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Mercer
I'm wondering if there are any in canon dinosaurs in SR, and if there aren't, what sort of SR technologies could be used to make one.
Kyoto Kid
...obvious, Genetech.
Mercer
Would they be using a process similar to Jurassic Park, or would they be building them up from scratch? How advanced is the genetech in SR? Are dinosaur parks an accepted facet of the setting?
CircuitBoyBlue
They could also be magically created. Free spirits with a dino fetish, ally spirits designed to look that way, possibly even fossils raised by possession tradition mages?

Or, genetech. Or, they could just find a frozen one and have the tech to resurect it.

Or, dinosaurs could be an awakened species, similar to dragons coming back. Or, you could get REALLY crazy and have all the dinosaur fossils we've found throughout human history really be remnants of horror constructs, and as mana levels increase, what we used to think were "dinosaurs" actually come back to eat our souls.

Or, you could just have a troll street thug with "T-Wrecks" written on the back of his jacket. When he walks, people's water glasses ripple, and then he hits them with a chain and they fall down.
Stahlseele
you guys are giving me such horrible ideas for shadowrun O.o
tisoz
Shapechange should work. Too bad there's no more transform, it would work better for "true" dino goodness.

Could also cast Shapechange, then extract DNA, and create a clone.
mfb
freshwater and saltwater serpents bear a striking resemblance to certain species of dinosaur.
eidolon
QUOTE (tisoz)
Shapechange should work. Too bad there's no more transform, it would work better for "true" dino goodness.

Could also cast Shapechange, then extract DNA, and create a clone.

You consider DNA to be radically altered by the Shapechange spell? Interesting.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 30 2007, 10:09 AM)
Shapechange should work.  Too bad there's no more transform, it would work better for "true" dino goodness.

Could also cast Shapechange, then extract DNA, and create a clone.

You consider DNA to be radically altered by the Shapechange spell? Interesting.

Indeed. I've never even considered that. What would a shapechanged thing's DNA be like?
mfb
i suppose it does. after all, the spell changes you into a given creature--it doesn't change you into something that only looks like a given creature.

edit: actually, i take that back. it does change you into something that only looks like a given creature--if you changed into the actual species of the creature, you would take on its mental stats.
eidolon
I've always just assumed it as a matter transformation. Almost a turn-to-clay followed by a sculpt-into-X or something. Along the same lines of water to ice. Same stuff, different form.
Stahlseele
would explain why the target and critter body come into the formula for this spell . .
has to be the most complex forumla to see what kind of success you need and what kind of drain you take
Magus
Dinosaur Bio drones. Why not they already have a sabretooth cat biodrone.

Here Rex <whistles> Here boy!! Sic em Rex!!
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Magus)
Dinosaur Bio drones. Why not they already have a sabretooth cat biodrone.

Here Rex <whistles> Here boy!! Sic em Rex!!

Bowler Hat Guy: What's going on? Why aren't you seizing the boy?
T-Rex: 'Cause I have a big head and little arms, and I'm just not sure how well this plan was thought through.
Momijizukamori
QUOTE (tisoz)
Shapechange should work. Too bad there's no more transform, it would work better for "true" dino goodness.

Could also cast Shapechange, then extract DNA, and create a clone.

We actually tried this in a past campaign. Unfortunately the GM ruled that the ork mage wasn't actually allowed to turn into a velociraptor...so he ended up going for rhino instead.
Magus
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Magus @ Nov 30 2007, 01:07 PM)
Dinosaur Bio drones. Why not they already have a sabretooth cat biodrone.

Here Rex <whistles> Here boy!! Sic em Rex!!

Bowler Hat Guy: What's going on? Why aren't you seizing the boy?
T-Rex: 'Cause I have a big head and little arms, and I'm just not sure how well this plan was thought through.

You are a horrible horrible person Moon Hawk. My kids will not stop playing that video, I cannot get it out of my head. Now just when I got a break, you throw that out. Jeez!
Moon-Hawk
Oh yeah? I've never even seen it; just the commercials. smile.gif
Kingmaker
So you shapechange into a velociraptor, extract the DNA, and clone it. Congratulations, you now have a fully sentient and self aware dinosaur. Now ask your GM if you can play one. A little gene engineering for opposable thumbs and it is a very workable character, if not the ideal choice for a the team face.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
you now have a fully sentient and self aware dinosaur

gratulations, you've just replaced humans as the dominant species on this planet . . ok, we have opposable thumbs, but that is an magical, self aware velociraptor!
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Nov 30 2007, 12:26 PM)
QUOTE (tisoz @ Nov 30 2007, 10:09 AM)
Shapechange should work.  Too bad there's no more transform, it would work better for "true" dino goodness.

Could also cast Shapechange, then extract DNA, and create a clone.

You consider DNA to be radically altered by the Shapechange spell? Interesting.

