all mighty limiter.
Force limits the number of successful hits. If you cast at Force 1, you can only have 1 hit. At least that's how my group has chosen to read it.
Armor spell:
| QUOTE |
| The way this is written.. why would any mage cast the spell with more than a Force 1 attached to it? If the Force of the spell has no baring on the final total result for your armor increase what is the point of casting Armor at more than a 1 force? Is there some text missing from this paragraph? |
Nope, there's no text missing from the paragraph; you must have missed the section that says that a spell's hits are capped by its force; ergo, a Force 1 Armor spell, even if the spellcaster scored five hits on the spellcasting test, still only provides an armor increase of 1/1.
As for the Heal Spell... I've been wondering on that myself; my thought at the moment is that, yes, if someone has 9 boxes of damage, the Drain is 7.
The only difference to Drain that Force makes for a Heal spell is whether damage is Physical from the Drain. Thus, Heal is only ever cast at two Forces: Your Magic; and Twice Your Magic. But it still limits hits.
-Frank
-Frank
| QUOTE (bibliophile20) | ||
Armor spell:
Nope, there's no text missing from the paragraph; you must have missed the section that says that a spell's hits are capped by its force; ergo, a Force 1 Armor spell, even if the spellcaster scored five hits on the spellcasting test, still only provides an armor increase of 1/1. As for the Heal Spell... I've been wondering on that myself; my thought at the moment is that, yes, if someone has 9 boxes of damage, the Drain is 7. |
On the Heal... my mage is not wanting to heal the guy fully. It's a ganger they roasted with a Wall of Fire spell. THey wanted to give him enough hits back to snap him back from unconciousness to question him.
So why should he receive such a hard drain if he's not putting all of his effort into healing this clown?
Because, it doesn't matter how much effort he's putting into it, the spell is designed to heal fully, not only bits and pieces.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| Thus, Heal is only ever cast at two Forces: Your Magic; and Twice Your Magic. But it still limits hits. |
Can you tell me where in the rules this is stated? I found this rule nowhere in either SR4 or Street Magic. Granted, the rules layout isn't the best, as some rules seem to be scattered in many different places, so I might have missed it. But, in reading the Spellcasting section, the lead-in to Health spells and the Healing spell description itself, this little tidbit never shows up.
| QUOTE (Rock_Bottom) | ||
Can you tell me where in the rules this is stated? I found this rule nowhere in either SR4 or Street Magic. Granted, the rules layout isn't the best, as some rules seem to be scattered in many different places, so I might have missed it. But, in reading the Spellcasting section, the lead-in to Health spells and the Healing spell description itself, this little tidbit never shows up. |
I think he meant you can only EFFICIENTLY cast at those levels. The spellcaster can always choose the force, but if you have magic 5 you might as well cast a force 5 or force 10 spell, as the amount of drain is not based on force in this case. Thus the only difference is stun or physical drain.
There is no reason to cast it at any other force. Casting it at magic is max healing possibility for stun damage. At double magic for max healing possiblity with physical damage. Since your drain is always DV - 2 it doesn't matter what force it is, besides whether drain is S or P, and how many hits it caps at.
| QUOTE (Kool Kat) |
| On the Heal... my mage is not wanting to heal the guy fully. It's a ganger they roasted with a Wall of Fire spell. THey wanted to give him enough hits back to snap him back from unconciousness to question him. |
bah, forget heal, go for mind probe
I let Damage Value = Damage you are trying to heal.
But, I'm nice and that is the best possible interpretation of the rules. However, I do enforce the only one healing for one set of wounds thing, so if you only want to heal 2, it still seals off the rest of that set of damage from being healed.
Chris
But, I'm nice and that is the best possible interpretation of the rules. However, I do enforce the only one healing for one set of wounds thing, so if you only want to heal 2, it still seals off the rest of that set of damage from being healed.
Chris
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| Can you tell me where in the rules this is stated? I found this rule nowhere in either SR4 or Street Magic. |
'cause magic is stoopid . . magic does what it is intended for . . it does not THINK about what it does . . you tell magic with that spell:"heal!" and once you cast, magic heals until it's done one way or the other . .
in the event that the question was intended to be about the "force limits hits" statement, then that particular information is found on page 171 of the main book, under the heading 'force'.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) | ||
bah, forget heal, go for mind probe |
Mind probe doesn't work when the person is unconcious. Although they probably could've woken him up with a stim patch. Maybe.
| QUOTE (Trax @ Nov 11 2007, 02:34 PM) | ||||
Mind probe doesn't work when the person is unconcious. Although they probably could've woken him up with a stim patch. Maybe. |
Nothing in the spell's description states that they have to be conscious. The spell is probing their mind, not their surface thoughts. An unconscious mind is still a mind.
Would probably give some wonky results, though, as an unconscious mind is a different beast from a conscious one.
only if you get a low number of its.
on 3-4, the caster can go into any memory. on 5+, he can even enter the sub-conscious...
but on 1-2, he would probably get some interesting results...
on 3-4, the caster can go into any memory. on 5+, he can even enter the sub-conscious...
but on 1-2, he would probably get some interesting results...
