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GentlemanLoser
Sorry if this has been bought up before, I tried a search, by as usualy my seaching skills were weak. wink.gif

I'm a little confused with Counterspell, how it works on the Mage themself, especially when targetted unawares by another Mage.

First, the Main SR book says;

QUOTE
a magician never needs to declare that he is using counterspelling on himself


Cool. So unlike helping your Sammy friend out, if you were the target of a Manabolt, you always get your CS dice to help you resist the spell.

But how does this work when unaware of a spell being used on you?

Under counterspelling in the SR4 book;

QUOTE
To do this, the Magician must spend a free action to declare who she is protecting.


But that's only on others. As clarified by;

QUOTE
Note that a magician can always use Counterspelling to defend herslef, unless surprised


Does unaware use count as being surprised? Otherwise, wouldn't the magician be able to use thier counterspelling to resist any unaware targetting?

QUOTE
A magician who is actively Counterspelling can even defend against spells she is unaware of


But what's actively counterspelling? CS doesn't casue any Drian (in this use), require any tests, nor impose any dice penalties, unlike sustianing spells.

So aren't (or rather shouldn't) Mages considered to be 'actively' CSing themselves all the time?

Unless surprised...

Then Street Mages adds;

QUOTE
a Magician who is unaware of being targetted by a spell may not use spell defense to counteract it if thier spell defense was not already "on"


Now I'm confused. indifferent.gif

While I understand that you would have to turn "on" spell defense on others, using a free action, the Mage themself doesn't require the use of an action to turn SD on on themself. So isn't it *always* "on" for the Mage?
Magus
Typically your CS is latent until you are hit by a known incomming spell, if your mage is simply walking downtown shopping, I would consider him surprised if he is hit by any spell unless it has a physical appearance ie fireball.

Now if your mage is a paranoid sort ( and tell one who is isn't) then he DECLARES at the start of every action/movement I have active CS on myself.

That is how I interpret it.
GentlemanLoser
But he doesn't need to declare it.

Or if you rule he does, as it offer absolutly no negative to the mage to do so, whydoesn't he prefix everything he does, and every in combat action with "I SD myself", so much so that you can just safely ignore the player having to admit it and just rule that for any mage, SD is always declared "on".

Are Mages always surprised by unaware spells?

If so, then there's no way they could SD themselves to unaware spells as per;

QUOTE
Note that a magician can always use Counterspelling to defend herslef, unless


indifferent.gif
DireRadiant
You can always decide "Active" counterspelling, while not taking any mechanical rolls, always counts as an action of some kind that imposes the standard +2 penalty modifier for any other actions.
GentlemanLoser
What then is Active Spell Defense?

If a Mage already in combat with another Mage get's hit by a Manabolt, would they need to use Active SD versus it and take the +2 Penalty?

If not, what's the justification (bar house rulling for balance...) of imposing a +2 Penalty when not in a complex activitly like combat, and they're just walking down the street?

Ol' Scratch
Being surprised and being unaware are two completely different things.

Being surprised is being shocked and momentarily stunned by a hostile action that came out of nowhere. You're a doe in the headlights, and even simple tasks are momentarily beyond you until you can recover and get a handle on the situation. So even though you could perform an action normally, you can't right now because, to put it bluntly, you're scared shitless.

Being unaware means exactly that. You're just unaware of something going on around you. Like a guy walking down the street with an Invisibility spell sustained on himself. Your mind is just fine and dandy, and your magical protection (Counterspelling dice) are working at full effectiveness, so you get to add them to your test... assuming you had your spell defense "on" prior to the encounter. (ie, They don't defend you all by themselves; just because you have the skill doesn't mean you remembered to "activate" it.)

