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Karaden
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
3 (average stat) + 4 points muscle toner + rating 4 active soft, + reflex recorder + smartgun and I have 14 dice, the same as an all time great.

I would hardly call someone with rating 4 muscle toner (Avalability 20), a rating 4 skillwire, an active soft for that spesific skill, and a reflex recorder for that spesific skill (Which by the description must be trained by using a spesific skill repeatedly, suggesting that you need to use a spesific skill some before it can do anything for you. Also, since you lack an actual skill, reflex recorder can't help you at all) and a smartlinked gun 'average guy off the street'. Joe average is 3 stat, maybe a smartgun link because they are so common. That is a dice pool of 4. Also keep in mind that most of the stuff you mentioned can also be used by the pros. They too can have muscle toner, reflex recorder, and a smartgun.

Much as I'd love to go on and on about this, I'm going to try and make this my last post on the subject of skill levels, since that isn't what the OP is about. If someone wants to get into it about relevent skills, open up a new topic to discuss it. But one thing I'd like to say is that I do agree that the exact ratings they give in the book don't mesh with how the rules work out, but that doesn't change the fact that a skill 6 or 7 person is -supposed- to be exceptional.
Fortune
QUOTE (Karaden)
But one thing I'd like to say is that I do agree that the exact ratings they give in the book don't mesh with how the rules work out, but that doesn't change the fact that a skill 6 or 7 person is -supposed- to be exceptional.

And all I've been saying is that mere possession of a skill (or three) at exceptional levels does not automatically equate to a High, let alone Luxury Lifestyle.
Pendaric
There seems to be some bleed over from the SR4 forum into this, the SR3 forum, in this thread. Lets keep it separate so we can advise one another with some chance of knowing what we're talking about.
I don't mean to imply everyone is doing it but it is happening.

As to the challenge at hand, I reiterate and highlight my advise about a believable world. If you allow the rules to be your only guide and they allow a player to make hundreds of thousands with a few dice rolls then look at it logically. Why isn't everyone doing it? And I don't mean look at the stats look at the real world first because the stats are an imperfect tool, that you as a Ref, are there to step in and preserve game reality.
perhaps the question should therefore should be not how can I allow my mundane PC's to make large quantities of cash but rather why is the wizzer getting an easy time of it?
So the rules say gold is easy to find? Common sense say's it is not. On account of most of the gold producing areas are owned by someone and guarded because they have a literal gold mine. Some places in the wilderness may allow for some small scrapes to be gotten with some hard work, but they sure are not in the Sprawl and therefore require boarder hopping. perhaps there are paracritters out there too, does your wizzer have survival as a skill? Etc
As ref your job is to present challenges concurrent with a realistic game world, if the game dev's have missed a trick that you find, look first to the game world reality for your answer. My point is not to allow the rules to blind you to the possibilities and probililties that would make for a better game.
Platinum
QUOTE (Pendaric)
If you allow the rules to be your only guide and they allow a player to make hundreds of thousands with a few dice rolls then look at it logically. Why isn't everyone doing it?

Skill/Ability, time, risk. It's a true reflection of life. Those who risk more gain more.
Those who have unique abilities are few and far between. and of those people, who are willing to take the risk. Time. Alot of people are not willing to invest the time in things.

People who take shadowruns aren't in it just for the money. They are 9/10 adrenaline junkies or people who want to make a difference, or don't have any choice.

Who spends a million dollars to come away with piddly cash? I say let the money flow like water, but restrict things through availability.
Fortune
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jan 7 2008, 01:37 AM)
There seems to be some bleed over from the SR4 forum into this, the SR3 forum, in this thread.

This is an SR3 Only forum? Really? When did that happen? Where are the forums for SR1 and SR2? As far as I knew, this was a forum for general Shadowrun questions, as opposed to those that are SR4-specific.

Personally, I can't wait for the Powers-that-be to combine the two, and get rid of the arbirary and confusing multiple forum format.
Karaden
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Pendaric @ Jan 7 2008, 01:37 AM)
There seems to be some bleed over from the SR4 forum into this, the SR3 forum, in this thread.

This is an SR3 Only forum? Really? When did that happen? Where are the forums for SR1 and SR2? As far as I knew, this was a forum for general Shadowrun questions, as opposed to those that are SR4-specific.

Personally, I can't wait for the Powers-that-be to combine the two, and get rid of the arbirary and confusing multiple forum format.

I agree, this forum isn't spesificly for SR3, it just isn't spesificly for SR4.
Angelone
It does help eliminate confusion though. For example when someone mentioned skill limits I was scratching my head for a moment because I wasn't aware of any in SR3.

Most people aren't going to make the kind of money to get a high/luxury lifestyle because, they don't have the will, opportunity, or skills to do so. Just like now. Why doesn't everyonewith military training become a mercenary or criminal? Most people won't even seriously think about attempting that kind of lifestyle.
Mercer
The question of skill ratings becomes a little more vague in SR4 though, since a character with a 2 Skill and a 6 Stat is going to be the equal of a guy who's 4/4 or 6/2 in the other direction. At that point, the discussion would be about dice pools (but even so, I don't see Dice Pools automatically equating to a lifestyle).
kzt
I'd say that if some one has 12 dice in Cooking they can make a medium lifestyle, more if they have social skills. But that means they get up at 4am every morning to go head down to the produce markets, etc. All the things that being a professional chef means you have to do.

