Why do different metahuman cultures exist at all? I particularly have a hard time understanding metahuman kingdoms. One day everybody in the US (or whatever it was at the time) was a human US citizen. The next day something goes wacky and Billy and Sue turn into a dwarf and an elf (along with a lot of other Americans). Billy and Sure are still Billy and Sue… with somewhat altered bodies. Billy and Sues family, friends and coworkers presumably will come to see Billy the dwarf and Sue the elf as… well.. Billy and Sue.. perhaps a bit shorter / hotter. Not only do Billy and Sue become Elves and Dwarves, but so do others millions of people… many of whom are public figures who have garnered great respect and admiration over the years. I would imagine that nearly everybody would have a friend, family member or somebody they respect who became an elf or dwarf. I don’t see a lot of cause for strife.

Generally in human history when you see one group who hate’s another, there always seems to be the “invader� scenario. One group sees something they once had claim to taken away or threatened by another group that is somehow a newcomer. I really don’t see that in the SR elf / dwarf scenario for the reasons I discussed above.

In real life equivalency, the closest phenomena I can see which correlates to SR’s elf / dwarf awakening is homosexuality. Just as with modern gays, all of the people in the minority group began their lives as “normal� and then something took them off randomly from a majority group member into a minority group. Generally any opposition to homosexuals living in peace comes from dopes who’s philosophy is shaped from a religious tradition with a specific prohibition against homosexuality. Elves and Dwarves would likely not even have this hurtle to overcome (particularly assuming a number of clergymen experienced the transformation).

Now, Orks and Trolls…. Well… Since they look ugly and have considerable changes in cognitive ability and even temperament. I can see a form of alienation occurring with them.

Where did metahuman culture come from? I understand different cultures having traditions that date back generations that set them apart from other cultures. But the Elves and Dwarves of shadowrun came from the same stock as everybody else. “Quick, we need a racial identity….Let’s make up some new holidays and stuff�. I think most folks would want to stick with the genuine cultural traditions of their families and ethnicity rather than some kind of hip cultural trend; particularly since dwarves and elves likely came from an equally diverse cross section of ethnicity, socioeconomics, religions, etc. I don’t see a lot of them seeing eye to eye when making up the new “traditions�.

For starters, no one "turned into" Elves or Dwarves. Goblinization only affected Orks and Trolls -- Elves and Dwarves had to be born that way (and still do).

And second, as far as various metaracial cultures go, for the most part there aren't any. Elves have developed one (or rather, evolved one) thanks to the influence of various Immortal Elves. Orks have their own sort of gangsta-rap flavored inner city gig going. Dwarves and Trolls are swept under the rug by the developers and don't tend to have much going for them except for stereotypes (short little hard workers, or overgrown Orks).

Don't think too hard about the SR background unless you are planning to make wholesale changes to the setting and "history". Otherwise your head will explode.

Synner667....The reasons I chose homosexuality is because it is a real cultural occurrence that we can and do witness. We don’t have to speculate. With the hypothetical you suggest, were back to guessing rather than looking at a real and somewhat similar situation for insight about the hypothetical were already considering.

I always thought that what "metahuman-specific culture" was there was developped in the last 50 years, based upon clichees and movies/novels/games as well as existing cultures.

Compared to human cultures with real traditions, those "cultures" don't have the same influence and impact though, in my campaign. More like a gang culture written large, or Tolkien-themed SimCity.

Actually, I think the best example is a very real one. Dwarves... little people... I don't know what the PC term is nowadays, in real life. They do have their own culture. Own brand of products, conventions to showcase said products and act as a gathering place so they don't feel alone... It's a very different culture. Of course now it's being filmed all the time...*sigh* I guess I mind the little docudrama shows that follow fat people or small people or whatever around less than I mind reality shows.

Anyway, that is a much more accurate comparison, I think. They are born that way and according to a lot them they feel ostracized much of their life. If their parents are normals then neither can ever really identify with each other, etc. Now I don't know if that is true or not because I've gotten most of that information from the TV(girlfriend loves those shows) and one girl in my physics class.

Chris

Homosexuals should stage a military invasion of Greece to reclaim their historical homeland, creating a Gaysrael, of sorts. The fact that they don't is do to lack of strong leadership, really. If homosexuals had someone with vision, charisma, and amorality of Hitler (they say that Hitler loved the male/male buttsechs, which makes him a sort of Benedict Arnold), they would be unstoppable due to their secret infiltration of various militaries across the globe.