Indeed. I've never even considered that. What would a shapechanged thing's DNA be like?

Your shapechanged DNA would look like your own DNA. Shapechanging doesn't modify your DNA, it magically changes the position of your cells to mimic the item you shapechange into. That is why you can't shapechange into something too much larger or smaller then your original form (you don't have the material for it). This brings up the question about the long term effects of shapchanging too much.
hyzmarca
The shadpechange spell is cast on the person, not the person's DNA. It may not even cause genetic changes. But, in the event that it does, the spell would stop effecting the DNA as soon as it ceases being part of the person for spell targeting purposes.

It would be like casting a levitation spell on a lego toy and then breaking a single block off of it. You don't suddenly have two functional levitate spells. You have one levitate sell on one lego toy and one falling block.
mfb
sure, but if it does affect the DNA of the target, you can copy that DNA. it's like casting trid phantasm and snapping a photo of the spell effect--even after the spell fades, the photo can still show you what it looked like.
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (mfb)
sure, but if it does affect the DNA of the target, you can copy that DNA. it's like casting trid phantasm and snapping a photo of the spell effect--even after the spell fades, the photo can still show you what it looked like.

I will have to disagree with you on this. While your right about trid phantasm spell, DNA cloning is a bit more different. Clone is a replicate of the original. If you clone shapechanged DNA it would revert to its none shapechanged state (assuming that shapechange is DNA based). Now if you cloned a Shapechanger's DNA that would be different. The clone would retain the Shapechange ability as it is inherited into the DNA.

I have one main argument that the shapechange spell doesn't change the DNA of the subject:

The drain for a shapechange spell does not reflect the complexity needed to do genetic modification. What that means, is a true DNA based shapechange spell would be very draining and would require the spell caster to know the DNA strand they want to shapechange to (Knowledge(Genetics)). It is easier (both logically and drain wise) to just rearrange the existing cells to take on the form of the shapechanged object (which is what the shapechange spell does).
Lagomorph
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
What that means, is a true DNA based shapechange spell would be very draining and would require the spell caster to know the DNA strand they want to shapechange to (Knowledge(Genetics)).

It is easier (both logically and drain wise) to just rearrange the existing cells to take on the form of the shapechanged object (which is what the shapechange spell does).

You're re-arranging trillions of objects either way. A human has trillions of cells, and DNA has trillions of G, T, C and A's.

Rearranging cells doesn't cover issues like "what if humans don't have this particular cell type for horns/thermovision/poison/spitting acid/breathing fire/whatever", where gene arranging would cover items like that.

If you would need Knowledge(genetics) to use DNA shapeshifting, wouldn't then a cell shapechangingneed to know the Knowldeg (exact cell location) to use the spell if the cells re-arrange? I don' think it would be required in either case.
hyzmarca
You can't transform into something with horns since horns are a form of Natural Weapon and Natural Weapon is a magical power and shapechange can only be ued to make you into a mundane critter.

I believe this is a case where we can safely say that it is magic.
mfb
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
Clone is a replicate of the original. If you clone shapechanged DNA it would revert to its none shapechanged state (assuming that shapechange is DNA based).

i'm not talking abut cloning the shapechanged DNA. i'm talking about taking the DNA--which is just a set of information coded into a molecule--and building a new strand of DNA based on that information.

realistically, of course, 'creating' a copy of DNA like that would actually involve manipulating the structure of the existing DNA of a cell sample. but the end result, if the alterations are careful and exact enough, would be a copy--not a clone, but a copy--of the original shapechanged DNA. and from that copy, you could conceivably clone a new creature.
eidolon
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
I have one main argument that the shapechange spell doesn't change the DNA of the subject:


I don't really have an "argument" for it. I just say that it doesn't, and BAM!

I love how RPGs work that way. grinbig.gif
DTFarstar
The main reason I think it does alter the DNA of a character is because you can stay shapechanged for a long time with no long term effects. DNA is what tells your cells what to make when they are making new cells. Which happens all the damn time. If I remember correctly you are replaced from the inner lining of the mouth all the way down to the anus every... I want to say 7 days, but it might be 17 or whatever, and they don't replicate the fastest. We get completely new skin every 21 days etc. etc. If the DNA doesn't change, but you are shapechanged(via focus or whatever) for that period of time, that SHOULD cause alot of problems.

Chris
mfb
yeah, but it's also possible that such concerns are handled by, well, magic. the spell makes your shapeshifted cells produce shapeshifted cells, or somesuch.
WeaverMount
I think the samples of a transmogrified animal revert to the original state under scientific observation just like orichalcum.
hyzmarca
The easiest way to clone dinosaurs is to simply extract DNA from fossils.
WeaverMount
fossils don't have DNA
mfb
of course they do. how do you think they pass on their genetic information to later generations of fossils?
bibliophile20
QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 1 2007, 02:33 AM)
of course they do. how do you think they pass on their genetic information to later generations of fossils?

