Spinning off from the various threads about how trolls are big but they still use the same gear as puny hoomans, I'm thinking about the Full-Borg weapons that CP2020 had. Basically, weapons that were too nasty to be used by any human arm, but that big, scary cyborgs could use. I never played CP2020 (why have hamburger when you can have steak?), but I had a habit of picking up the supplements for it on the theory everything is useful for conversion purposes. 'Borg weapons come from something called Blackhand's Street Weapons 2020. Several do damage to non-cybered arms that try to fire them, others are just big. One is a 15mm "SMG", another is the Hellbringer .666 Magnum.
I mean, its a neat idea. And if you consider that either cybernetic or troll arms (or cybernetic troll arms, for that matter) exist in SR, it seems like people would make weapons specifically for them. (CP also has weapons specifically designed to take down 'borgs, which would be the type of weapons you'd want to take down trolls.)
An easier way is just to consider weapons modified for trolls to be lighter weapons in their hands. A troll-modified Heavy Pistol is basically a Hold-Out to them. Trolls should probably get a concealability bonus right off the bat. A troll-mod Shotgun is used a lot like a Heavy Pistol, a troll-mod AR is a Machine Pistol, an LMG becomes an SMG, and a HMG becomes an AR. That might be pushing it a little, but its what I'm picking for my jumping off point. Likewise, trolls might get a bonus to recoil to represent the have four times the mass of a normal human, or they might not double the recoil penalties for Heavy Weapons. This might exacerbate the problem of trolls as combat monsters, but hey, they're already monstrous. Personally, I can see a guy who's 3 meters tall and 350 kilos using a .50cal like an Assault Rifle, but if thats a bridge too far we can knock it down to one class. (HMG's become MMG's, LMG's become AR's, AR's become SMG's and so on.) Troll-modding weapons doesn't just mean making the handles bigger, it can mean fundamentally changing how the weapon is used.
Well, that's guns, but it stands to reason that other weapons would be similarly nasty. A Combat Axe might be used like a hatchet. This is getting periously close the TWSNBN, but I'm willing to cautiously explore it. A throwing knife that fits comfortably in the hands of a troll is going to be bigger than one used by a human, its not going to be the same sized blade on a huge handle. It stands to reason that such a blade would do more damage when it pierces someone-- now, is that just going to be a function of the troll's higher strength, or should the weapon itself do more?
I haven't even begun to think about game balance yet, which is not to say I won't. But for right now, let's think about what sort of weapons trolls would use if they really are as big as the system says they are, and worry about balance later.
Full Version: Troll Weapons
"No offense, miss, but that weapon would've broken your back the first time you fired it."
"Because I'm a girl?"
"No. Because it's designed for use by people with two backup spines."
"Because I'm a girl?"
"No. Because it's designed for use by people with two backup spines."
Well theres no need to really mod the melee weapons to much as they take body mass into account (via the STR/2 part of the damage code)
As for fire arms a first step would be Strength/Body based recoil modifiers followed by some rules on using long weapons in one hand (non of this DnD style increasing damage and calling it the same thing)
The main difficulty would be would be working out how to scale up weapons do we just make a bigger calliber pistol for trolls or do we do something else with the extra space (like bigger ammo capacities or longer barrell lengths), part of me thinks that it woould depend on weather the reason for the upscaling was mechaniclly driven or setting driven.
Mechanically driven -
Trolls can use a HMG like i would use an assault rifle (once the grip/trigger mechanism and stock have been adjusted). A troll heavy pistol uses .50 (or other silly size) rounds for a base damage of 6p/-2 (a WAG no flamming please)
Setting driven -
Ares breaks into the troll market with the Hercules mk1, a varient of the Predator modded for trolls, to keep R&D costs down it uses the same mechanisms but uses a 50 round box mag in the (much larger) pistol grip and has a longer barrell (upping range a bit) they also built up the casing so it dosnt look like a troll holding a toy.
Ingram could release a troll modified HMGs, which would have the obligatory modified grip/trigger mechanisms but would drop the bipods and replace with an underbarrell grenade launcher and include a sturdy mounting point for top mounted scopes and the like. (I know that they come with a top mount as per BBB but how many real woorld HMGs come with one?)
As for fire arms a first step would be Strength/Body based recoil modifiers followed by some rules on using long weapons in one hand (non of this DnD style increasing damage and calling it the same thing)
The main difficulty would be would be working out how to scale up weapons do we just make a bigger calliber pistol for trolls or do we do something else with the extra space (like bigger ammo capacities or longer barrell lengths), part of me thinks that it woould depend on weather the reason for the upscaling was mechaniclly driven or setting driven.
Mechanically driven -
Trolls can use a HMG like i would use an assault rifle (once the grip/trigger mechanism and stock have been adjusted). A troll heavy pistol uses .50 (or other silly size) rounds for a base damage of 6p/-2 (a WAG no flamming please)
Setting driven -
Ares breaks into the troll market with the Hercules mk1, a varient of the Predator modded for trolls, to keep R&D costs down it uses the same mechanisms but uses a 50 round box mag in the (much larger) pistol grip and has a longer barrell (upping range a bit) they also built up the casing so it dosnt look like a troll holding a toy.