Now if Mr. Invisible jumped off a ledge and tried to throw a Firebolt at your face, that would require a Surprise check. If you failed, you wouldn't have access to your Counterspelling dice until you recovered.
Whipstitch
Well, first of all, walking down the street doesn't take a test. Ergo, the increased threshold penalty from the days of yore could return just to try and ruin your Sunday stroll and it won't matter until something pertinent to the plot turns up. For example, if the Mage is strolling down the boardwalk and is extending his Counterspelling to cover his date, the penalty won't matter until say, some gangers start tailing him at which point there's a -2 penalty to his Perception/Shadowing test to realize he might get mugged. So a global -2 penalty is justifiable because it really well might as well not exist until something complex is up and because you as a player may not even be in a position to realize that the -2 penalty is doing more harm than good at any one given moment.
GentlemanLoser
Doctor, once you've (somehow) turned your SD "on", it's remains on until "the magician decides to end it".

So if it's up before being surprised, shouldn't it remain up? Or doe sht eact of surprise jolt the mage so much any active SD goes down?

Whip, in that case, why bother with the penalty at all, and assume SD is up all the time, and you get it versus unaware spells?
Dashifen
I think I can handle this question, GentlemanLoser. I run it like you describe in your second question: a mage can always defend themselves with counter spelling without declaring it, without spending an action, unless they're surprised (which requires loosing a Surprise Test, see p. 155) in which case the shock of the situation causes a momentary lapse in their defenses. After the shock wears off, their defenses snap back into place.

Where are you guys finding information about a penalty for counter spelling? I don't see it anywhere.

Edit: Oh ... rereading DireRadiant's post above, it looks like he's suggesting a house rule for the penalty. Am I correct?

Whipstitch
QUOTE (GentlemanLoser @ Nov 28 2007, 10:12 AM)
So if it's up before being surprised, shouldn't it remain up?  Or doe sht eact of surprise jolt the mage so much any active SD goes down?

Whip, in that case, why bother with the penalty at all, and assume SD is up all the time, and you get it versus unaware spells?

Your spell defense is on until you end it, yes, and it isn't ever "used" up before then, so theoretically a 1000 mages could cast Detect GentleManLoser and were you a mage you'd be entitled to Counterspelling dice against each of them. And honestly, doesn't that really answer the question why some people feel that there should be a penalty attached? It's like the magical equivalent of always getting to be on Full Defense otherwise. It IS a balance oriented houserule, yes, but doesn't it seem a little odd that creating your own personal anti-magic zone is so much easier than sustaining a spell?

Anyway, my current GM plays under the standard counterspelling rules, and yes, my mage basically actively counterspells at all times. My old GM penalized much the way DireRadiant suggested and I actually had to think for a second whether I wanted to attempt to run a Jammer, two instances of Improved Invisibility AND actively counterspell at the same time. Whether that's good or bad is up to you.
GentlemanLoser
Yes. wink.gif

Which was the original reason for the post. I tohught I was misunderstnading the rules, and that SD either took an action, orhad some inherant drawback.

But it doesn't, and should probably be house ruled.

Like who needs a ward to stop Invisible Mages, when you not only get an innate CS boosted roll to negate the spell, but can also (on a good enough roll) sense your SD going off, alerting you to the presence of said Invisible Mage (probably negating and "Surprise" of them dropping out of Invis and/or Fireballing you).

Not only that, but for a free action you could have used hours if not days ago, all yoru friends, regardless of distance or location to yourself, get that support as well.

To me, CS is just a 'little' too good. wink.gif

Edit: As a little off topic to CS. Do you only get the CS boosted resistance roll to detect Invisiblity once (for each instance of the cast)? I suppose if you recognised your CS going off, you could probably try to actively dispell the Invisbility. But then you'ld need to be able to perceive the spell...
Earlydawn
Counterspelling should definitely impose some kind of standing penalty to give it a price for use.
Ophis
On the Invisibility thing, there are no indications that you notice your Counterspelling being triggered, unless you glitch it and eat drain (A Risk every time you use spell defence).