Side question on the Armor spell. The description says a glowing field or something to that affect. So can the armor be seen by mundanes? Does the glow provide enough light to see and be seen by?
| QUOTE (Stormdrake) |
| Side question on the Armor spell. The description says a glowing field or something to that affect. So can the armor be seen by mundanes? Does the glow provide enough light to see and be seen by? |
Yes. Some people have house ruled versions of the spell which don't do that.
-Frank
At least enough light to shot at.
I always got the impression that magic's actual visual effect was more of an element of the will of the user; that is so say if the caster "feels" that it would be visual, that it will be. All based on the tradition.
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| ...since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it. |
| QUOTE (DTFarstar) |
| But, I'm nice and that is the best possible interpretation of the rules. However, I do enforce the only one healing for one set of wounds thing, so if you only want to heal 2, it still seals off the rest of that set of damage from being healed. Chris |
I do the same thing, as best as possible. So, you may be healing a character with 9 boxes of damage, but that may be 3, 3 box wounds, so you cast the spell three times.
Also remember, that Healing must be sustained until it is permanent, so casting at higher force, while not causing anymore drain, does effect how long you have to sustain it, as you can transfer net hits to reduce the time to permanent...
Will have to bring that up to my mages next game session. Kinda a big draw back if your trying to be stealthy, lol.
with regard to heal (and to an extent first aid)
I let the player choose before they roll weather they are treating one wound or all the wounds.
If they treat them all then its one action but counts all the wounds as one big wound (for drain and outcome).
If they go after one wound at a time then they would have to take multiple actions to fully heal someone but would treat eac hone as its own wound for drain and outcome.
The only time they dont get a choice is stabalising then I treat it all as one wound.
Example time (or heres one I shot up earlier)
Bob (say hello bob..h-h-hello) is a runner, none too lucky but a runner nonetheless.
one day whilst out with his colleagues on some nefarious (nice word that) job he gets hit by some corp sec grunt, now thanks to Bob's hardy physique and Ares Combat Jacket (with the 12 month garuntee) he only takes a single box of physical.
Later that run after leaving the facility the meet with the johnson goes sour (who'd of thought it!) and Mr J's goons pull out some artillery and soon its little bits of death in the air for everybody. during this fracas Bob takes 2 further wounds one of 2 physical (manabolt) and one of 3 (shotgun with slugs), putting Bob onto a slightly worrying 6 physical.
Now Bobs freind Chuck (Hi Chuck) is a shaman and begins to work his mojo, he treats the shotgun round first (since its spurting all over the place and they dont wont to get the back of the van all messy) one quick heal later (with a a paltry DV of 1) and Bob is feeling significantly better off.
Whilst on the way back to the warehouse they all call home (somebody didnt keep any nuyen back for lifestyle tsk tsk), Larry (..., hmm Larry seems a little surly) applies some first aid tob Bob for the other two injuries treating them as a single wound of 3, Larry with his large dicepool is confidant of fixing it all up and sending Bob on his way with a lollypop. however due in part to the cramped nature of the van he dosent do quite as well as hed hoped and only heals one box, Bob is now stuck with havi ng to rely on long term healing.
I let the player choose before they roll weather they are treating one wound or all the wounds.
If they treat them all then its one action but counts all the wounds as one big wound (for drain and outcome).
If they go after one wound at a time then they would have to take multiple actions to fully heal someone but would treat eac hone as its own wound for drain and outcome.
The only time they dont get a choice is stabalising then I treat it all as one wound.
Example time (or heres one I shot up earlier)
Bob (say hello bob..h-h-hello) is a runner, none too lucky but a runner nonetheless.
one day whilst out with his colleagues on some nefarious (nice word that) job he gets hit by some corp sec grunt, now thanks to Bob's hardy physique and Ares Combat Jacket (with the 12 month garuntee) he only takes a single box of physical.
Later that run after leaving the facility the meet with the johnson goes sour (who'd of thought it!) and Mr J's goons pull out some artillery and soon its little bits of death in the air for everybody. during this fracas Bob takes 2 further wounds one of 2 physical (manabolt) and one of 3 (shotgun with slugs), putting Bob onto a slightly worrying 6 physical.
Now Bobs freind Chuck (Hi Chuck) is a shaman and begins to work his mojo, he treats the shotgun round first (since its spurting all over the place and they dont wont to get the back of the van all messy) one quick heal later (with a a paltry DV of 1) and Bob is feeling significantly better off.
Whilst on the way back to the warehouse they all call home (somebody didnt keep any nuyen back for lifestyle tsk tsk), Larry (..., hmm Larry seems a little surly) applies some first aid tob Bob for the other two injuries treating them as a single wound of 3, Larry with his large dicepool is confidant of fixing it all up and sending Bob on his way with a lollypop. however due in part to the cramped nature of the van he dosent do quite as well as hed hoped and only heals one box, Bob is now stuck with havi ng to rely on long term healing.
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