Elves do have a leader with the vision, charisma, and amorality of Hitler to lead them. In fact, Hitler probably got most of his ideas from her.
With 20,000 years worth of ready-made canned culture, rampant racism, and Native American's self-liberation, the whole elf nation idea was quite ripe. Paying lip service to the other awakened races, including non-humans, didn't hurt, either.

Israel is actually a really good example. There was never a Jewish State. Jews just happened to live wherever, doing their own thing. They didn't speak the same language, eat the same foods, or wear the same clothes. But in the late 1930s some people made a very credible attempt to kill them all, and the fallout and backlash created a "Jewish Nation" by the late 1940s.

In the 2020s, some people made a very credible looking attempt to kill all the metahumans. And in the 2030s, the backlash and fallout created some metahuman specific countries.

-Frank

I agree with the general idea that is being displayed by the recent posters. Except maybe hyzmarca, that is just completely off the wall and I don't even know how to begin to reply to that. The main thing I see with the Goblinization is that it made changes that were hideous and ugly. I think these changes are so radical and significant that people would treat even loved ones differently. "That thing isn't the Johnny I knew, IT is a monster". Of course there would be those people of high stature and quality that would be capable of treating metahumans like normal human beings, but such people would be very few. Elves would most likely see the least of all racism because they are more visually attractive. Dwarves would probably be treated about the same as midgets do now. They aren't really a new entity to society since people of small size already exist. Sure, they look a bit different but I don't see this doing much, especially when there are orks and trolls out there. If anything, maybe people might even feel sorry for dwarves.

As for the development of culture, such things happen when there are people that can identify with each other more so than any other group of society; in this case the unifying element would be race. This is especially common in minorities that experience strong oppression. People of those minorities really have no choice but to band together and unify as a stronger entity with its own agenda and goals. If they don't do this, they risk being picked off one by one. Also, people of these minorities know they can trust each other, since they most likely have had similar experiences and struggles.

Why did we have a community of DS? Where did it come from, why is it here? Help me understand!

Also, don't forget the context.

At around the time the Metas started gunning for their own countries, the peoples of the world were already suffering major identity crisises. Religions, initially incapable of dogmatising the Awakening, lost millions of believers. Countries exploded or imploded, making many lose their sense of nationality. Then race actually became second place to race, as in are you even human?

As everyone everyone lost their sense of belonging to anything that defined them, that void was easily filled with a new sense of belonging. In the case of Elves, that was especially easy as Elven 'culture' was quickly (re)created by the Immortals (though of course no one knew that).

It is flawed to think "hey, wouldn't happen today, therefore cannot happen in SR" as the circumstances between today and when things happen in SR are completely different.

I can very easily see metahuman culture happening quickly. People know to associate mostly with people that look like they do, even if they harbor no enmity toward people that don't. That's why a lot of liberals take flak for hanging out with almost-entirely white crowds. It's not that they're racists, they just instinctively hang out with people that look like they do. Then, over time, this leads to other factors that also insulate the group. Any group is going to develop it's own mores.

Basically, all it took probably was the short period of time that everybody was still flipping out about elven babies and not really understanding what UGE was. If people think being an elf is contagious, the only other little kids that elf is going to be able to hang out with are other elves, and those little kid years are critical for developing social skills. Suddenly, you've got a whole generation that learned from the outset to hang out with each other, possibly even developing one of those freaky secret languages that twins develop, because they identify with each other more closely than with their parents (or, as I like to think of it, "the Secret Origins of Sperethiel--minus the annying IEs!"). And once those kids have been segregated, it's going to be incredibly difficult to take away the mindset that creates. I can definitely see why metahumans would section themselves off for life, and why they'd make their own nations when they came of age. What I can't see is, why only elves would do this, or how they'd be capable of it when they were only in their mid twenties, like they would have been in the 30s. I don't mind IE's when it's easy to take them out of the game, but when they intrinsically require their presence for the setting to make sense, it's like their juices are already cooked in, so no matter how much picking you do, the taste will always be there...

