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Kronk2
I was thinking something like 15s (ap/2)-4 which gives a maximum unaugmented max of 4 dice to armor value. in anything less than a full sec suit with a riot shield the target is pretty well hosed. now add in annoyances like bone lacing and mystic armor and tolerances go higher , still with 15 boxes of stun, most anything is going down.
kzt
And with overflow how often will they be DEAD?
Kronk2
its a stun wep, sure they might suffer some surface burns, or at worst possible a heart attack, but I am sure defibrillation is passe'
Critias
What do you need these for? What role do they fill in a campaign world that regular stun weapons don't? Why would anyone still use regular stun weapons? Does the game really need automatic one-shot-KO stuff that badly?
kzt
QUOTE (Kronk2)
its a stun wep, sure they might suffer some surface burns, or at worst possible a heart attack, but I am sure defibrillation is passe'

You missed P153?

"If the damage is Stun, it carries over into the Physical column.
For example, if a character with a Stun Condition Monitor of 11
boxes who has already taken 6 boxes takes another 8-box Stun hit,
that character’s player would fi ll in the last 5 boxes in the Stun column,
and then fi ll in 3 boxes in the Physical column. If the character
has already taken damage in the Physical column, treat the
excess Stun damage as additional Physical damage and add it to
the existing damage."

And successes add to the roll, so an average cop rolling average will do 7 physical, so knocking them unconscious and into the ICU in one shot. Cool. And on a good roll, bam, instant death.
Narmio
No thanks.

Existing stun weapons are extremely scary for even a moderately competent user. So much so that I've seen builds where they're used exclusively, with a knife on hand to stab them afterwards if a more final solution is desired.

I think they're good. Let's leave them alone.
Ryu
This has a better expected physical damage than most close combat weapons, especially if you don´t have extreme strength.
FriendoftheDork
Broken. Stun weapons are too good already. 8S damage is nasty and far more effective than anything but elephant rifles (with XX) or HMGs.
Sir_Psycho
I'm not sure if it's included in SR4, but there is the insta-coronary stunstick, the AZ-150. I see no reason why it won't appear in Arsenal.
bogomips
Holy drek, it just occurred to me. What happens if you fire stick-n-shock ammo from burst fire? I guess I'm going to have to assume that it just adds to the DV per usual burst rules rather than adding cumulative stun damage.

Still a long, narrow burst of stick-n-shock ammo has the potential to do 11S before hits are factored in. On a gas vent 3 weapon, with a stock that shot is made at a -1. indifferent.gif
mfb
regular bullets don't do separate damage in a burst; i dont see why shock weapons should.
Whipstitch
Yes, it does just add to the DV, which is why I've always advocated stick and shock in machine pistols for a decent balance of firepower and concealment. Another fun thing to do is to load up two streetline specials with stick and shock and carry them in hidden arm slides/concealable holsters as a trump card. Stealthiest firearm available short of cyberguns and the raecor sting, yet you still get to pack a 6DV w/ AP and disorientation bonuses. The trick is not to fire them at the same time, but rather to fire one and then the other, handily bypassing the dicepool splitting AND the single shot nature of the firearm at the cost of a mild dicepool penalty to the offhand (and if you have ambidexterity that's no problem either). A couple of Defiance EX shockers is fun too.

Anyway though, if you really want a super effective but non-lethal stunrod, upping the DV isn't the answer. You'd be better served by modifying the threshold and duration of the incapacitation effect inflicted by electrical damage. Boosting the Will+Body test threshold from a 3 up to 5 or 6 would make it an incredibly hard test to make for anything short of a troll tank with appropriate armor mods to make. Frankly though, were I to GM I'd never let such a weapon within a city block of my table.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Broken. Stun weapons are too good already. 8S damage is nasty and far more effective than anything but elephant rifles (with XX) or HMGs.

...agreed. My Matrix Specialist has a Shock Hand and uses S&S Rounds. Took an Orc guard down way too easily with one S&S shot in the last session. It's the secondary effect which is really nasty for if they don't make that roll you basically have them down for the count. Hit 'em gain while they're helpless (with the shock hand) & it's "good night Irene". The only thing I can see a more powerful stun weapon for is taking down Trolls or other critters with a high body.

...one thing though I thought stun weapons were all pretty much 6S -1/2 impact armour. Which one is 8S?

[Edit - addendum]

@Whipstitch: Are you sure the DV stacks? We have been doing it as separate 6S attacks each of which have to be resisted independently. Still very nasty as a three round burst (or 4 if using a Fabuki) will put most people down & possibly even into overflow

I like the Streetline idea, Might have to go that route for the Short One (#60). Can't wait till the WW Infiltrator shows up again, that would be a real nice stealth weapon loaded with S&S.
Tarantula
This is roughly as overpowered as a troll with a bow.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Nov 24 2007, 02:41 PM)
@Whipstitch:  Are you sure the DV stacks?  We have been doing it as separate 6S attacks each of which have to be resisted independently.  Still very nasty as a three round burst (or 4 if using a Fabuki) will put most people down & possibly even into overflow 

If you mean "stacks" as in each bullet in the burst gets to deal 6DV, no. Stick and shock simply replaces the standard, unmodified damage value of the weapon and then the usual rules take it from there.

And yes, the ol' Cherry Blossom Storm is pretty sweet, but I rarely use it. I generally prefer the Hammerli 620S w/ stick and shock because it's the best light pistol for those with small dicepools. Easily concealed and it has a smartlink, heavy pistol range and a gas vent, which is pretty darn sweet; cracking off a shot and hoping you get lucky can be just as effective as using a Take Aim action due to the dice pool penalty for defending against previous attacks. Only thing that sucks about it is the small clip.
Kyoto Kid
...interesting, because the Hammerli is what Violet (#61) primarily uses for S&S as well. Yeah the small clip is the only weakness but the improved range & built in Smartlink (a steal for the price) makes up for it. Especially nice when you are the first one into a building because you had to spring the maglock.

