I would agree about the sustaining part except that he is using his initiation power to sustain it, spending Karma.

Edit: And I have looked forever to find some line which says you break sustaining spells when you sleep if you are using a Focus Item or Initiation power. It would solve a TON of issues for me. Granted I would expect a re-roll if that did turn out to be true.

Also he has to still make the attack roll but at 12 force, it won't likely limit his hits.

So its listed as (Magic / 2) + DV.

I was thinking about having it be around 4 so in this case it would be:

(6 / 2) + 3 = 6S

plus net hits.

It's not game unbalancing really, but he never has to worry about running out of ammo which has happened in some of my games longer fights.

wait, he quickened a force 12 levitate?

does he realise that as soon as there is any ward, anywhere, that this is going to complicate things massively?

Jaid is right, this guy is going to have serious trouble with wards and such. First off any time his orb passes through a ward it'll alert the person who made it. Second it'll have to make an opposed test against the barrier every single time (though the orb will have 36 dice, so maybe not such a big deal, but against a force 12 barrier (24 dice) there is a chance it'll be disrupted). Third, you should be more then justified in either a. making it impossable to control the orb through the barrier or b. give a -force to his DP.

Speaking of DP what are you having him roll to hit people with this?

I'd assume your giving him the standard spellcasting + magic, but that is being very soft on him. Make him use exotic ranged weapon + agility, as that is what this is, an exotic ranged weapon (One of the many disadvantages of using this over the standard fling spell)

Overall I think this is alot of work to get a 6S spell at no drain. I mean if he can't do stunbolt at force 6 and handle the.. what 2 drain, it causes, then how did he survive making this sphere. As a bonus, don't forget that since the orb does stun damage, it won't be able to injure drones, walls, or anything else inanimate.

But of course he -has- spent 12 karma to create a highly ineffective weapon, so I suppose you can give him some sort of a break. If this was some sort of character concept sort of thing (magneto) then cool, but if this is a power game attempt (which it seems to be) then I say stick it to him.

As a final little thing, let me see if I can do a pro/con list here (as compared to stunbolt of force 6, which is basicly what it is)

Pro:
Doesn't leave magic to be traced down by.
Doesn't have drain (Oh no, drain of 2S, please don't hurt me)
Can be used from the astral plane (Be very careful about allowing this, as it may be one of the things he is going for, and I don't see why he couldn't do it. Be sure to give him penelties to try and hit people though)

Con:
Sets off astral alarms all over the place.
Can only move 44 meters per IP.
Kinda stands out ("Sir... why is there a large metal sphere floating next to you?" and note that it -will- set off metal detectors)
Cost him 12 Karma to make
Can potinetally be dispelled (not likely, but it could happen.)
Can be misplaced and lost forever (Be inventive, a simple door slamming shut could cut his LOS needed to move it. Really, painfully easy to lose this if he isn't very careful.)
Can be tracked back to him if somehow lost.
Might require an investment in a new skill and attribute to use proplerly (see above about having him use exotic ranged weapon + agility. Just because he is good at magic doesn't mean he is good at making a floating ball hit someone, that is where the actual fling spell comes in.)
Did I mention it cost him 12 Karma? I did? Oh, well maybe that is because it cost him 12 freaking Karma!

All in all if you've got it set down at 6S for the damage, and follow all this stuff I don't see it being too bad (untill he tries killing people with it from the astral plane). It did cost him 12 Karma, which is a rather large investment (What, two runs or so?), so as long as he doesn't try breaking the game with it, I don't see why you shouldn't allow it. As stated it isn't really any better then casting a force 6 stunbolt.

isn't force twelve magic comparable to a tac nuke in terms of legality, no matter what the spell?

Details....

What is this "legality" that you speak of?

Traditionally in Shadowrun (although I am not sure if it is mentioned as of yet in SR4), the use, or even mere possession of any type of Magic or Magical apparatus of Force 3 or over is restricted, and licenses are necessary (when they can actually be acquired) for any and all such usage.

OK well I think im going to go with:

DV = kg / 3

So basically 4 points for his 12 kg ball.

That will give him 7S.