Well, one of the thngs that I'd definitely say about any Metahuman culture and government is that it is going to have very strong fascist tendencies. A small elite that clings to some sort of metaphor of a "cultural ideal" and traditions. Elves have always been portrayed in mythology and literature as living in the forest and having a monarchy. Tolkien portrays the Orks as brutal and violent so Ork society is developing along those lines (thrash bands, gangsta-rap, punk rock).

Duh, that one's easy to explain. Everyone just thought the short little kiddies were just so gosh darned cute they went and gave 'em Halferville.

The funny thing about the Vietnam War was how the changes in Conscription Laws affected social movements. When conscription was first brought in anyone who was accepted at a college was exempt from the draft. Towards the middle of the 60's it was quickly becoming apparent to the LBJ administration that they didn't have enough troops "in country." So they changed the draft to "in college and with a passing grade." All of a sudden you couldn't just coast and avoid the draft.

Nothing like immenent conscription to motivate social consciousness.

Some of the metahuman culture stuff makes sense to me.

Okay, sure, the IE's helped with making the Tir's happen. Ehran and Deigh and the others who had a few millenia to get things into position, including getting ready to spring Sperethiel on the world. When you have the commonality that others have talked about in appearance, a common language, and the whole "wheel of life" religion, just add land to get a society.

Everyone seems to forget the Black Forest Troll Kingdom when talking about meta lands. Trolls have some real physical reasons to band together, when you consider that they live in a world sized for people 1-1.5 meters smaller than them. I'm a 350 pound human guy and I even get this. Clothes are hard to find, I have to be careful sitting in some chairs, some I can't even fit in, etc...

Orks now have the common language of Or'Zet to build on and a common appearance. All they really need is a leader with the vision to take a land and make it their own.

Dwarfs also have the same, but opposite, problem the trolls have. Living in a world sized for human sized folks when you're smaller than everyone but children. But I kind of doubt if they'll start a society of their own. It's much easier to just live in the cracks of human society (Dwarftown, like Chinatown but smaller).

Just my 2 worth
Apollo

Meh. That would require tech, and a dingy basement. Elves prefer nature and meadows. They're flower-eaters, not Dorito-eaters; they CAN'T make good nerds.

I thought trolls were the ones who liked nature? Didn't elves prefer power?

I'm deducing their general behavior from the phrase "flower eater." If anyone has a more sound informational approach than recalling old 2nd edition racial slurs, I'd love to hear it.

The thing to remember about SR is that fluff is just fluff, it ain't necessarily so. Elves are called Dandelion-Eaters in earlier additions, but that doesn't mean they are all vegetarian, just that society is applying a stereotype. Not all Dwarves are good with tech, not all trolls are lumbering hulks.

Equally that doesn't mean that society is the same as it is now. The metahumans are tending to gravitate in into discrete cultures, partly because of prior influence in the case of the elves, partly because it's just easier to live with other trolls if your a troll.

Fluff is just fluff in SR, nothing else.

I wrote the rest of Synners quote, why the're mixed up I don't know.

Elves have also been called 'Keebs' throughout Shadowrun history, but that doesn't mean they all spend their time sitting around making cookies. It's just a name.

Neither do I, but if "fluff" is more interesting, I use it, regardless of what "rules" say. The rules are the least important piece of the game.

It happens. I just meant to clarify, not sound defensive.

I guess this has become a discussion of what's more important to a game: rules or setting?

Would Shadowrun still be Shadowrun if you tossed out the corps, the shadows, the dystopianism, the Johnsons, and all that jazz? I'm severely doubtful. Just as D20, when just used as a ruleset, can be adapted to many different games, if you take the fluff out of SR, it's suddenly just a set of arbitrary rules including cyberware and magic. Does it fit in every setting? No, but it could easily be a steam-punk game, a current day game, etc.

That being said Shadowrun with a different set of rules would still be Shadowrun. what defines the game isn't the rules (which have gone through 4 editions already, I might point out). Instead, it's the fluff that makes the world and makes the game. Even if it's taken broadly and your run your campaign in Pittsburgh with small corps that are never mentioned in canon, you're relying on the fluff to color your game.

Certainly, it can be argued either way, but I can't see Shadowrun existing without the fluff to back it up.

I'd really like to say that you're right, Moon Hawk, but there's already proof otherwise with the World of Darkness, which released a D20 version recently. A lot of people don't like the d20 rules for it, but it's still World of Darkness.