She usually loads her Fabuki with EXEX for if she has to pull that, it means things are just got hairy; 8DV -1 AP, pretty rockin'.

...sweet kid. grinbig.gif
Narse
Is the Sakura Fubuki really a 4 round burst? I don't remember seeing that mentioned in the rules (yeah it has 4 barels, but I assumed that that was just some weirdness on the devs' parts) I assumed it had regular short burst lengths.

Edit: Oh, and to be on topic, this does seem a little overpowered. Defiance EX will take lots of stuff down, and or leave them majorly hurting. Anyone else notice that in its description it mentions contacts for meele combat, but is cheaper than the Stun Baton? (less than 1/2 price and better damage). KK: The Defiance EX Shocker is the taser that does 8S(e) -1/2.

Edit2: @Tarantula, I don't think its quite as overpowered as a Troll with a bow, augmented strength, injection arrows, narcoject, and DMSO (yeah its not out yet, but I'm eagerly expecting Arsenal.) This combination can easily yeild: 15P + 10S(Toxin), sure they get their full armor --- against the physical damage. Of course it does cost something like 100 nuyen.gif per round, but I expect you'll only need one.
Fortune
QUOTE (Narse)
Is the Sakura Fubuki really a 4 round burst? I don't remember seeing that mentioned in the rules (yeah it has 4 barels, but I assumed that that was just some weirdness on the devs' parts) I assumed it had regular short burst lengths.

No, it's similar to a mini Metalstorm weapon. It has four barrels, with 3 bullets loaded one behind the other in each barrel. When the gun is fired, one barrel shoots it's payload, consisting of a 3-round burst.
Narse
That's kinda what I thought. (tho I thought that perhaps it could use its vaunted electronic firing to fire 3 barrels at once, but I realized that it didn't really matter) Anyone who thought it fired 4 round bursts, I'd like to hear why you thought (or think) so.
Arashi
I personally don't like "Stick-n-shock" ammunition... Tiny Holdout bullets that have the same capacity to deliver electricity damage as a dedicated-by-design taser dart?

I am happy that none of my players have asked to purchase these rounds, but if they did I think I'd make them do a base damage of 1 less damage box than the original round but with electricity damage and armor as given.

YMMV ::shrugs::

Arashi
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Narse @ Nov 26 2007, 12:58 PM)
Is the Sakura Fubuki really a 4 round burst? I don't remember seeing that mentioned in the rules (yeah it has 4 barels, but I assumed that that was just some weirdness on the devs' parts) I assumed it had regular short burst lengths.

No, it's similar to a mini Metalstorm weapon. It has four barrels, with 3 bullets loaded one behind the other in each barrel. When the gun is fired, one barrel shoots it's payload, consisting of a 3-round burst.

I thought the description said 10 bullets per barrel x 4 barrels. [Ammo: 40(ml)]

We've been playing it as a four shot narrow burst, 1 round from each barrel.
DTFarstar
QUOTE (SR4 pg.307)
Yamaha Sakura Fubuki: The “Cherry-blossom Storm?
is the flagship for Yamaha’s new
line of electronic weapons that feature
no moving parts. Rather than
a standard magazine, the bullets
are stacked in-line in each of the
four barrels, allowing the firing of
ultra-fast short bursts. The Fubuki
may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst recoil is
handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each
Action Phase only). Includes an integral folding stock.


and

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 307 table at bottom)

Yamaha Sakura Fubuki 4P — SA/BF (1) 10 (ml) x 4 10R 2,000¥


No mention of four round bursting, and it holds 40 bullets so no 3 rounds per barrel thing.

Chris
Jaid
it does specify *short* bursts though, which are 3 round.

no indication is made that all bullets would be from one barrel or from 3 separate barrels.
Kyoto Kid
...basically that was where we were a bit confused at first & determined by it's configuration, that it must fire 4 rounds simultaneously, 1 from each of the stacked barrels (hence why you cannot do a wide burst with it).

Most of the RL metalstorm concepts I've seen employ a single barrel. If the Fabuki fired all the rounds for a burst from one barrel, there would be little little advantage gained from it's design. It would then do just as well to be a slightly beefier version version of something like the Fichetti Security but with the burst fire capability.

I think this topic came up a while back...

AH? Frank? Synner? Raygun? any thoughts on this?
Jaid
well, i'm out of here... no way am i sitting through DSF gun thread =P
Fortune
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Nov 27 2007, 04:42 AM)
I thought the description said 10 bullets per barrel x 4 barrels.  [Ammo: 40(ml)]

We've been playing it as a four shot narrow burst, 1 round from each barrel.

You're right about the ammo capacity. I don't know what the hell I was thinking of.

As for bursts though, I do believe that I'm correct about how they occur, with all 3 bullets fired metalstorm-like from one barrel, but I learned about that from Dumpshock, so take that as you may.
DTFarstar
To make it make a little sense from the perspective of having 4 barrels I believe I am going to go with it fires a round from each barrel in succession using the discharge from the previous barrel to jack the rounds from the previous barrel forward into the firing position. Using that mechanism to kill the recoil from each bullet and the time it take for this action is enough that it is necessary to have four barrels firing in succession instead of three.


*I would like to note that I know almost nothing about how anything but the absolute most basic parts of guns function so this is probably WILDLY improbable. I could completely pull it over on my group though, so until someone gives me a good explanation I'll go with mine.

Chris
Kyoto Kid
...Fabuki topic moved to new thread

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