Ingram could release a troll modified HMGs, which would have the obligatory modified grip/trigger mechanisms but would drop the bipods and replace with an underbarrell grenade launcher and include a sturdy mounting point for top mounted scopes and the like. (I know that they come with a top mount as per BBB but how many real woorld HMGs come with one?)
| QUOTE (Ustio) |
| I know that they come with a top mount as per BBB but how many real woorld HMGs come with one? |
Look at pictures from Iraq or Afghanistan - it's actually common for .50BMG HMGs (and even more common for 5.56 and 7.62 MGs) and automatic grenade launchers to have scopes or other optics installed.
After all, if a gun is built to be used beyond 500m range you should be able to properly aim it...
| QUOTE (Ustio) |
| Well theres no need to really mod the melee weapons to much as they take body mass into account (via the STR/2 part of the damage code) |
Well, that's not entirely so, they just take the STR score into account. You can have a troll with a 3 STR and a human with a 9, the damage is just about how hard their hitting, not so much what they're hitting with.
Let's say that a troll uses a combat axe like a hatchet, could he throw a combat axe like a hatchet? If a "troll-modified" throwing knife is about the size of a machete, should it use that damage code (say STR/2+2 rather than STR/2)? Aside from the balance issues of giving the guys with the highest strength the most damaging weapons (and I'm still not that concerned with balance, since this is all theoretical), why wouldn't that work?
| QUOTE |
| Aside from the balance issues |
Balance issues really are the only problem. Realistically, there's no reason that trolls shouldn't sport heavier weaponry (ork to a slight degree could benefit here too). However, it is in the game balance areas that such a change would have dramatic effects.
Sadly, in almost every RPG I've played, a combat bonus is hard to balance with a non-combat penalty, so it's best to counter these added perks with relevant disadvantages. The most basic might be giving a Troll a -1 or -2 dice modifier to all rolls to avoid being hit (Reaction, parry, dodge, etc.) since it should certainly be easier to hit a troll-sized target than a human-sized one.
A more extreme one is to consider that Strength and mass don't necessarily increase in proportion to one another. This means that trolls might get restrictions similar to elephants that reduce running speeds and virtually eliminate jumping. Climbing might be penalized, too.
Or you could just increase the cost of the troll metatype, but that's a rather unsatifactory answer - if you're going to go 'scientific' in adding bonuses, then apply that to penalties as well.
| QUOTE |
| You can have a troll with a 3 STR |
how?
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) | ||
how? |
non-customised cyberlimbs, i assume
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) | ||
how? |
Troll with normal strength under the influence of a Decrease Strength spell.
I see the only real difficulty here is how Shadowrun handles damage and combat in general.
Scaling up damage in Cyberpunk was easier as the range of potential was wider, and the ability to resist it generally smaller. An ordinary person could be capped by a light pistol with shocking ease, upgrading to an assault rifle didn't mean necessarily instant death to all before you, but DID make the character measurably more dangerous, and cyborg/anti-cyborg weapons were overkill against most targets.
In Shadowrun the light pistol is a joke that even grandma can laugh at, and the difference between an assault rifle and a rocket launcher is a few pips... where do you squeeze the damage codes of 'extra crunchy' weapons?
Now: An extra large predator that does the same damage? that's something I'd expect to see, just because it is easy to build even now, and mechanically requires little work to integrate, though good luck keeping munchikens from trying to take it just for the extra ammo capacity and range (if you have that...).
Of course, given the position trolls are in now (seriously, when was the last time people talked about casually dealing with a troll short of anti-tank weaponry? Ditto since the new armor encumberance means they can wear more armor than most other players without penality) do we really want them to have even more 'troll only cooler toys'? I mean Troll Bow....seriously.
Scaling up damage in Cyberpunk was easier as the range of potential was wider, and the ability to resist it generally smaller. An ordinary person could be capped by a light pistol with shocking ease, upgrading to an assault rifle didn't mean necessarily instant death to all before you, but DID make the character measurably more dangerous, and cyborg/anti-cyborg weapons were overkill against most targets.
In Shadowrun the light pistol is a joke that even grandma can laugh at, and the difference between an assault rifle and a rocket launcher is a few pips... where do you squeeze the damage codes of 'extra crunchy' weapons?
Now: An extra large predator that does the same damage? that's something I'd expect to see, just because it is easy to build even now, and mechanically requires little work to integrate, though good luck keeping munchikens from trying to take it just for the extra ammo capacity and range (if you have that...).
Of course, given the position trolls are in now (seriously, when was the last time people talked about casually dealing with a troll short of anti-tank weaponry? Ditto since the new armor encumberance means they can wear more armor than most other players without penality) do we really want them to have even more 'troll only cooler toys'? I mean Troll Bow....seriously.
Magic and Gamma Scopolamine and other Trolls with Bows/Close Combat/heavy/automatic weapons go a long way *g*
Troll with a STR 3, brain fart. (My brain ate a lot of fatty thoughts over the holiday.) A better example would have been STR 5 Troll and a STR 5 Human, to ask if trolls should get a size bonus to damage independent of their STR.
@HappyDaze: It should be easier to hit a troll-sized target as opposed to a human target; if hitting one thing has a certain difficulty attached to it, hitting something almost twice as tall and wide should should be less difficult. Although I think figuring out how to apply those bonuses and penalties is going to be a headache. Should everybody get a +2 dice pool to shoot or swing at trolls, or should trolls get a penalty to dodge and parry attempts, or both? Its a little clunky, though it is another example of how the troll's size is ignored by the system.
