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Stahlseele
if it's still like metalstorm, the rounds will still be shot by gas that is brought to expansion by electricity . . so either the EMP fucks up the electronics and it missfires, sending all of the bullets out of their barells as fast as possible(or faster) or nothing happens due to the gas not getting ignited by electricity . . i would not try such a spell, if one of those flower-guns was pointed in my general direction . .
Narse
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Nov 29 2007, 12:28 PM)
...
Also, mixing and matching in the Fubuki is no different from mixing and matching in a clip. You could FA from an Ares Alpha with every type of ammo in the book.

Uh, last time I checked, you could definitely NOT FA from an Alpha with every type of ammo. You could load only 1 type of ammo per clip, so unless you found a way to change clips mid-burst, you were out of luck. I was under the impression that this rule was to make calculating damage reasonably simple (base weapon + ammo mod + bust mod) with the same calculation for AP, how the heck you calculate the damage of a 10 round burst with 5 different types of ammo is a mystery to me.

EDIT: If this is a house rule, more power to you. I, however, like to keep my games relatively simple.
Kyoto Kid
...given the weapon's high cost and lack of a factory installed Smartlink, as a GM, I would certainly not penalise a character who has a Fubuki (spelled it right this time) any more by increasing the risk for a glitch.

If the ammo was so unique and specific to the weapon, then it should have it's own category on the Ammunition table. As it does not, then the normal ammo types apply. Yamaha, (or any other maker of a metalstorm weapon) would want to make sure that customers are satisfied for that translates into revenue.

The weapon would need to be reliable not only because of the price tag, but for continued sales. If Fubukis began blowing up in people's hands with seeming regularity, that would have a huge impact on the company's rep, The last thing a corp wants, especially if they sunk a lot of resources into R&D and marketing of a high-end product such as the Fubuki, is bad PR.

...and in Japan, bad PR means losing face.

QUOTE (Stahlseele)
so either the EMP fucks up the electronics and it missfires, sending all of the bullets out of their barells as fast as possible(or faster) or nothing happens due to the gas not getting ignited by electricity

...40 round narrow burst? That would be one nasty Pink Coud effect.
Stahlseele
basically, we're talking heavy duty ares viper sliver gun . . and with the kick it would give, it'd be absolutely reasonable in troll-size i'd say *g*
kigmatzomat
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
no, more like:"if this is the future in weapons-technology . . where's the long-arms with that stuff?" or similar things, like the real metal storm system built onto a smart plattform . . of rows of tubes easyly scaled for heavy weapons set-ups . . such things O.o

Metalstorm exists IRL. Why don't you hear about it being the next M16 or AK? The answer is recoil and weight.

Recoil from any rifle ammo becomes capable of inflicting injury on the shooter. A 3-round burst of 5.56 at ~1M/rpm from an M16-weight weapon would have the same experienced recoil as shooting a Barret .50BMG from a standing position. In other words, horrible.

So to keep the recoil something that isn't going to harm the shooter, the gun has to weigh a ton. Weight is the bane of soldiers. Plus the reloads can be a bit heavy and/or bulky.

The first Metalstorms required replacing the barrels (weighty steel) but the new ones use a simpler metal "clip" (not like a "magazine", more like wire paper clips) to hold the ammo together. This is lighter but it's still a long rigid tube that is harder to manage than a rectangular box.

So it's great for fixed positions, right? Well, not really. Since the widespread implementation of semi-automatic weapons, fixed positions are rarely overrun when they still have ammo. Sure, there were some charges in WWI but you compare that to the Blackhawk incident and a couple of soldiers can hold off a much larger force from a bunker until either the attackers brings in a heavy weapon or the defenders run out of ammo.

And Metalstorms run out of ammo. Fast.

Stahlseele
i'd more or less see metal storm as a smaller form of artillery to do wide-spread damage with . . or as an anti missle system . . basically filling the air with a lot of smaller explosives to blast things or put radar jammies in them . . and with metal storm, the REAL metal storm, ammo mix is a simple thing *g*
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (kigmatzomat)
And Metalstorms run out of ammo. Fast.

...only if the rules allow for it. Unfortunately it seems the Fubuki is still limited to the standard 3 round burst which gives it 14 actions (2 bursts per IP) to unload all it's ammo. That is (for a character with 2 IPs) 3.5 combat turns (10.5 seconds) yielding a rate of ~240 RPM (discounting reload time).

...the issue of designating an RPM rate is totally dependent on a character's IPs. For a character with only 1 IP it would take 7 combat turns (21 seconds, ~120 RPM) to totally unload the the weapon's ammo capacity.
GryMor
Metalstorm is being talked about as part of the 'next M16', though it's more likely only going to be used for the under barrel grenade launcher as opposed to the bullet slinger. Ammo is only an issue if you actually use the full fire rate (a problem with any fully automatic weapon), which the Fubuki doesn't seem to allow for.

