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Kyoto Kid
...so as there seems to be differing opinion on the Yamaha Fabuki's burst rate, thought it best to create a separate thread to curtail further derailing the Guaranteed takedown stunrods thread.

Basically the position my gaming group and I come from is the 4 barrel configuration of the weapon, the fact that it can only do a narrow burst, and lack of recoil makes total sense that it fires a single round from each of the stacked barrels thus giving it a 4 round burst. If it fired the entire burst from only one barrel there would be no reason for the odd design as well as the high cost (roughly 8 - 10 times that of a regular pistol).
Spike
I find the entire pistol to be laughable in description.



Oh, you wanted opinion. Um... is a narrow burst limited to 3 rounds? Damn this newfangled terminology... Narrow, wide... I'll get back to you after I read the damn autofire rules again....


DTFarstar
QUOTE (ME!)
To make it make a little sense from the perspective of having 4 barrels I believe I am going to go with it fires a round from each barrel in succession using the discharge from the previous barrel to jack the rounds from the previous barrel forward into the firing position. Using that mechanism to kill the recoil from each bullet and the time it take for this action is enough that it is necessary to have four barrels firing in succession instead of three.


*I would like to note that I know almost nothing about how anything but the absolute most basic parts of guns function so this is probably WILDLY improbable. I could completely pull it over on my group though, so until someone gives me a good explanation I'll go with mine.

Chris


Quoting myself from the thread we were derailing. Gotta say, though this is more a problem with S&S ammo than this gun, I guess, it does make it an insanely good S&S gun if you give it a 4 round short burst. By the by, I agree that it makes more sense your way, but with the munchkiny bastards in my group they already love this pistol for it's half size recoil so making it even better would be a bad idea for me. But having it fire as though semi auto and do what... 9S vs half impact armor? is badass. course 8S vs it for semi-auto is really awesome too so again, more a problem with S&S ammo.

Chris
kigmatzomat
The "Cherry Blossom Storm" is based on Metalstorm tech. It makes the "Fields of Fire" supermachine guns look like bolt action rifles. Metalstorms can fire up to 1,000,000 rounds per minute. Well, it's more appropriate to say they can fire 1000 rounds in 1/10,000 of a second.

There's no point in the barrels firing in concert; you could fire a half dozen rounds in only slightly longer time than it would take a single round to pass through the barrel.

The only problem with the Fubuki is that the recoil limits it to light pistol ammo as for all intents and purposes you are firing three rounds at once. A triple-barreled .22 has about the same recoil as a 9mm. A triple barreled 9mm would be like firing a .44 magnum. Worse, if the gun weighs less than a .44.
Falconer
My take is that you pick a barrel when it's fired. It doesn't have an internal smartgun (and at 4000 for internal smartgun that's a little steep). So picking and choosing which round out of which barrel to fire is probably a little much.

EG: you could have 10 rounds of flechette, 10 rounds of SnS, 10 rounds of APDS, 10rds of whatever loaded at the same time. Then you don't need to use a reload action to change. Only the free action to change fire mode and pick a barrel. (think how much longer it takes to change mags on the fly)

On the flipside, due to it's very unique ammo requirements, finding reload barrels could be a real bitch, especially for specialty ammos. Also, unlike a normal gun, you can't eject the mag, top it off and put it back, so that's another drawback. If I was a heavy user I'd probably be looking at armorer ranks so I could do my own handloaded reloads. Again, I think the biggest drawback to this gun is it's unique (so it stands out), and it's wierd ammo requirements.

I also don't see where anyone is getting more than a 3rd burst... wide bursts and long bursts are only available to FA weapons. BF only gives access to 3rd bursts according to the combat section. Even then, don't think it's a good idea, this looks to be a top-flight weapon already (it's the only highly concealable light pistol with burst fire... so there's almost no contest there). The only way to do a 4rd burst by SR4 rules would be long burst w/o enough ammo, since the gun isn't FA that is right out.
Kyoto Kid
... to slightly [derail] my own thread for a moment...

@DTFArstar As I understand (and the way we play it) each S&S round is a separate 6(s) attack each instead of increasing the DV by "x" number of rounds. As the damage is "fixed" (& replaces the normal DV of the weapon) We also do not increase S&S DV by net hits.