@Spike: Valid points, although strictly speaking making a Shotgun into a Heavy Pistol for a troll doesn't change anything mechanically, it just allows a troll to use a Defiance T-250 the way a human used a .44 Magnum. The Shotgun would look like a Heavy Pistol (albeit, one with a 2' barrel and a 4" wide cylinder that chambers 12ga rounds), but mechanically there wouldn't be any difference between a troll firing it and a human firing a normal T-250. (A human could even use the 12ga Magnum, but he'd hold it like a Shotgun and suck up the penalty for using a troll-mod weapon in human-sized hands.) It's essentially a fluff fix (at least until someone makes a dual Shotgun wielding troll phys ad, but I can worry about that tomorrow). The only real mechanical change would be giving trolls a bonus to weapon concealability, since it might be easier to hide something on a 3 meter tall guy than it is on a 1.8 meter tall guy.
@HappyDaze: It should be easier to hit a troll-sized target as opposed to a human target; if hitting one thing has a certain difficulty attached to it, hitting something almost twice as tall and wide should should be less difficult. Although I think figuring out how to apply those bonuses and penalties is going to be a headache. Should everybody get a +2 dice pool to shoot or swing at trolls, or should trolls get a penalty to dodge and parry attempts, or both? Its a little clunky, though it is another example of how the troll's size is ignored by the system.
@Spike: Valid points, although strictly speaking making a Shotgun into a Heavy Pistol for a troll doesn't change anything mechanically, it just allows a troll to use a Defiance T-250 the way a human used a .44 Magnum. The Shotgun would look like a Heavy Pistol (albeit, one with a 2' barrel and a 4" wide cylinder that chambers 12ga rounds), but mechanically there wouldn't be any difference between a troll firing it and a human firing a normal T-250. (A human could even use the 12ga Magnum, but he'd hold it like a Shotgun and suck up the penalty for using a troll-mod weapon in human-sized hands.) It's essentially a fluff fix (at least until someone makes a dual Shotgun wielding troll phys ad, but I can worry about that tomorrow). The only real mechanical change would be giving trolls a bonus to weapon concealability, since it might be easier to hide something on a 3 meter tall guy than it is on a 1.8 meter tall guy.
Trolls cost 40BP at char gen, and you don't really seem to get 40BP of value of that. And you have to pay 20%? more for post character generation equipment too boot. Savage.
So it's probably entirely reasonable to make a 'troll only' bonus that even a super strength human gets, (fluff justification due to a trolls sheer mass and size) and it probably won't be particularly unbalanced. I've seen 1 additional point of recoil comp for every 6 points of strength or part thereof, and that would probably work. You could even add 20% to clip size too boot.
So it's probably entirely reasonable to make a 'troll only' bonus that even a super strength human gets, (fluff justification due to a trolls sheer mass and size) and it probably won't be particularly unbalanced. I've seen 1 additional point of recoil comp for every 6 points of strength or part thereof, and that would probably work. You could even add 20% to clip size too boot.
| QUOTE |
| Trolls cost 40BP at char gen, and you don't really seem to get 40BP of value of that. And you have to pay 20%? more for post character generation equipment too boot. Savage. |
I call bullshit on this. Every troll benefits from an effective +4 Body and dermal armor. That alone is worth the 40 BP for any runner that ever has to make a damage resistance test, and I've found that to be about 100% of them. The rest of the bonuses - namely strength, reach, and a fast movement rate are really aimed for melee combat. Still, they don't really hurt even if you're not going for melee, and as others have said - lowered caps are not nearly as bad as the penalties in SR1-3 used to be.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| Trolls cost 40BP at char gen, and you don't really seem to get 40BP of value of that. |
*snort*
What they said!
A shotgun is a troll's pistol.
A rocket launcher is the troll's shotgun.
A Vindicator is the troll's SMG.
A Panther cannon is the troll's Rifle.
A rocket launcher is the troll's shotgun.
A Vindicator is the troll's SMG.
A Panther cannon is the troll's Rifle.
Hi! Old SR player (And CP202 and ED among others!) coming back to SR4.
Just wanted to add a few thoughts to this, as I'm kinda leaning towards the 'Trolls don't fit in SR' position.
Cyber only weapons
Not only did CP2020 have the 'borg only guns (things like Rail Guns IIRC), but it also had in the base book the heaviest of Heavy pistols, the Malorian Arms. this pistol could only be fired by a user with a cyberarm, as the recoil was to great for a meat arm and the cyberarm could lock itself in position when shooting.
I think the borg weapons did damage from thier recoil if used by a non borg, but its been a while!
Cyber only firearms would be a nice addition to SR, maybe they'll be inlcuded in Arsenal?
As already mentioned, hopefully STR/BOD rules for recoil will be bought back.
Troll Weapons
ED had a nice take on this, with weapon sizes. Trolls could use one size up of weapons in a single hand, over the smaller races. Reach hasn't really covered that side of things.
IMO Reach should have been a trade off (as mentioned above) to a bonus to hit Troll in Ranged, due to thier size.