Yes Counterspelling is good, but hey at least it's worth using in this edition(without Sheilding MM). Mostly it balances mages against other types, a Mage gets no real benefit from ambushing another mage where as sammies do. A win for the mundanes. I probably wouldn't allow use of Shielding and it's relatives when surprised though it seems more of a active thing.
Ophis
Actually if you want a "price" just have it make the source obvious on the astral plane making it much harder to hide. With how most mages use Masking once they get it that would limit things greatly. That and have it leave a weak, short lived astral sig if it actually does anything.
Tarantula
Gentlemen, counterspelling for your friends requires that they be within your LOS. If they aren't in your LOS then you can't counterspell for them.

Other than that, Dashifen nailed it.
Eleazar
QUOTE (Earlydawn)
Counterspelling should definitely impose some kind of standing penalty to give it a price for use.

If you do this, you actually aren't hurting mages as much as you are hurting non-mages. Since counterspelling unactively is always free, mages just wouldn't actively counterpell, and wouldn't declare counterspelling on their fellow shadowrunners(non-mages) because of the sustaining penalty. So in reality, the mage gets a little less, and the non-mages get a lot less. Active counterspelling does seem like it would require a mages focus and thus act as a -2 distraction penalty. This again, hurts non-mages more. There are really only certain spells that require active counterspelling, spells like mental manipulations and illusions. These spells are most likely to be cast on a non-mage rather than a mage, because non-mages tend to be more susceptible to these kinds of willpower resist spells. Mages almost always have a high willpower due to drain. A your fellow non-mage runner however, would do well to have those extra counterspelling dice from active counterspelling.

I know it seems to make sense to do this, and that at first you are somehow balancing mages. However, in the end, you just making mages more powerful, because now non-mages are more likely not to have any counterspelling. The only way to balance against this, is to allow counterspelling foci to remove the -2 penalty for all counterspelling.
hyzmarca
"Surprised" has a very specific meaning. It means that another character has made a "surprise test" preceding that combat turn and your initiative score is less than his surprise score. If you are surprised, you cannot make any test against the character who has surprised you, offensively or defensively, for the first IP of the CT. In other words, counterspelling can't be used when "surprised" because nothing can be used when "surprised". You can't even resist with a stat when "surprised".

Unaware and surprised are two different things. If your Initiative score beats his Surprise score, it doesn't matter if you are aware of him or not. If he doesn't make a surprise test, it doesn't matter if you are aware of him or not.
GentlemanLoser
QUOTE (Ophis @ Nov 28 2007, 11:19 AM)
On the Invisibility thing, there are no indications that you notice your Counterspelling being triggered, unless you glitch it and eat drain (A Risk every time you use spell defence).

Yes Counterspelling is good, but hey at least it's worth using in this edition(without Sheilding MM). Mostly it balances mages against other types, a Mage gets no real benefit from ambushing another mage where as sammies do. A win for the mundanes. I probably wouldn't allow use of Shielding and it's relatives when surprised though it seems more of a active thing.

You get a Magic+Intuition (3) test to see if you CS a spell you are unaware of.

Tarantula, ah yes! missed the LoS rule. wink.gif I knew I was missing something there. wink.gif

So as it stands, unless you lose a surprise test, you can always CS any spell effecting you, even when unaware.

Must get Shielding to add more free dice! wink.gif

But I agree this is a litte too much, and a little too good! wink.gif

So the quote from Street Magic;

QUOTE
a Magician who is unaware of being targetted by a spell may not use spell defense to counteract it if thier spell defense was not already "on"


Is just plain wrong? Unless they mean using CS to protect someone else...
Ol' Scratch
Counterspelling = The Thing That Keeps Sorcery In Check.
Penalizing Counterspelling = Overpowering Sorcery.

Your call. Me, I'm not gonna do it.
Dashifen
I'm with DocFunk. The mages in my game already almost never counter spell their team mates mostly because they forget. And I have blasted a few of them with spells, if memory serves, so counter spelling would have been handy. If there were a penalty to counter spell others, then I think you'd never see it.
DTFarstar
My GM generally just assumes that if I ever have a free action to burn, it's burned on counterspelling the team. He does the same thing for the opposition, which is mildly annoying sometimes.