[/derail]

As I mentioned it is too odd a design to function like a normal pistol. why would anyone use one if you just could get a Super Warhawk & load it with EXEX (7DV -3AP) for about 1/8th the cost?. There needs to be some advantage to having this weapon given its cost, especially when pistols like the Savalette Guardian (which I imagine will be "re-introduced" in Arsenal) are available.

The Fabuki also has several drawbacks the first & foremost of which (as I mentioned above) being the initial cost, particularly if you want it internally smartlinked. The second is that I really see no way to use a silencer or suppression, again due to its unique design. So it really doesn't make a good stealth weapon like say a Hammerli or a Fichetti. The third issue is it's reload rate, you just can't slap a new clip into it & go. The one advantage I see is the ability to do a 4 round burst with little or no recoil.
Jaid
actually, you can reload 10 bullets at a time... the reload action gives you 1 barrel for muzzle loaded, which is 10 bullets in a fubuki.

the fact that you can have 4 different types of ammo and choose which one to fire at any given time (if you smartlink it) is pretty danged cool imo.
Kyoto Kid
...I am aware of the reload mechanics, however, it would still take a character with say a 4 - 5 Agility a full IP to swap out all four barrels when empty. With clip loaded weapons, I believe it is a free action to eject (using a smartlink of course) and simple action so slap a new one in so you could conceivably still get a shot or burst off in the same IP

If the weapon indeed fires only the standard 3 round burst, what they should have done was make the barrel capacity a multiple of 3 (9 or 12 rounds per barrel) so you don't get that leftover single round, especially if you do load a barrel or two with different types of ammo as Jaid mentioned above. Even given the ability to use mixed ammo types, it would take a bit more to justify the weapon's high purchase cost.
JBlades
QUOTE (Falconer)
I also don't see where anyone is getting more than a 3rd burst... wide bursts and long bursts are only available to FA weapons. BF only gives access to 3rd bursts according to the combat section. Even then, don't think it's a good idea, this looks to be a top-flight weapon already (it's the only highly concealable light pistol with burst fire... so there's almost no contest there). The only way to do a 4rd burst by SR4 rules would be long burst w/o enough ammo, since the gun isn't FA that is right out.

Good question! We're not seeing anything in text that explicitly says "4 round burst". What we are seeing is text and a picture that shows 4 barrels stacked one on top of the other and a unique firing system. Add to that the fact that it fires bursts but has unique recoil rules.

Why would the recoil rules be anything but standard if the burst worked like any other weapon? All other weapons fire 3 rounds from a single barrel and that counts as +3 recoil, but this one doesn't. It fires a burst and that only counts as +1. Also, other weapons fire 3 rounds and the burst can be wide or narrow, but this burst can only be narrow. Again, why?

The only logical reason that the recoil would be less and the burst can only be narrow on a weapon with 4 barrels stacked on top of each other is if you were not firing all the bullets out of 1 barrel, but rather 1 bullet each out of each of the 4 barrels.

Since all the bullets fire simultaneously, the burst can't be wide. There's no time to move the gun in between rounds to describe an arc.

The recoil from the bottom barrel would somewhat mitigate the recoil from the top barrel, causing a more straight back recoil than most guns, hence less recoil modifier. (All recoil is, in fact, straight back to start with in direct opposite to the gas flowing out of the front of the gun, but because of hand position it takes the path of least resistance and goes upward, but that's a whole other conversation...)

But there aren't three barrels, which you would expect to see if it were a standard three round burst, there are four. So it must be a four round burst. Why would it be designed any other way?
DTFarstar
Because the gun guys that do SR4 have the same kind of crazy logic trains I did in my above post explaining the way the gun functions in my games?

Chris
GryMor
Metalstorm weapons are electronically triggered and don't have moving parts. They can fire each bullet in sequence at the precise moment the barrel ceases to be obstructed by the earlier bullet. The timescale of when this happens is MUCH smaller than the timescale of meaningful recoil deflection, and manual compensation. Since the deflection doesn't stack up, it can effectively be treated as one large caliber bullet, which in the granularity of SR4, is still just one bullet.
DTFarstar
My point was that while I didn't think my explanation was close to correct if a weapon WAS designed like this in the real world, the game designers could have easily had some sort of crazy logic train like that because they obviously only know marginally more about weapons than I do, if any. So, without changing certain game mechanics, or breaking the logical continuity of the weapon, it is best just not to think about it too hard or go with something like I have. Just because it sounds like MetalStorm doesn't mean that it is exactly like a metalstorm weapon. Keeping in mind, we are dealing with weapons designed to be able to regularly, reliably, and easily fire two 3 round bursts every .75 seconds.

