Full Version: Naval damage codes
i don;t really feel like stealing another copy of rigger3 online, and was hoping for someone to throw me a bone. Wasn't it something line NL was +15 power and ND was +40?
We found the conversion as written doesn't work well. When my character finally got a target for the rail gun on the Tbird it did less damage then a panther cannon IIRC. It was absurdly low compared to what we expected. Can't remember what the heck the details were now.
For Power: multiply base Power by the number of DLs above D (x1 for LN, x2 for MN, etc.).
Weapon is considered AoE against normal-scale targets.
Stage damage as normal, except that LN stages to D instead of to nothing. If damage remains in the Naval scale, follow the box-filling progression past 10 (LN=15 boxes, MN=21 boxes, etc.).
As a result, the Xicohtencatl is fairly underpowered at a mere 6 Power even against ordinary-scale targets; a beefy Troll or someone with a lot of Combat Pool can expect to survive a low-success hit. The simplest way to fix this is to bump up the Power multiplier by one (x2 for LN, x3 for MN, etc.).
Curiously, there's no comment on armor that I can find. While a strict interpretation would indicate that it therefore applies, I think it's reasonable to treat it like AV ammo on a direct hit at least.
~J
Weapon is considered AoE against normal-scale targets.
Stage damage as normal, except that LN stages to D instead of to nothing. If damage remains in the Naval scale, follow the box-filling progression past 10 (LN=15 boxes, MN=21 boxes, etc.).
As a result, the Xicohtencatl is fairly underpowered at a mere 6 Power even against ordinary-scale targets; a beefy Troll or someone with a lot of Combat Pool can expect to survive a low-success hit. The simplest way to fix this is to bump up the Power multiplier by one (x2 for LN, x3 for MN, etc.).
Curiously, there's no comment on armor that I can find. While a strict interpretation would indicate that it therefore applies, I think it's reasonable to treat it like AV ammo on a direct hit at least.
~J
or if you try to catch a 4.5 inch shell-you go boom!
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| The simplest way to fix this is to bump up the Power multiplier by one (x2 for LN, x3 for MN, etc.). |
That is in fact how the damage code works, Multiply by the number of levels above D+1
| QUOTE |
| Curiously, there's no comment on armor that I can find. While a strict interpretation would indicate that it therefore applies, I think it's reasonable to treat it like AV ammo on a direct hit at least. ~J |
Considering that the weapons are designed to go up against Ships, which have a Bulwark (From which they get to apply the full rating of). That would be the minimum effect against personal armour.
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc) | ||
That is in fact how the damage code works, Multiply by the number of levels above D+1 |
Ladies and gentlemen, why I shouldn't post early in the morning.
So yeah, it'd be 12*LN against meat targets (I add the asterisk to indicate that Power has already been modified for naval scaling; there should probably be some official notation for that). If you allow full armor (which a strict reading of the text, again, would indicate—though I don't think it's the intention), heavily-armored individuals with plenty of Body might shrug off, or at least consistently survive, low-success Light Railgun shots. If you nullify armor, a character with Body 20 and 10 Combat Pool will survive a one-success direct hit (at S damage) 0.13% of the time, and will take no damage (full soak) fewer times than my odds-calculating program can distinguish from zero.
If, on the other hand, you give Armor a fair go and treat the weapon as AV, the best-case (for the person being hit) is…
For the sake of this example, and so I don't have to dig through looking for the best legal armor combination, let's imagine our hypothetical troll above somehow layering Medium Military Armor over Heavy Military Armor, for a total of 13 Ballistic. Throw in a helmet to get him to 15, and pretend this doesn't actually decrease his Combat Pool. After adjustment he gets 7 points of effective armor, putting him at 5*LN, or a 98.77% chance of surviving with S or better. I guess I should have gone with a less absurd example. Still, his odds of taking no damage are still under 50%, despite discarding about half the armor rules.
Now for a less exaggerated example. We'll still give Biff the Troll no Combat Pool penalties, but this time we'll give him Heavy Security Armor, a Military Helmet, and over it all an Armored Jacket, for a total of 11. That gives him 5 effective armor, giving him 7*LN. He's got nearly a 60% chance of surviving, but only a 22% chance of coming out with less than Serious, 5% of less than Moderate, and 0.67% chance of coming out unscathed.
So yeah, things may be a little on the overly-survivable side, but I'm not sure it's going to make a difference in most campaigns, especially the ones in which people firing railguns can get more than one success.
~J
Is that your rule or something in the books. seriously, a humanoid shape should not survive a direct hit by a 4.5 in shell. Concussion alone should shred the body of even the toughest troll/
There is nothing in the books talking about what to do with metahuman-scale armor in naval-scale damage, so it would be my own rule, in contrast to what would otherwise be assumed to be full canon—that armor counts normally.
We're also not talking about a 4.5 inch shell, though the legal Biff could (assuming that's a Light Naval Gun, at 8LN) survive a hit from that ~2.35% of the time.
~J
We're also not talking about a 4.5 inch shell, though the legal Biff could (assuming that's a Light Naval Gun, at 8LN) survive a hit from that ~2.35% of the time.
~J
The unwritten rule here I think indicates junky salsa effect.