It's kind of hard to be a shadowrunner and be a professional chef. Not impossible, but hard.
i101
It took me some time to translate the houserule i created into english language. Srry, had no time, and i have to admit that i am a lazy c#²t.
Anyways, here we go, i upped the pdf on my webspace, and it would be nice to hear your comments on this. Advices and improvments are welcome.

Houserule: Making money during downtime.pdf

smile.gif
Riley37
Even without Enchanting, I see other ways that mages have more earning capacity. Any mage with Heal can do a lot of business, because heck, I'd pay extra to have my sprained ankle magically healed, rather than take a week to heal. If they can also summon a Force 3 Spirit of Man, it's one service to say "use your power continuously on anyone who sits in that chair" (while pointing at a chair in an emergency room, or the aftercare room of a Street Doc lab). Even if the spirit says "no dice, chummer, each patient is a new service", then when the spirit finishes, the mage summons another one; might take a long lunch break to recover from Drain, but still, that's a lot of castings every day, and I bet that one can find people paying more than 100 nuyen for each casting. Freight companies, taxis and courier services will pay for spirits use of Movement power. And so on.

Sammies have the drawback that although people prefer to pay for the *best* violence (because having the second-best violence can suck), there isn't quite as much ongoing need for violence, as there is for healing, transportation, and other production of nonviolent goods and services.
Fuchs
Sammies can diversify though:
- Instructor (get trained by the best)
- Bodyguard (meanest looking/best looking niches)
- Bounty hunter (more time than a mage with enchanting to keep a contact network cultivated)

And there can be lots of demand for security work - from fixers/smugglers/street docs/etc. wanting a backup for a meeting/business deal to extra security in a club, bouncer, etc.

Sammies also make good partners in any team effort to make some extra credits - like running an escort service together with the face of the team, or gathering materials for enchanting with the mage in the wilderness, or smuggling goods with the rigger.
Siege
Which is why Samurai should always diversify, having one or two backup skills related to situations that don't require violence.

-Siege
Fuchs
And while it was mentioned before - having such a "side business" be a team effort opens a lot of opportunities for the game, and also makes it easier to give such enterprises more attention without sidelining the rest of the players.

Instead of the mage enchanting stuff, and either simply rolling dice, or having a solo run, it's the mage gathering stuff in the wilderness, protected by the sammie after the face brought them accross the border checkpoint while the hacker and rigger are on overwatch, scanning for information and threats. Later, the face assists in selling, with the samurai covering meetings, and the rigger bringing the merchandise, once all is secure, after the hacker looked for buyers - and threats.

Same for smuggling, or weapon customising (which would be ideal for a samurai), or escort service operations, they all are better done as a team, more fun for everyone.
i101
@Fuchs: True. But what if PC not always cooperate as a team!? For example it happend that last time our group mage needed the team rigger for transportation, but the muscles he got from a good connection. He didnt choose a teammate.
What i want to say is that teammebers can exclude themselfs for reasons of not trusting each other that much. Out of game the Rigger knew that the Mage wanted to sell his enchanted stuff, but Ingame he didnt even ask. He was so broke and took the money without asking. While the curious AND greedy Orcsam for sure wouldnt help out if his cut wasnt bigger.

Anyways liked your job suggestions.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Dec 14 2007, 01:28 PM) *
Ok here's some number just thrown together. I'm trying to close the range but here's what I have so far.

Pay Per Week
17 == 1000 nuyen.gif
12 == 500 nuyen.gif
7 == 200 nuyen.gif
2 == 100 nuyen.gif

Hours/Week
-1 == <15
-6 == 15-30
-11 == >30

Flexibility
2 == Own Boss
-3 == Swing Shift
-8 == Tight Schedule

Visibility
2 == Low or No Visibility
-3 == High Visibility

This is going with the Concept of trying to keep Qualities on Multiples of 5. This swings from -20 to 20. I took contacts out of the equation, basically those could be bought or earned as normal contacts. I shed the Luxury Lifestyle job which would of been 10,000 nuyen.gif per week. Because making 520,000 nuyen.gif a year and shadowrunning is beyond me.

What is a -20 point job?
High Visibility no control over your 30+ hours per week. But only making 100 nuyen.gif per week. So you're making 3 nuyen.gif per hour as a high profile person's consort. You're seen on the arm of a trid star and you're really just with him for the fame not the little scraps he gives you. Either that or they actually own you, the fact that you get any nuyen per week at all is something you're thankful for.

What is a 20 job?
A Low visibility job where you work 10 hours a week when you feel like it, and make 1000 nuyen.gif per week. This would be a back alley dealer with the good stuff. People contact him when they want stuff, and he tells them when he'll meet them and where. The person has to be able to make stuff of a quality worth this.



I am curious... Why do you not just use the Day Job Negative Quality for this?

As an aside, our table uses the downtime solution to finance our lifestyles, ranging from Middle to High (and to provide additional plot points as well)...

Keep the Faith
Critias
Shedim thread!
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