Chris
Falconer
Again, I see this as a misapplying of the way the gun operates.

I similarly don't see any reason if you did smartlink the gun, you couldn't eject an empty barrel w/ a thought the same way as you eject a (nearly) empty mag. Or with a smartlink if you had two barrels loaded w/ APDS, fire 1 out of one, and 2 out of the next one... replace the empty barrel later at your convenience. But I'd limit that kind of barrel mix and matching to an internal smartlinked gun. (they paid 4000 for it, they might as well get their moneys worth).

It's pretty clear that game wise it would have to fire 3 rounds from 1 barrel. You could consider it to ripple fire but that brings up a different problem. You can't 'mix' ammo in a burst... how the hell are you going to resolve 1round of APDS, 1 round of gel, 1 round of flechette firing in a 3rd burst? I don't even want to start going there... if you make special rules for it... why can't my SMG packing gun adept preload clips w/ ammo mixes as well? (slippery slope)


It's clearly similar to the metalstorm type weapons. (which came first... doesn't matter). The metalstorms use an electronic firing system and can attain some rediculously high 'cyclical rates' because they contain no moving parts. I see no reason it couldn't in scifi fire 3 rounds off before the forces start to push off your point of aim. (same way I don't see a reason outside it's fluff that it couldn't electronically fire slower for a wide burst). But the gun is pretty buff as is. I don't see why the objections to the metalstorm explanation either. (normally the argument is, but tech isn't quite that advanced in shadowrun... but here we have todays tech which can already pull this kind of thing off).


As far as the muzzle climb vector... the barrels are down low, the axis of the barrels isn't above the hand holding the grip. So they'd push straight back into the fist, there'd be little to no rotational vector on the recoil. Similarly, the reason most people have issues w/ large bore pistols isn't because of the pistols recoil, but because THEY ANTICIPATE and try to precompensate for the recoil while still pulling the trigger. (IE: it's not a problem w/ the gun but the user). Most people don't realize that the bullets already left the barrel before the muzzle flip occurs (or the little bit which happens is already accounted for in the sights as it's highly repeatable).

It's got the best concealability modifier as a light pistol. It's the only thing that small which can burst fire. SnS has the unique aspect of replacing it's weak damage code w/ a much more solid 6s/half, which is more a problem of the ammo than the gun. GM's could make this less of a problem just by making SnS ammo a complete and utter bitch to find or by house ruling SnS ammo (keep weapon damage code, but get half-impact is still pretty good).
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
Keeping in mind, we are dealing with weapons designed to be able to regularly, reliably, and easily fire two 3 round bursts every .75 seconds.

Note that is is actually a very low rate of fire. Only around 8 rounds a second (480 rounds a minute). Most machine pistols have a rate of rife in the 900-1300 rounds a minute range, due to the lightness of the bolt. It is well within the capabilities of metalstorm type weapons to fire the full 40 rounds in a single simple action (a ROF of around 6400 rpm).

Whipstitch
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Nov 26 2007, 09:26 PM)
If the weapon indeed fires only the standard 3 round burst, what they should have done was make the barrel capacity a multiple of 3 (9 or 12 rounds per barrel) so you don't get that leftover single round.