But Trolls should be able to use larger weapons (both in one hand or two) to the smaller races (with Dwarves probably taking a penalty on this...), which should be reflected by the wepaons stats.
A Sword has a greater reach and damage than a knife because of it's size. But trolls should probably be able to use swords as knives and huge 8/9ft monstrousities as swords, with an increased reach/damage reflected by this.
Just wanted to add a few thoughts to this, as I'm kinda leaning towards the 'Trolls don't fit in SR' position.
Cyber only weapons
Not only did CP2020 have the 'borg only guns (things like Rail Guns IIRC), but it also had in the base book the heaviest of Heavy pistols, the Malorian Arms. this pistol could only be fired by a user with a cyberarm, as the recoil was to great for a meat arm and the cyberarm could lock itself in position when shooting.
I think the borg weapons did damage from thier recoil if used by a non borg, but its been a while!
Cyber only firearms would be a nice addition to SR, maybe they'll be inlcuded in Arsenal?
As already mentioned, hopefully STR/BOD rules for recoil will be bought back.
Troll Weapons
ED had a nice take on this, with weapon sizes. Trolls could use one size up of weapons in a single hand, over the smaller races. Reach hasn't really covered that side of things.
IMO Reach should have been a trade off (as mentioned above) to a bonus to hit Troll in Ranged, due to thier size.
But Trolls should be able to use larger weapons (both in one hand or two) to the smaller races (with Dwarves probably taking a penalty on this...), which should be reflected by the wepaons stats.
A Sword has a greater reach and damage than a knife because of it's size. But trolls should probably be able to use swords as knives and huge 8/9ft monstrousities as swords, with an increased reach/damage reflected by this.
in shadowrun 3 there were special rules for trolls and big/heavy weapons. effectively, a troll could wield any 2 handed weapon in one hand with only a +1 modifier if i remember correctly.
Meaning a Troll COULD do akimbo with 2 LMG's for example. or use the STR+3Serious Damage(STR+4Deadly with Dikote) Pole Arm in one hand the way smaller races would use a Sword for example. And i think there was something that trolls get a +1 on power niveau if they are using 1 handed weapons in one hand and +2 on power niveau,if they used a 1H weapon in 2 hands. but don't nail me to that, i am just now waking up x.x
Meaning a Troll COULD do akimbo with 2 LMG's for example. or use the STR+3Serious Damage(STR+4Deadly with Dikote) Pole Arm in one hand the way smaller races would use a Sword for example. And i think there was something that trolls get a +1 on power niveau if they are using 1 handed weapons in one hand and +2 on power niveau,if they used a 1H weapon in 2 hands. but don't nail me to that, i am just now waking up x.x
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 28 2007, 01:35 AM) |
| What they said! |
If they are totally awesome, why don't more people play them?
Lets randomly poll the first couple of game threads in 'welcome to the shadows' My sample is exclusively comprised of ones that have a handy dandy character roster at the start, so is not very thorough.
Okay, so the survey says out of the first 5 comprehensible games, 1 character out of 27 is a troll. more than one is an ork (It was about 8 or 9 but I wasn't really paying attention, dwarfs where easily the second most under-represented). I imagine this trend would continue.
Now, I definately agree that lots of people won't play trolls for RP reasons, doesn;t fit the concept or whatever. However, I reckon it is also because they are not really as good as an Ork.
They get +4 body and +4 strength. L33+ except strength is frankly not that good in this game due to the fact that people use guns to injure each other, rather than pounding each other with fists, when they do hit each other in melee the popular choice is a monofiliment whip that doens;t even need strength, yes you can outrun people but that doesn't make a different if your strength is 5 or 10, and the lfiting rules are all over the place so you really are running on DM fait there.
The dermal armour is sweet though, except that costs, what, 1 bp to have fitted? (And, admittedly, 0.5 essence, orthoskin is 6 BP and 0.25 essence)
The biggest *problem* to my mind is you take a hit to *agility* which is the key player stat in a game about shooting people with guns. You're not going to play an awakened character because that makes your strength useless and your drain stats are all down, compared to the ork who can play an intuition tradition no problems.
Edit: Actually, to be fair you could probably make a pretty cool possession summoner with *huge* stats. But really, the ork would probably do that better too.
So lets look at the ork. Yes I am down 2 points of strength, 1 point of body, 1 point of natural armour and yes, I have low light vision vs thermographic. On the upside I don't have to pay 20% more for equipment, I haven't got an agility limit for optimal BP effiency of 4 instead of 5, I can still have higher intuition too, a vital skill for stealth and perception oritentated shadowrunners, but the really important thing is for this awesome ork package I have paid 20 BP less than the troll. I can spend that on a point of body if it's really required (giving me the same body mod as the troll), and maybe a skill group, or just another 50k of cold hard cash.
Yes you can make some invunerable troll with supermegazordbody rating, and give him some sort of machine gun and frankly be awesome, but when you want to do anything else, a troll isn't a very good chassis.
And relying on your machine gun in a world with security checkpoints probably isn't a hugely good idea either.
As a total package, an ork is much cheaper, doesn't have several of the rough edges (more expensive equipment, akward stat penalties, difficult to fit in typical SR situations), and is almost as good where it counts - body. Whats more, he is a more flexible and rounded body for building a shadowrunner, it is possible to stumble through life without much logic or charisma, but everyone is going to make a perception test, and agility rolls happen whenever you shoot!