Chris
Riley37
When questions on the gun rules come up, we usually get a few posts from people with gun experience, who tend to favor more simulation than cinematic approach.

So, first establish what counterspelling is. A quality of the mage's aura? An intentional gesture or word or thought that deflects the mana of the incoming attack? A rules mechanic tacked on without any conception of in-game imagery?

Anyone wanna post based on their personal experience of countering spells?
Ravor
Naw, because then all of you stinking Sleepers will know that we exist.

Oops, pay no attention to what I just said, nothing to see here. embarrassed.gif




silly.gifsilly.gifsilly.gifsmokin.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Riley37)
When questions on the gun rules come up, we usually get a few posts from people with gun experience, who tend to favor more simulation than cinematic approach.

So, first establish what counterspelling is. A quality of the mage's aura? An intentional gesture or word or thought that deflects the mana of the incoming attack? A rules mechanic tacked on without any conception of in-game imagery?

Anyone wanna post based on their personal experience of countering spells?

Like most things relating to magic, it's whatever you (the player) want to describe it as. For one magician, it may be them projecting their aura around their comrades. For another it may be some crazy technomagical gizmo they cooked up that generates an antimagic field around those in range. For another it may be Dog watching over his friends. Whatever.

That's the best thing about Shadowrun's magic system.
sungun
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 28 2007, 09:05 PM) *
Like most things relating to magic, it's whatever you (the player) want to describe it as. For one magician, it may be them projecting their aura around their comrades. For another it may be some crazy technomagical gizmo they cooked up that generates an antimagic field around those in range. For another it may be Dog watching over his friends. Whatever.

That's the best thing about Shadowrun's magic system.


i've always thought of sr's magic system as a sort of universal science. maybe it's the hermetic in me, but it's like painting. someone can sketch and measure and use rulers while another can just start waving the brush, but in the end it's paint on canvas. that's how i view mana. so a mage thinks something and a shaman feels something, but they're both using their psyche to manipulate mana in what are actually similar ways.

i'd try to explain counterspelling by saying that it's much easier to cause mana to be in a natural chaotic state than to be bound into the form of a spell. and counterspelling sustained spells is more difficult because it's not just shaped mana; there's the mage or focus or spirit actually holding the spell together.
sungun
correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't all defense 'pools' get a lot more powerful in 4. didn't we use a limited dodge pool in 3, but now we're dodging everything?
Trigen
QUOTE (sungun @ Feb 21 2008, 09:21 AM) *
correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't all defense 'pools' get a lot more powerful in 4. didn't we use a limited dodge pool in 3, but now we're dodging everything?


Dodge everything? I don't know what you're talking about... in my SR4 games combat is almost ludicrously deadly. Most combat is done before the first round ends thanks to Wired Reflexes and every Sam packing a panther + like 17dice to shoot it with. Offense is a lot more powerful than defense in 2070 (well barring a milspec armor wearing troll build) so i don't know why you'd become critical of dodge being to good... especially since it doesn't even work for ranged weapons.
hyzmarca
In SR3 and other previous editions, you has to allocate Combat Pool in order to dodge and Combat Pool was limited. One could easily run out of it. In SR4, you automatically use Reaction to dodge and have the option of adding the Dodge skill to it.
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 24 2008, 08:26 AM) *
... and have the option of adding the Dodge skill to it.


Typically using up an entire phase to do so.
WeaverMount
The way it works at my table is that having CS active is visible on the astral, and socially constrained. Just like there is no mechanical penalty for a sam having weapon drawn and moving from cover to cover, that will raise a flag or two. Similarly If a mage is running CS some watcher spirit is bound to see it and will alert its summoner. That doesn't clear up all the issues, here, but I've found it to be a great benchmark
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