Hey now, that leftover can still kill people! biggrin.gif

SR firearms transition seamlessly from burstfire to semi-automatic in the event that you no longer have enough ammunition to fire off a standard burst; the Fubuki's best-in-its-class ammo capacity is just gravy, and shooting a guy just once per action beats not shooting them at all. My own group has always just assumed that a smartlinked Fubuki is clever enough to fire off whatever combination of barrels is required to meet the current user requirements and then the last shot will result in a single round being fired in lieu of a burst. It's a bit more complicated if you allow for mixed ammunition types per barrel (something we've never bothered with) or skip the smartlink, but even then it's just a simple matter of tracking 3 bursts and a single shot per barrel.
JBlades
So those of you who are saying it's a 3 round burst are contending that the gun uses a totally unique form of firing mechanism, loading mechanism and has unique recoil rules all to do exactly the same thing that every other gun does, and that the only reason it has 4 barrels is because they thought that looked neat? Just so I understand...
JBlades
I also don't see why anyone would possibly pay 4 times the cost of any other light pistol for the exact same thing any burst fire weapon could do. Just buy a Steyr TMP. Hell, buy two and take the wife out for dinner for the next month.
Narse
The Fubuki, if it fires 3 round bursts is not just any ol' burst fire weapon. In case you hadn't noticed, it is a Light Pistol and therefore is way more concealable than a machine pistol (on the order of 4 dice for perception), AND has less recoil than said machine pistols while maintaining the same damage.

QUOTE (Falconer)
You can't 'mix' ammo in a burst... how the hell are you going to resolve 1round of APDS, 1 round of gel, 1 round of flechette firing in a 3rd burst?

by not letting players load different ammo into the different barrels. Sure it doesn't make sense, but neither does forcing the same ammo in one clip, the purpose is to make life easy for those of us resolving the action.

Oh, and KK, your game is your game, your rules work for you and I wouldn't dream of telling someone how to play the game (unless I'm GMing for them, but thats different), but I am shuddering imagining a poor sec guard making 64 resistance tests in 3 seconds of game world time ( 2 tests/SnS round * 4 SnS rounds/burst * 2 bursts/IP * 4IPs = 64). True only 32 of them are damage resistance, but the other half are to avoid incapacitation, of course making all those tests to avoid loss of consciousness/actions is another story....

{waits for Troll Tank spin off thread cyber.gif }
Stahlseele
QUOTE
{waits for Troll Tank spin off thread  }

*rolls wilpower to resist* 3 successes!
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Falconer)
My take is that you pick a barrel when it's fired.
. . . . .
EG: you could have 10 rounds of flechette, 10 rounds of SnS, 10 rounds of APDS, 10rds of whatever loaded at the same time. Then you don't need to use a reload action to change. Only the free action to change fire mode and pick a barrel. (think how much longer it takes to change mags on the fly)

This is my take, exactly.
The bursts make it, essentially, a very concealable pistol that has damage/recoil of a heavy pistol, which can be loaded with up to four different ammo types, which makes it a superb walking-around-gun. Whether you find yourself up against drones, a coked-up troll, or just some crazy slitch, you've already got the perfect ammo for the job loaded and ready, and it's all in one convenient little package.

The reason it only fires short bursts and the reason those bursts have reduced recoil is because, as others have said, metalstorm-style weapons have insanely high rates of fire.

The only thing that I find particularly odd about the weapon is that it only fires three round bursts, and yet the barrels hold 10 bullets. Not 9, not 12, but 10!?
Critias
It's like the old gripe about hot dog packages versus hot dog bun packages.

If the two numbers don't mesh up, the company knows you can't help but come back and buy more. It's brilliance on their part, NOT an oversight!
DTFarstar
But... but.... they are bullets! You are going to buy more either way!

Chris
Ol' Scratch
Flavor Description: Fires four bullets simultaneously.
Game Resolution: Same as a three-round burst for purposes of damage, resistance, and everything else excluding recoil (which has a special exclusion as described in the text) and that you subtract four bullets from the clip instead of three per shot.

Consider the extra bullet per shot the "cost" of the other advantages the weapon has.
Adarael
That's exactly what I've always done, too.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (JBlades @ Nov 27 2007, 02:06 AM)
the only reason it has 4 barrels is because they thought that looked neat? Just so I understand...

No, that'd be stupid. Space is valuable; they added a fourth barrel because it added to the amount of ammo available and apparently adding to the depth of the weapon was seen as less painful than adding to the length of each barrel. And it does have a semi-automatic mode, you know. Even without burstfire it has the highest ammo capacity available in a weapon of that size.