Anyway, thats why I think trolls suck, but I feel my one of 27 characters stat tells a more compelling story than I ever could.
I can't recall any regular player in all my groups ever playing an orc, dating back to 1991. A number of trolls were played though, two of them for years. Strength - which was used not just for melee, but also to compensate for recoil - and the lifting rules (for total gear and ammo) were important, as was body.
For troll weapons, I usually don't care much, I just tend to give trolls heavier weapons, shotguns, MGs, assault canons and the like. I feel the lack of size modifiers to get hit as a troll compensates enough.
For troll weapons, I usually don't care much, I just tend to give trolls heavier weapons, shotguns, MGs, assault canons and the like. I feel the lack of size modifiers to get hit as a troll compensates enough.
Cool, but I could draw the same conculsions from just surveying the group with the troll in it, but when we take a step back, and look at more groups that story doesn't repeat itself.
However, I only checked out five groups in welcome to the shadows, but there are like 25 on the first and second page alone. You could probably make some really compelling stats to do a great analysis of the argument by looking through all the groups and checking out troll, ork, dwarf (the likely suspects) metatype numbers. I honestly suspect that it will go Ork, Dwarf, Troll in order of popularity, but dwarves will be close to trolls!
However, I only checked out five groups in welcome to the shadows, but there are like 25 on the first and second page alone. You could probably make some really compelling stats to do a great analysis of the argument by looking through all the groups and checking out troll, ork, dwarf (the likely suspects) metatype numbers. I honestly suspect that it will go Ork, Dwarf, Troll in order of popularity, but dwarves will be close to trolls!
First: One character out of twenty seven, huh? Sounds they're being played roughly three and a half times more often than their default population level in the setting supports. Much like Awakened characters, there must be some benefit to them for that to be the case, yes?
Second: Maybe people aren't playing them because possibly, just possibly, not all of us care only about numbers. There are plenty of other threads -- going on right now, in fact, still on the front page -- about how different Trolls are from other metaraces, how much uglier and bigger. At the same time, there's a thread going on detailing the differences between kick-in-the-door-because-it-looks-badass gamers and Bourne-Identity wannabe types. Trolls, and their stat mods (no matter how impressive) don't support everyone's style of play or mental images of their characters.
Third: No one said Trolls are "totally awesome." We just said they certainly get their 40 points' worth in attribute boosts. It is quite easily argued, in fact, they actually get their points' worth in one attribute alone, simply looking at things mathematically (Body and the extra soak bonus, for instance), and ignoring every other modifier they receive. If you are out to make a strong, tough, guy, there are very very few reasons not to make a Troll (aside from RPing itself). They can "get their points worth" and not be so "totally awesome" that more people should play them, all at the same time.
Second: Maybe people aren't playing them because possibly, just possibly, not all of us care only about numbers. There are plenty of other threads -- going on right now, in fact, still on the front page -- about how different Trolls are from other metaraces, how much uglier and bigger. At the same time, there's a thread going on detailing the differences between kick-in-the-door-because-it-looks-badass gamers and Bourne-Identity wannabe types. Trolls, and their stat mods (no matter how impressive) don't support everyone's style of play or mental images of their characters.
Third: No one said Trolls are "totally awesome." We just said they certainly get their 40 points' worth in attribute boosts. It is quite easily argued, in fact, they actually get their points' worth in one attribute alone, simply looking at things mathematically (Body and the extra soak bonus, for instance), and ignoring every other modifier they receive. If you are out to make a strong, tough, guy, there are very very few reasons not to make a Troll (aside from RPing itself). They can "get their points worth" and not be so "totally awesome" that more people should play them, all at the same time.
I agree with you about RPing concerns and numerical issues as I stated previously, however that was my point with Orks being a much more flexiable chassis both numerically, and apparently from an RP perspective given the greater numbers.
Your point about ignoring all the other modifiers and then wow they get 40 points of body for 40 bps invested is not really useful because they do get negative modifiers. And when we compare them to our friends the orks, those negative modifiers are serious. Walking though common archetypes: Street sammie, Hacker, Rigger, Mages, Adepts, Technomancers, a trolls performance as all common archetypes is impacted due to stat modifications in key statistics (agility, Open question, Agility, all drain linked stats, agility, all mental stats). Orcs only loose on technomancers and a subset of mages.
So, I don't think you're getting my point about value. A troll invests his 40 bp and takes home some goodies and some problems that will impact whatever archetype he is working towards. An ork invests less BP, gets a large percentage in the goodies department, and has less downsides, downsides that may never enter play.
Maybe I could have phrased my orginial point better as 'If you want to be big green and ugly Orks > Trolls from a mechanistic perspective, and offer an (apparently?) more flexiable RPing chassis.' (a conculsion that has to be drawn from the popularity of orks over trolls if decisions are not numerical. Personally I think it is a combination of both as outlined previously.)
The racial demographics argument is not something I'd consdiered, otherwise you'd have to apply it to mages, so it never occured to me. Instead I'd expect to see 10% or so, based on playable races in the book, but my sample size is obviously not big enough to draw conculsions of seeing that.