Btw, the player figured that his character was very into vintage movies and grew up watching Starwars so much that when he was one of the lucky few to become magical, he would become a Jedi Knight.

I already had a huge talk about Light Sabers and got him to drop that atleast.

Thanks for the help everyone. As always, this board amazes me with the sheer amount of support and help everyone gives.

Maybe someday I will understand SR enough to help others =)

Day

Hummn, you should check out this discussion:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18306

Boo! I purposely avoided checking out that Jedi thread earlier.
I couldn't be unhappier if I had been Rick Rolled.


...and you know, if lightsabers are simply going to be a manifestation of magic and the will, wouldn't they have been more accurate referring to the tradition as using the Schwartz? *ducks*

Mercer, I don't know about you, but if you're ruling that body equals the threshold needed to lift something then there's a huge gap in your logic.

Harley-Davidson Scorpion, a chopper. Body of 8. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure there isn't any bikes running around that weigh 800kg... (almost a ton).

And you're saying that a lockheed optic-x stealth vtol drone weighs between 200 and 400kg?

i'd probably say things weigh approximately body x 10 . .
but if you make them too light levitate becomes WAY too powerfull . .
Imagine some magician throwing TANKS around O.o

Well I kind of decided that the rules we would use are the Fling rules. Mostly because under levitate it says that objects flung into other objects should use the ranged attack rules (Fling).

So I am not letting him throw anything larger then 12 kg (F in kg) at anyone for the purpose of an attack.

But since the spell was sustained, his hits are already determined, thus so is the weight he can lift... right?

Since the spell is sustained the specific object is determined and cannot change without recasting.

You cast Levitate on an object, and you can levitate that object. If you want to switch from the cue ball to the 8 ball you have to recast.

That still seems on the light side. I mean even small cars are going to be a ton or so, and I thought bikes where supposed to be really heavy. Like more in the 200-300Kg range.

Also, about 4 tons seems absurdly light for a yacht (then again, it is super cheap.) but still, large boats tend to weigh dozens of tons at least.

I think your going to have to make a more call by call decision.

P.S. When I say ton, I don't mean a metric ton. I mean 2000 lb or about 900 Kg

Oh, I agree it's still way too light for many of the vehicles - but once a mage needs more than 15-25 successes to levitate them it's pretty much moot.

edit: and I was trying not to make too many variables ala rigger2

hrm, okay . . somehow my body x 10 seemed plausible for drones an bikes with a body of 5 or something like that . . i owned a motor bike once, they are not THAT heavy . . a Human of not too much strength and body has to be able to lift it if it were to tip over *g*

I can't believe I missed that simple fact about levitate and sustaining.

The player was under the assumption that once you cast the spell, its always in effect and that he could just change targets at will.

I never questioned that fact.

Thanks for the clarity.

well, the steel lynx is the heaviest drone in the base book, and putting it at 50 kg, or 110 lbs seems about right for it's size.


the scoot weighs in at 36kg, or 79 lbs, which seems about right for a future-materials Vespa/Mo-Ped

the sport bikes are 80, 84kg - so 176-184 lbs, liftable, but not really carryable for most people (str 8 to carry without a test per pg. 130)

while the scorpion is a whopping 136kg or about 300 lbs - maybe a bit light but close enough for guesswork.


the spirit comes out to 350kg, or 771 lbs...very light for a car, but then, have you ever seen a Geo or a SmartCar?

The rest of the cars work out a bit light too, but I'm assuming that the move away from sheet-metal to lighter composites isn't going away anytime soon, so it's probably not too far off for a "two-hands & flashlight" type quick estimate.

wait, that means high STR chars CAN just simply go and lift off a bike from the ground and carry it away? O.o
and a good done Troll STR Built with some luck/Cyber/Bio could possible lift small CARS? x.x . .

Well, from my quick-estimate table:

only the scoot and the two sport bikes were carryable by orks or enhanced-strength humans.