Anyway, I'd like the idea of upping the operating costs of owning a Fubuki better if it weren't for the fact that a Fubuki with an internal smartlink isn't that much less expensive than a complete HK XM30 modular weapons platform. Even a vanilla Fubuki with or without an external smartlink is pricier than an Ares Alpha. It's the most powerful weapon in its class, but go up one class higher and you get affordability, superior range and better AP. Fubuki's are neat toys, but nine times out of ten I buy a Hammerli 620S, Predator IV or AVS instead.
Kyoto Kid
...well it is interesting to see the various interpretations. I will not say that in our campaign we are doing it right which is why I put the question out. However I am seeing two different views here, that support either the 4 or 3 round burst. I will admit I know little about the finer details of ballistics even though I have fired a number of different weapons.

Both DTFarstar & JBlades had the best explanation I saw for the odd configuration & recoil. They still supported still the single bullet from all four barrels which is the way we have been playing it.

I feel Whipstitch put it best when talking about the cost vs. other weapons. The fact a Fabuki is more expensive than the Alpha (which is by far the best firearm in the game) makes me wonder about what the entire purpose of the Fabuki is other than just a flashy bang bang toy. Somehow I feel there needs to be more to justify the its high price than just the ability to do burst fire. When Arsenal (finally) comes out I am sure the Savalette Guardian will make it's return to the lineup which would be a much better deal (5DV + burst for 7DV with better range at a price of probably around 750 - 800 nuyen.gif with internal Smartlink included).

BTW, my Matrix Specialist does have a Smartlinked Fabuki and interestingly enough does not have it loaded with S&S (personally I find that a bit too "munchy" myself as well as a drain on the ammo budget).
Fortune
Not every weapon has to be equivalent in price and value. It might well just be that the Fabuki is newfangled tech, or the latest fad, and that arbitrarily inflates the price.

I mean, look at the Ares Predator, which is among the best heavy pistols in the game, coming standard with the latest Smartlink tech, at an insane bargain basement price, probably because there is a large amount of them available that brings the cost down.
Kyoto Kid
...I would still think considering it is a high-techy electronic weapon and all, at the very least you would think it would come with an integrated smartlink included.
Whipstitch
Yeah, I'm fine with the price from a fluff and mechanics perspective. It's a flagship product intended to represent a new wave of consumer sidearms and it's indisputably the most powerful weapon in its class. I believe the high price is appropriate but I also don't want to see the operating cost skew any higher on top of that. YMMV.
Fortune
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...I would still think considering it is a high-techy electronic weapon and all, at the very least you would think it would come with an integrated smartlink included.

I agree with that. It should come standard with the most up-to-date tech, and possibly even with ceramic components.
Tarantula
I'll throw in my 2¥ and say that I always saw it as 3 rounds from the same barrel, with up to 4 ammo types loaded at once (one in each barrel).

Edit: As far as the troll tank spinoff goes, he soaks it, without even blinking. He didn't even notice someone was shooting at him.
JBlades
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Flavor Description: Fires four bullets simultaneously.
Game Resolution: Same as a three-round burst for purposes of damage, resistance, and everything else excluding recoil (which has a special exclusion as described in the text) and that you subtract four bullets from the clip instead of three per shot.

Consider the extra bullet per shot the "cost" of the other advantages the weapon has.

That's actually a pretty good idea, Doc. I could see that as a good compromise. Narse makes some good points, too, about it being highly concealable and matching up well with a machine pistol. Lots to think about. biggrin.gif
Tarantula
Doc's compromise I see as a problem because then the mechanics (+1DV per bullet fired) don't match up to the ammo count used. I realize that it has some special rules (special recoil, only narrow) but theres nothing that says it has special rules about bullets in a burst.

Maybe some special rules for it will be out in arsenal, perhaps even allowing full auto with it (full 10 round tube).
JBlades
That's what makes it a compromise, Tarantula, the fact that the fluff and rules do not quite match...
Stahlseele
i'm more thinking along the lines:"if this is only the flaggship of the series . . where's the rest of it?"
Adarael
"Development hell."
Ol' Scratch
See all those top-of-the-line firearms in the book, such as the Ares Alpha. Fabuki makes a very similar model. Exact same stats, in fact, even if the look and fluff might be a bit different. But to save space in the book, they only put one brand name for each "type" of weapon.