Your point about ignoring all the other modifiers and then wow they get 40 points of body for 40 bps invested is not really useful because they do get negative modifiers. And when we compare them to our friends the orks, those negative modifiers are serious. Walking though common archetypes: Street sammie, Hacker, Rigger, Mages, Adepts, Technomancers, a trolls performance as all common archetypes is impacted due to stat modifications in key statistics (agility, Open question, Agility, all drain linked stats, agility, all mental stats). Orcs only loose on technomancers and a subset of mages.
So, I don't think you're getting my point about value. A troll invests his 40 bp and takes home some goodies and some problems that will impact whatever archetype he is working towards. An ork invests less BP, gets a large percentage in the goodies department, and has less downsides, downsides that may never enter play.
Maybe I could have phrased my orginial point better as 'If you want to be big green and ugly Orks > Trolls from a mechanistic perspective, and offer an (apparently?) more flexiable RPing chassis.' (a conculsion that has to be drawn from the popularity of orks over trolls if decisions are not numerical. Personally I think it is a combination of both as outlined previously.)
The racial demographics argument is not something I'd consdiered, otherwise you'd have to apply it to mages, so it never occured to me. Instead I'd expect to see 10% or so, based on playable races in the book, but my sample size is obviously not big enough to draw conculsions of seeing that.
I think you'll find "Why not just play an Ork, instead?" is something of an ongoing theme over in our "Do Trolls Really Belong In Shadowrun" thread. So you'll get no disagreement from me there. That is, however, a far cry from the actual initial statement (that sparked my disagreement), of "Trolls aren't worth the points."
As for some sort of BOD/STR recoil bonus, I'm all for it. I'm assuming its going to be in Arsenal, since it was in the last two editions' Big Gun Book. (Personally, I think that was one of those rules that could have been upgraded to the Main Book, but hey, it gives us something to look forward to in Arsenal.) Toss that in with letting trolls use weapons as though they were a category or two lighter (which is a fluff fix as much as anything), and we're well on our way. I still like the idea of giving trolls a bonus on Heavy Weapon recoil (like not doubling it), although the BOD/STR recoil rule would likely get the job done just as easily.
Melee weapons I'm not as worried about for the time being. I could see an across the board damage increase for things made for trolls since they'd be at least half again as large as the regular weapon, but I'm not passionate about it. Basically, I'm not staying up nights trying to figure out how to get trolls to do more damage in melee, is what I'm saying.
Melee weapons I'm not as worried about for the time being. I could see an across the board damage increase for things made for trolls since they'd be at least half again as large as the regular weapon, but I'm not passionate about it. Basically, I'm not staying up nights trying to figure out how to get trolls to do more damage in melee, is what I'm saying.
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| in shadowrun 3 there were special rules for trolls and big/heavy weapons. effectively, a troll could wield any 2 handed weapon in one hand with only a +1 modifier if i remember correctly. Meaning a Troll COULD do akimbo with 2 LMG's for example. or use the STR+3Serious Damage(STR+4Deadly with Dikote) Pole Arm in one hand the way smaller races would use a Sword for example. And i think there was something that trolls get a +1 on power niveau if they are using 1 handed weapons in one hand and +2 on power niveau,if they used a 1H weapon in 2 hands. but don't nail me to that, i am just now waking up x.x |
IIRC it was +1 TN to use a two-handed melee weapon in one hand.
+0 TN to use a two-handed gun such as a rifle or shotgun in one hand.
Heavy weapons like MMG and PACs aren't included in the above, but I don't remember what the modifier was.
I also don't remember the book that it was in, but dang it I remember those first two TN modifiers.
Probably either SR3 Core, SR3 Companion or Canon Companion
I don't know about the numbers of posters, but I do know that every Shadowrun game I've ever played in or ran since 1st edition someone has played a troll.
Without fail.
I can't even say that about humans, much less any other metatype. I have had 'no human' games, 'no elf' games, and a veritable trove of 'no ork or dwarf' games.
Never, not once, have I seen a 'no troll' game.
But thats just my expirence, so its hardly scientific. If you want to just go off of 'BP cost vs benefits' no one would ever NOT play an Ork, as i understand it. Free money, as they say... doesn't mean other races aren't valuable for their costs, just that orkes is broked.
Without fail.
I can't even say that about humans, much less any other metatype. I have had 'no human' games, 'no elf' games, and a veritable trove of 'no ork or dwarf' games.
Never, not once, have I seen a 'no troll' game.
But thats just my expirence, so its hardly scientific. If you want to just go off of 'BP cost vs benefits' no one would ever NOT play an Ork, as i understand it. Free money, as they say... doesn't mean other races aren't valuable for their costs, just that orkes is broked.
Playing a troll is a valid powergaming choice. I'm doing fine with an INT 4 LOG 4 CHA 3 rigger Troll PC. Biggest DP is Pilot Ground Vehicle, and REA cap is same as for humans. Coulda maxed out even harder with Ork, plus a lot more options for driving stolen/captured vehicles, but in my GM's game, one doesn't need full min-max to have "enough", to be better than Joe Thug.
Playing a troll as an RP choice is a different question. Some GMs might either reflexively assume that the player is shooting for Bubba the Barbarian, and tend to slap down the PC, or try to shoehorn the character into Bubba the Barbarian against the player's intent. If the player and GM both *want* Bubba the Barbarian, then they'll do just fine. If the player and the GM both *want* savvy Troll who keeps getting underestimated by stereotypers, that's fine too.