Tenure? Teaching graduate-level courses?
hyzmarca
Crystals are involved.
Mercer
So, given the various ways dinosaurs can be introduced to the setting, aren't we in need of some stats for tyranosaurs and velociraptors, not only for the inevitable Jurassic Park rip off (I've already run mine using PAoNA and PAoE in place of dinosaurs), but also for those crazy-ass places with poor OSHA oversight that are going to be using cybered up T-Rex's as guard animals?
Stahlseele
cue heroin pissing cybernetic dinosaurs which can shoot laser-beams from their eyes @.@
Kyoto Kid
...that's "shoot frickin laser beams from their eyes."
WeaverMount
I don't know how long natural mummies can last. Could you get DNA out mummified zombie flesh? *uhg* that sounds so D&D
tisoz
Originally, I had a much longer post about the Shapechange idea to create dinosaurs, but it seemed like I was introducing way too much extraneous information. But...Wow! So here are some further thoughts...

The old Transformation spell would be a better choice. Why? It replaces any human thought with the shapechanged animals thoughts and Attributes. See about designing that spell. For that matter, create a shapechange spell that explicitly states it changes cells at the DNA level.

I think the Shapechange spell already changes cells into exact replicas of the animal being shapechanged into. If it is a rattlesnake that is being changed into, the venom is going to be rattlesnake venom, and when it bites it is going to inject rattlesnake venom, not the Shapechanged persons masked cells. Once cells are separated from the original Shapechanged being, I think they hold their form as long as the spell is sustained. So if the snake bites someone, they should sustain the spell long enough for the venom to work.

If DNA is extracted and used to clone new cells, then the spell is dropped, the original extracted DNA would probably revert, but the copies that have replicated are not magical in any way and are not going to change form, but keep replicating. If you are worried about the reverted human DNA botching the clone, keep sustaining the spell until the clone is mature, then drop the spell and have a miniscule amount of human DNA in the clone.

I can see the GM not wanting to let a PC Shapechange into an extinct animal for personal reasons, but I think it should be allowed under the rules of the game as those animals were mundane and within the limits stated in the spell description.
Mercer
Unless you consider Extinction at a more metaphorical level. We tend to think of SR magic like a science, because we're gamers and there are a lot of numbers involved. But I think there's something to be said for a less rational (or more magical) theory on magic. A creature that has become extinct could gone from the living memory of the Earth, and that could make it an invalid option for the transformation spells.

Its a theory, anyway, if you don't want Shapechanged tyrannosaurs rampaging through downtown Seattle (although that is a gang tactic you don't see often enough, gangers shapechanged into rhinos and starting panics). Likewise, I could see college students who need course credit getting Shapechanged (with sustaining foci, obviously) for months at a time, or a biologist who can turn into a wolf spending a year among them in the wild-- perhaps even falling in love with a Wolf Shapeshifter. (What a family reunion that would make.)

Which has less to do with dinosaurs than I originally intended, but its an interesting line of speculation. If you could Shapechange into dinosaurs, and the transformation was complete, someone would be using college interns to produce dinosaur eggs. It might even be cheaper than genetic engineering, since you don't have to pay interns. (Although you do have to pay the mage for the spell and the karma, so maybe it works out about the same.)

Edit: I don't think that Shapechanged DNA would work for cloning purposes; that much magic and technology together would be far too unpredictable.
TBRMInsanity
I guess as people have stated above you can argue for or against anything. I am just saying that if one of my players tried to doe something like that I would crush it along the lines I have stated above and I would encourage other GMs to use similar logic to stop obvious game breaking. Shadowrun is suppose to be fun, not an attempt to break the system at every chance possible. If that is what you want to do, go play Munchkin.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
cue heroin pissing cybernetic dinosaurs which can shoot laser-beams from their eyes @.@

That reminds me, what ever happened to emo samurai? I miss that guy.
Lagomorph
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 1 2007, 11:01 AM)
cue heroin pissing cybernetic dinosaurs which can shoot laser-beams from their eyes @.@

That reminds me, what ever happened to emo samurai? I miss that guy.

heh, I was just thinking the same thing acutally
Stahlseele
The Who ?
Fortune
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
The Who ?

Nah! That's a different bunch of dinosaurs. wink.gif
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 4 2007, 05:03 AM)
The Who ?

Nah! That's a different bunch of dinosaurs. wink.gif

so if one were to clone them, would one get small, kinda greyish loud dinosaurs?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 4 2007, 05:03 AM)
The Who ?

Nah! That's a different bunch of dinosaurs. wink.gif

...egads, y'all know how to make one feel old. grinbig.gif

Then again I saw a Geico Commercial yesterday which featured a balding Peter Frampton. Scary....
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