Of course, for a Metalstorm based CIWS, that 'full fire rate' is millions of rounds per minute, in other words, less than a second worth of firing for the test modules I've seen videos of. The real goal of that fire rate is demonstrating precision. If you can get 10 thousand rounds on target in a fraction of a second, with the right sensors and control software you may be able to effectively interdict incoming weapons fire (missiles, rockets, mortar, artillery, main battery fire...).

Or you may make chunky salsa out of your crew as the robots decide to revolt. Fully electronically fired does have it's downsides.
MaxMahem
I think the easy answer for this is to simply disallow special ammo for this pistol. It is obviously unconventional compared to the other SR firearms, so I have no trouble simply stating as GM that special rounds simply haven't been developed for it. For that matter I have a hard time believing high-tech special rounds for light pistols even exits, the small cartridge size making it hard to fit any kind of payload in there (besides lead of course).
Karaden
Just a question for those who believe that the pistol simply fires 3 shots so fast that they all get out before any recoil can happen:

If the gun can fire three bullets so fast that it 1. doesn't have time to create recoil inbetween to mess up shots, and 2. is so fast that you can't move the gun even a fraction of an inch to spread out the fire. Why exactly can't it fire all 40 shots at once? Or since your restricting it to one barrel, the full barrel of 10 shots?

Seems to me that the gun firing one bullet from each barrel is the reason for the odd burst rules, which would mean 4 bullets. But hey, if you want me to unload the entier barrel of 10 instead, fine with me.

P.S. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but wanted to post since this first showed up, but my account only just got approved.
Stahlseele
'cause the rules say 3 bullets is a burst, everything more is full auto and the gun only does burst fire, if i remember correctly
Moon-Hawk
As far as metalstorm technology goes, there's really no reason it couldn't do that. Although, firing 40 bullets in a microsecond might get all the bullets out and gone before they're terribly affected by recoil, the person firing it is still going to have to deal with all that recoil eventually, and it'll probably break your arm. Thus, there are controls in place (which could be removed) that prevent you from doing anything stupid with it.
Second, I submit that there might need to be different rules for autofire in excess of 10 rounds, some kind of diminishing returns where after 10 rounds you only get an extra +1DV/(some number of bullets greater than 1)
Stahlseele
there will probably be the super machine guns again, once arsenal hits the streets . . in SR3 it was the same, once arsenal came out, there were weapons that could fire more than 10 bullets in full auto . . 15(minigun) and 18(aforementioned Super Machine Guns) . . one can only hope, that they give rules for the metal-storm-principle of the fabuki in there . .
Prime Mover
A true metal storm concept would allow any amount of fire from a single round to the entire contents of all loaded barrels. (a wireless command would work great for this) Due to fire rate and design a metal storm has very little recoil. I've always assumed the Fabuki's three round burst was in addition to a single round. Any beyond this would start building recoil. (One for second burst, negated by built in folding stock if used)

Interested to see how gatling and super machine guns are handled in Arsenal.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Karaden)
Just a question for those who believe that the pistol simply fires 3 shots so fast that they all get out before any recoil can happen:

If the gun can fire three bullets so fast that it 1. doesn't have time to create recoil inbetween to mess up shots, and 2. is so fast that you can't move the gun even a fraction of an inch to spread out the fire. Why exactly can't it fire all 40 shots at once? Or since your restricting it to one barrel, the full barrel of 10 shots?

Seems to me that the gun firing one bullet from each barrel is the reason for the odd burst rules, which would mean 4 bullets. But hey, if you want me to unload the entier barrel of 10 instead, fine with me.

P.S. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but wanted to post since this first showed up, but my account only just got approved.

As other people said, it was made to only shoot 3 at a time. I bet that rules for full auto with it or modifying it for that come out in arsenal.
Cardul
Someone used the logic of recoil and possibility of broken limbs as why it is 3 round bursts only. I can think of a better reason:

It does not come with a Smartlink built in, so this means it was built with the idea of it being able to be fired by trigger pulls, not smartlinked "thought" firing. The technologies for the gun spit out ammo very fast. If some limiter was not put in, it would be: Squeeze the trigger and watch all your ammo be gone. Limiting it to three round bursts extends the combat duration..and prevents you accidentally chunky salsaing someone you were shooting at with Gel rounds(Or electrocuting someone with Stick and Shocks, or fin red misting someone with ex plosive or ex-ex rounds).
Whipstitch
I really don't think that's a better reason. The gun doesn't fire through the mechanical action of a trigger pull at all; if any weapon is designed to take advantage of something like smartlink based firing it'd be the Fubuki. I imagine they'd still put a trigger on there since that's what many people have become accustomed to, but you could also really use just about any mechanism you wanted to. Smartlinks are also rather clever devices; I would think setting one to limit the number of rounds you fire per activation wouldn't be that tricky. Besides, aftermarket smartlinks work fine with the Fubuki; I doubt that there's any corp out there interested in releasing a bleeding edge weapon that doesn't work well with the defining aspect of modern firearms. The prevention of ammo dumps is definitely a good thing, but at the end of the day what we're really dealing with here is just the fallout from metagaming balance considerations. After all, a pistol with manageable recoil capable of firing full narrow bursts and no real drawbacks would be first on many a runner's shopping list, and I'm sure a lot of GMs would rather the rules be reasonable in the first place rather than have to disallow it.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
After all, a pistol with manageable recoil capable of firing full narrow bursts and no real drawbacks would be first on many a runner's shopping list...

...well it would be if it weren't so bloody expensive. Take a Ceska, put a GV 3 on it and along with the folding stock and you have just about as good (-4RC) at a lot less cost even with an internal smartlink. Because of it's nature it would make absolute sense to have a smartlink factory installed since, as Whipstitch mentions above, many of the accessory's features seem perfectly suited for a fully electronic weapon like Fubuki (yay, got it right this time).

other drawbacks include, I do not see a Fubuki being able to accept any Barrel mount accessories on because of it's design (so no sound suppression). It is also slower to reload, you just can't take a simple action to eject the clip and a second action to insert a new one (though I have to agree, other than the Super Warhawk, Hammerli, or PJSS, I have never had a character run out of ammo during a firefight) Finally just in looking at teh weapon's deign I would put it's conceal factor at that for a Machine Pistol (+2) and disallow using a hidden arm slide as it really does not have the same configuration as a conventional firearm and basically, is bulky.

Also, one more note on the fire rate. In previous editions, there were the HV combat guns that were capable of firing longer bursts (6 rounds) using light pistol ammo (which are no doubt going to reappear in Arsenal). I still do not see why the Fubuki couldn't be considered in this class already and be capable of a 4 round narrow burst. Hopefully the release of Arsenal will finally clear this up as I'm sure (or at least hoping) there will be other electronic fire weapons featured.

It is a hard choice: 1,700 nuyen.gif for an assault rifle capable of SA/BF/FA, 6DV/-1AP that has RC built in, an internal Smartlink, integrated grenade launcher or 2,000 :nuyen:for a Light Pistol capable of SA/BF 4DV/0AP, with no Smartlink.

Then again, maybe it's the Alpha that's a little too underpriced. Kind of like those 200 nuyen.gif Assault Cannons back in the first printing of 2nd ed. or the yacht for 17,000 in the first printing of 4th. grinbig.gif
Karaden
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Dec 26 2007, 04:41 PM)
Then again, maybe it's the Alpha that's a little too underpriced.  Kind of like those 200 nuyen.gif Assault Cannons back in the first printing of 2nd ed. or the yacht for 17,000 in the first printing of 4th. grinbig.gif

There is a yacht mentioned in 4th?

*edit*
Never mind, found it. Hehe, that had never really occured to me.
Whipstitch
When it comes to the Alpha and the Fubuki, I pick... neither!

I value affordability and concealability more than just about anything so my favorite weapons are the updates of ol' warhorses near and dear to any veteran runner's heart: paired Streetline Specials (stupidly powerful with stick and shock), the Ares Predator and the Ingram Smartgun X. To paraphrase the great Homer Simpson, such weapons are both the cause of and the solution to all of life's problems.
Whipstitch
Eew... I double posted there somehow. Anyway, the ability to dump an Ingram Smartgun X into a dumpster on your way out of a building if you have to and only be out 650 nuyen plus ammo costs is pretty damn nice.
Kyoto Kid
...save for my Matrix Specialist Violet (#80) who does have a Fubuki (she's an total technobrat with the Technomania quality) I tend to agree, the simpler the better. Carry an Alpha and your usually second on the geek list right behind the team's mage or LoneStar public enemy #1.

Yeah if the Short One (#81) had to dump both her Warhawks she'd be out a total of 700 (hers have laser sights as she has the Simsense Vertigo quality). I can definitely agree on a hold out or LP with S&S is just plain nasty. The Kid also has a Hammerli (for range) and a Streetline (her l'il "derringer"), both loaded with what she calls "lightnin' bullets".

On the other side again, there's my big game hunter Dr Z (#82) who has his trusty PJSS with EXEX but only uses it is when he needs extreme punching power to take them really tough critters (like Troll Mages) down.

...wow, three this post... grinbig.gif
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