Meanwhile... "trolls can apply the two-pistol rule to other weapons" is an easy houserule. The rules on melee weapons are low-res enough that one can treat a huge sword as a combat axe - more damage, more reach than a normal sword.
Target size should affect ranged attacker's DP; consider the case in which the target is not evading at all (surprised, paralysed, willing, mannekin, cardboard cutout, etc.). In melee, hitting or missing is mostly about the target's countermeasures, so I'd stick with the Reach rules as written; if the troll uses Reach to fend off the attacker, they get +1 against melee attack... with GM discretion if attacker goes for the troll's arm rather than trying to get past to their torso.
Playing a troll as an RP choice is a different question. Some GMs might either reflexively assume that the player is shooting for Bubba the Barbarian, and tend to slap down the PC, or try to shoehorn the character into Bubba the Barbarian against the player's intent. If the player and GM both *want* Bubba the Barbarian, then they'll do just fine. If the player and the GM both *want* savvy Troll who keeps getting underestimated by stereotypers, that's fine too.
Meanwhile... "trolls can apply the two-pistol rule to other weapons" is an easy houserule. The rules on melee weapons are low-res enough that one can treat a huge sword as a combat axe - more damage, more reach than a normal sword.
Target size should affect ranged attacker's DP; consider the case in which the target is not evading at all (surprised, paralysed, willing, mannekin, cardboard cutout, etc.). In melee, hitting or missing is mostly about the target's countermeasures, so I'd stick with the Reach rules as written; if the troll uses Reach to fend off the attacker, they get +1 against melee attack... with GM discretion if attacker goes for the troll's arm rather than trying to get past to their torso.
I can only assume we approach the concept of value differently. If I have two mutually exclusive choices A and B, and I can do the same or very similar things as A but better with B, I think of that as A being a 'low value' choice, because part of the (opportunity) cost of A is not doing B.
There are other equally valid ways to examine the 'value' of a choice, but the issue seems to have arisen because I used one methodology and others used another.
There are other equally valid ways to examine the 'value' of a choice, but the issue seems to have arisen because I used one methodology and others used another.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| There are other equally valid ways to examine the 'value' of a choice, but the issue seems to have arisen because I used one methodology and others used another. |
I don't think that's the case. People disagreed with exactly what you said ...
| QUOTE |
| Trolls cost 40BP at char gen, and you don't really seem to get 40BP of value of that. |
Choices aside, this is the statement in contention.
Alas, +1 reach is no longer as powerful as it once was. 'Twas a time with an ambidextrous Troll melee specialist with a dikoted claymore and two dikoted spurs could choose between slaughtering entire hoards up close and personal or cutting open vehicles as if he were a living can-opener.
Alas, poor Wallhacker! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite whupass, of most excellent slaughter.
Alas, poor Wallhacker! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite whupass, of most excellent slaughter.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 28 2007, 10:54 PM) | ||
Choices aside, this is the statement in contention. |
Okay, but I don't think you can have a reasonable discussion of the value of a choice without comparing to the alternatives (i.e. considering the opportunity cost).
Reading me as saying 'trolls arn't worth the points' is not what I intended at all.
Saying it was 'spending 40 BP on being a troll is not as good as the other options available for those 40 BP and that metatype slot' is though.
| QUOTE |
I think you'll find "Why not just play an Ork, instead?" is something of an ongoing theme over in our "Do Trolls Really Belong In Shadowrun" thread. So you'll get no disagreement from me there. That is, however, a far cry from the actual initial statement (that sparked my disagreement), of "Trolls aren't worth the points." |
My statement is flawed because I did not explicitly address the other cost wrapped up in spending 40 BP to become a troll, not being a different metatype, which was a mistake. Fine, stop chewing my ear about it now plz
What I was trying to say with my remark is that when compared to the most closely comparable metatype (orks), trolls strike me as poor value (only moderately better bonuses come with a huge suite of handicaps by comparison) for twice the cost. This means that the selection of troll does not get good value out of your 40 BP investment, because the selection of ork at half the cost and whatever else you do with those 20 BP creates more 'value' for your character. This, to me, makes orks the high value choice and trolls a low value choice, and they are certainly not getting best bang for buck out of that 40 BP and racial type investment.
I'm still open to an argument about why a troll is a high value choice for your meta type selection, preferably by a juxtaposition against orks, seemingly the logical comparison point.
Now having established that, my original remark was intended to set a context of low valuation on the choice of troll, and thus I felt there was plenty of room to improve trolls without making them a excessively highly valued choice.
Does anyone feel that trolls are a significantly more valuable choice than orks?
Every time, for every character? Of course not. Not any more than orks are always the right choice for every archetype or every character concept.
But the fact remains -- if what you're after, deep inside, is ridiculous STR and BOD, Trolls are hard to beat. That's the niche they fill, and they do so pretty darned well. I'll admit the hit that Reach took between SR3 and SR4 was a bit of a hit on them (but it could be argued Close Combat neutered that anyways), but they're still the "go to" race if what you're after is a brick, period.
But the fact remains -- if what you're after, deep inside, is ridiculous STR and BOD, Trolls are hard to beat. That's the niche they fill, and they do so pretty darned well. I'll admit the hit that Reach took between SR3 and SR4 was a bit of a hit on them (but it could be argued Close Combat neutered that anyways), but they're still the "go to" race if what you're after is a brick, period.