I don't really have a problem with uber-trolls surviving a direct hit with a naval weapon. I mean, his archtype is that of the Brick; he is clearly focused on surviving direct hits. While he presents a target and takes a direct shot from a railgun, his buddies step out with rocket launchers and shred the T-bird.
Of course, you have to be some kind of crazy to deliberately make yourself a target for a Naval-scale weapon, but it can work. On the other hand, more normal Shadowrunners are almost certainly dead unless they invoke the Hand of God.
Of course, you have to be some kind of crazy to deliberately make yourself a target for a Naval-scale weapon, but it can work. On the other hand, more normal Shadowrunners are almost certainly dead unless they invoke the Hand of God.
The above (legal) amount of armor, ten Combat Pool, and a Body of only 6 provides you with an 11% chance of surviving, which is a little on the high side. Of course, this all depends on impossibly high Quickness or base Combat Pool; I might have to see if I can work out a more realistic example if I get the time.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Pendaric @ Nov 25 2007, 12:06 PM) |
| The unwritten rule here I think indicates junky salsa effect. |
Yup. It's just a question of : how many bits do they find to try and bury?
4.5 inch is the standard navy gun for destroyers and smaller. If some one wants a cruiser you can be talking up to a 9 inch shell. This isn't counting missiles.
Though let's be honest. If you're engaging a destroyer, or rather it's engaging you with it's main gun, you're pretty much hosed unless you're running in a pale blue body stocking with a big red cape.
and one thing the rules don't cover but you might see in use. I live outside Philadelphia, across the river in Camden New Jersey, is the USS New Jersey, an Iowa class battleship that was upgraded by reagan and fought in the 1st Gulf war. Her cruise missiles can reach Dallas from where she currently sits, but for the sake of this thread, she has 3 double turrets on each side, each carrying 5 inch guns. Her main armament are nine 16 inch guns set in three triple turrets.
If you've never seen one of these, trust me, photos do NOT do it justice. The 5 inchers are scary looking, The 16 inchers don't look real. That having been said a runner is in deep drek if even the 40 mm AA's open fire on them.
Then again, one has to wonder exactly what kind of naval gun can actually track and engage a metahuman-sized target. Smart munitions certainly can if they're being rigged in (or the old-fasioned varient: laser-designated), but I woulden't think main big-boom guns would traverse fast enough to engage a Shadowrunner.
If you are running at 20km/hr at 5km you are barely moving more than 0.05 degrees per second. I think they can keep up. IIRC, the HE round has something like a 200 meter lethal radius.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| If you are running at 20km/hr at 5km you are barely moving more than 0.05 degrees per second. I think they can keep up. IIRC, the HE round has something like a 200 meter lethal radius. |
I question the ability of their targeting sensors to track and identify something that size as a target, though. It's more the kind of weapon you use to engage ships or buildings than people.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| I question the ability of their targeting sensors to track and identify something that size as a target, though. It's more the kind of weapon you use to engage ships or buildings than people. |
A modern ship uses multi-axis stabilized optics and thermal sensors with high magnification mounted high up.
I'd not bet my life on it.
Oh well.
Even so, you can still say that you were so damn hard they had to use a ship to engage you. Not the pintle-mounted MGs or the Marines, they had to fire the main guns at you. That's something.
Even so, you can still say that you were so damn hard they had to use a ship to engage you. Not the pintle-mounted MGs or the Marines, they had to fire the main guns at you. That's something.
In WW2 they could track and destroy Japanese planes. Bigger than a runner but moving 300 mph.
Someone already said it, but it bears repeating- chunky salsa!
Someone already said it, but it bears repeating- chunky salsa!
It should be noted that for normal-scale objects (including living objects), naval-scale weapons are treated as having an AoE, so chunky salsa can indeed occur if the target is too close to a wall.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja) |
| In WW2 they could track and destroy Japanese planes. Bigger than a runner but moving 300 mph. Someone already said it, but it bears repeating- chunky salsa! |
With Ak-Ak maybe, but I call bullshit on engaging Japanese planes with the main guns. Their guns just weren't accurate enough!
And you'd be wrong. The primary batteries couldn't track but it was found in a massed attack, their shells threw up enough concussion to disrupt airplanes. In attacking the Bismark, the one swordfish brought down was taken out by the concussion of a passing hsell from their 15 inch main battery.
For tracking-the 5 inch secondary armaments could and did track. The idea was to lead the aircraft and let fly at where it would be when the shell burst. Think of it like really, really big skeet shooting. Again to hark back to the Bismark, they tried to do that with the Swordfish attacking wth torpedos but those relics of a past age flew so slowly the guns couldn't track on them. After the first shot the secondary guns tracked faster than the planes could fly and shot harmlessly ahead of the British planes.
For tracking-the 5 inch secondary armaments could and did track. The idea was to lead the aircraft and let fly at where it would be when the shell burst. Think of it like really, really big skeet shooting. Again to hark back to the Bismark, they tried to do that with the Swordfish attacking wth torpedos but those relics of a past age flew so slowly the guns couldn't track on them. After the first shot the secondary guns tracked faster than the planes could fly and shot harmlessly ahead of the British planes.
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