So there's plenty other models in the series. They just don't have a brand name in the book is all. Kind of like how the Ford Americar didn't just disappear off the face of the planet; it's covered by the Mercuery Comet.
Stahlseele
no, more like:"if this is the future in weapons-technology . . where's the long-arms with that stuff?" or similar things, like the real metal storm system built onto a smart plattform . . of rows of tubes easyly scaled for heavy weapons set-ups . . such things O.o
Kyoto Kid
...technically, the name of the weapon should be the Sakura Arashi (桜?) as Arashi translates to storm or tempest. Fabuki has no literal meaning.

Of course one of the models that didn't fare well in testing was the Sake Arashi (酒?) which was targeted towards the drunken master gunbunny market. grinbig.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
no, more like:"if this is the future in weapons-technology . . where's the long-arms with that stuff?" or similar things, like the real metal storm system built onto a smart plattform . . of rows of tubes easyly scaled for heavy weapons set-ups . . such things O.o

"Flavor text here. Blah blah blah. Yak yak yak. Addenum: Treat as an Ares Alpha for purposes of game mechanics."

Amazing! Why, it even makes sense. Know that recoil compensation the Alpha has? Dun dun da dun, that's a reflection of the Metal Storm la-ti-da of the Fabuki Whateveryouwannacallit, whereas Ares uses a different technology to produce a strikingly similar effect.

Doubly amazing!
klinktastic
What is the general consensus on SnS for the Fabuki? Does the burst fire affect the damage value?
Ol' Scratch
Why would it be any different than any other automatic weapon? All it does is spit its ammo out at the same time with one big SPIT rather than three rapid spit-spit-spits. That's all.
Tarantula
Indeed. Treat it the same as you would any other burst fired SnS.
Eurotroll
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...technically, the name of the weapon should be the Sakura Arashi (桜?) as Arashi translates to storm or tempest. Fabuki has no literal meaning.

Of course one of the models that didn't fare well in testing was the Sake Arashi (酒?) which was targeted towards the drunken master gunbunny market. grinbig.gif

Well, of course "Fabuki" doesn't mean anything. And that's precisely because you keep spelling it Fabuki. biggrin.gif

It's Fubuki! Fu as in, a Japanese evil maniacs laughter. Fubuki as in, ?雪. Which means, incidentally, snowstorm. So it's more of a cherry-blossom blizzard, really.

[/japanese nitpicking] nyahnyah.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Eurotroll)
Well, of course "Fabuki" doesn't mean anything. And that's precisely because you keep spelling it Fabuki. biggrin.gif

...dyslexics and foreign languages, never a good combination. grinbig.gif

QUOTE (Eurotroll)
Fubuki as in, ?雪. Which means, incidentally, snowstorm. So it's more of a cherry-blossom blizzard, really.

...sounds like something they'd serve up at DQ. grinbig.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Eurotroll)
Fubuki as in, ?雪. Which means, incidentally, snowstorm. So it's more of a cherry-blossom blizzard, really.

...sounds like something they'd serve up at DQ. grinbig.gif

Will excite your taste buds at rates up to 1,000,000 flavor explosions per minute!
Kyoto Kid
... but is that in 3 or 4 flavour explosion bursts per spoonful? grinbig.gif
X-Kalibur
dear god you guys are fired for the terrible jokes, haha. I've treated the rulings on the Fubuki the same way Doc does. It fires 1 round from each barrel but because of the smaller caliber round the effect is that of a 3 round burst. To extend it further than that, due to the (likely) electronic firing mechanism it must have specialty rounds have to be custom made and increase the likelyhood of a glitch.

Also, mixing and matching in the Fubuki is no different from mixing and matching in a clip. You could FA from an Ares Alpha with every type of ammo in the book.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
To extend it further than that, due to the (likely) electronic firing mechanism it must have specialty rounds have to be custom made and increase the likelihood of a glitch.

...did you mean "it must have specialty rounds have to be custom made or increase the likelihood of a glitch?
X-Kalibur
No, and is the word I wanted. The ammunition for the fubuki is very specific and short of an astounding success on an armorer roll to make said rounds, I would have it increase the likelyhood of a glitch.

For even more fun, if your players are really fond of the fubuki have a mage drop their EMP spell and watch those electronically fired rounds fail wink.gif
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