It's kind of unfair to compare trolls to orks, because orks really are the best deal, purely points-wise.
Trolls are more comparable to elves, in that they don't seem to be an optimal choice, points-wise, but are still optimal for certain roles because of the specific bonuses that they get.
Trolls are more comparable to elves, in that they don't seem to be an optimal choice, points-wise, but are still optimal for certain roles because of the specific bonuses that they get.
Yeah. It would be an easier comparison to make if it weren't a role-playing game. In a wargame it would be a straight cost/effectiveness evaluation, but when you start letting in imagery and thematics all sorts of factors get introduced that don't have a mathematical value. (Sometimes people want to play a brick, and look at trolls for the bonuses. Sometimes they get an idea for a troll character, and then have to make the math work.)
I've always seen trolls as a one-man machine gun team, not so much as the end-all-be-all of their existence, but rather a likely role the military would develop if they had the option to field 2.5m tall, 300 kilo soldiers. Sure, it might take more to feed and clothe the troll trooper, but he's essentially doing three guys jobs for one paycheck. Instead of having one guy loading an MMG, another firing it, and a third watching where the rounds are going; you mod it for the big guy and let him run with it.
Are military units in SR desegregated? I have always assumed they are, although I guess it might depend on which military we're talking about. Absent a specific mention in the timeline (which I am way, way too lazy to look up), I'd assume the UCAS military desegregated in the 40's, if not earlier, and that mixed-metatype units were standard. Trolls might be less common in the officer ranks (although you could attribute this to social and economic factors, as well as mechanical), and less common in certain jobs-- few militaries are going to pay to troll-mod a fighter jet. Or, maybe their double digit BOD ratings make them able to withstand much higher G-forces, making them superior choices for fighter pilots. (It would be funny if a troll pilot was the only one who could withstand the same Gs that drones could pull, although I kind of doubt G-force damage is written into the system anywhere.)
Still, the place it matters most to us gamers is how trolls fit into the shadows. I'm going to get all boolean and say there are two types. There are the trolls who become runners because of their stats (big, bullet-resistance, machine gun wielding tanks) and those who become runners in spite of their stats (that is, who's skills and talents make them good runners, regardless of their metatype).
I've always seen trolls as a one-man machine gun team, not so much as the end-all-be-all of their existence, but rather a likely role the military would develop if they had the option to field 2.5m tall, 300 kilo soldiers. Sure, it might take more to feed and clothe the troll trooper, but he's essentially doing three guys jobs for one paycheck. Instead of having one guy loading an MMG, another firing it, and a third watching where the rounds are going; you mod it for the big guy and let him run with it.
Are military units in SR desegregated? I have always assumed they are, although I guess it might depend on which military we're talking about. Absent a specific mention in the timeline (which I am way, way too lazy to look up), I'd assume the UCAS military desegregated in the 40's, if not earlier, and that mixed-metatype units were standard. Trolls might be less common in the officer ranks (although you could attribute this to social and economic factors, as well as mechanical), and less common in certain jobs-- few militaries are going to pay to troll-mod a fighter jet. Or, maybe their double digit BOD ratings make them able to withstand much higher G-forces, making them superior choices for fighter pilots. (It would be funny if a troll pilot was the only one who could withstand the same Gs that drones could pull, although I kind of doubt G-force damage is written into the system anywhere.)
Still, the place it matters most to us gamers is how trolls fit into the shadows. I'm going to get all boolean and say there are two types. There are the trolls who become runners because of their stats (big, bullet-resistance, machine gun wielding tanks) and those who become runners in spite of their stats (that is, who's skills and talents make them good runners, regardless of their metatype).
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Alas, +1 reach is no longer as powerful as it once was. 'Twas a time with an ambidextrous Troll melee specialist with a dikoted claymore and two dikoted spurs could choose between slaughtering entire hoards up close and personal or cutting open vehicles as if he were a living can-opener. Alas, poor Wallhacker! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite whupass, of most excellent slaughter. |
b e a utifull ^^
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Every time, for every character? Of course not. Not any more than orks are always the right choice for every archetype or every character concept. But the fact remains -- if what you're after, deep inside, is ridiculous STR and BOD, Trolls are hard to beat. That's the niche they fill, and they do so pretty darned well. I'll admit the hit that Reach took between SR3 and SR4 was a bit of a hit on them (but it could be argued Close Combat neutered that anyways), but they're still the "go to" race if what you're after is a brick, period. |
Yeah, orks are definately the best race, and in my view could do with costing a bit more (lots of their points are in strength which I consider the 'dump stat' of SR) and elves with costing a bit less (not much less)
As for the concept thing, you're right! But I'd like to see the troll maybe rounded a bit more so that the concept trolls are good for are not so 'down on power' compared to the same concept retro fitted to be an ork, or if you are looking at some sort of invulro troll with big guns as glyph outlines, a rigger. I reckon those two guys can fill many of the 'troll concept niches' much more effectively than a troll (mostly because they can do other stuff relatively flexibly), and that kinda sucks because any character you can make should be a performer, imho.
I don't think it would take much boost though to make trolls front and centre., just a bit of pizazz.
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