Magically strong or cybered trolls with 14 strength could carry a scorpion without a test

but noone could carry even the lightest car - it'd take strength 35.

you can LIFT STRx15 Kilo without test . .
you can CARRY STRx10 kilo without test
according to SR4 Core Book
everything above that needs a test and every success gives you 15 more kilo for lift or 10 kilo more for carry . . with STR of 15 you'd be able to LIFT 225 kilo without test and be able to CARRY 150 kilo without test . .
let's say you throw your 15 dice and come up with about 5 to 10 successes that goes up to and above 300 kilo for lift and 200 kilo for carry O.o
and then there's still the option of cyber-limbs maxed out for strength and redlining them O.o

Well, yes -

but:

A) at 350 kilos for the lightest car, even the troll at his racial augmented maximum strength of 15 is going to need 8 successes to lift over his head for one turn, or 20 successes to carry for a turn.

B) one is rather unlikely to get very far before blowing one of those tests...and I wouldn't want to be under (or even near) the cybered troll when he loses his grip.


still, it'd make those strongman competitions a lot more interesting.

edit: maths

Just a FYI. I own a sport motorcycle. Its a 500cc engine (the norm is 600cc for a sport motorcycle). Wet, (that is with oil fuel and all that) its officially listed as 409lbs. (Roughly 185kg).

Taking a Honda GoldWing (one of the biggest cruiser motorcycles around), its official wet weight is, 911 lbs. Nearing half a ton.

You don't carry motorcycles around, maybe Mr. Universe could, but in general, it doesn't happen.

Well, they are talking about augmented trolls that would make Mr. Universe's lift and carry capacity seem like a bookish school girl.

For reference, the steel lynx is about the size of a human (see Fields of Fire if you have access to that). 50 kg is way too low IMO, should be closer to the 200 kg you can lift with a threshold of 1 on levitate. Seeing strength 3 chars carrying a Steel Lynx around would feel wrong for me.

Like I said: two hands + flashlight estimate - I was just going for a heavier-than-a-person, less-than-2-tons motorcycle.

Take it as the absolute low-end estimate, with the high end as current weights. Assuming progress is made in polymer and composite materials, that's not unreasonable.

Weigth is not a purely negative property for outdoor combat drones, as you don´t want the drone to flip upside down the first occasion it gets. So I do think if armor got lighter they would simply add more. But your POV is valid, they might actually be pretty light, we don´t know.

My bad, it does only have a body 4, but it can mount 2, as it comes equiped with 1 as part of it being what it is, then you can mount a second one. So you can in fact mount 2 on them, and the recoil would likely be enough to knock it over if it is trying to fire two LMGs on Full Auto if it weighs a meisly 50 Kg. Of course even firing a single LMG when it weighs only 50Kg is going to be kind of sketchy.

no.

fine, if we're going to split hairs about what the RAW implies, then *technically* the lynx *requires* a weapon mount in order to *use* the weapon, because otherwise it can only *carry* the weapon.

seriously, if you want to just give out extra weapon slots, go ahead. i don't personally see the need. nor do i see the need to restrict to one weapon system active, for that matter. (i do understand that they might have some concerns about people trying to do 5 LMG bursts with 50 rounds in one burst, but that's just as easily resolved by saying "each weapon is considered separately" and adding in a simple rule about splitting dicepools between all guns. i can't say i'm all that worried about some tricked-out rigger splitting 20 dice between 5 targets to get 4 dice per shot, really...

in point of fact, it's quite easy to get the guns to be reasonably accurate. the smart firing platform (which, for the record, can be mounted on a drone without any sort of house rules at all, since guns can by default have accessories, nothing changes in that from drone rules, and smart firing platforms are gun accessories) you can easily get pilot 3 + targetting 3 + smartlink + hits on a sensor test (or swap out sensor for pilot if you don't want to actively target).

given you can share data between them, i would think it stands to reason that you could to a teamwork test on all the sensor tests, which means that it shouldn't be too hard to get +3-4 dice from the teamwork test for active targetting.

and heck, if you upgrade the platforms to pilot 4, targetting 4 (i don't think you'd need to boost the response, they seem to me like something that would at least be security gear) you can get 10 dice on the test. if you have them all firing wide bursts, that's gonna be hard to dodge against.

in any case, like i said, if you treat all guns as separate, there is no 50 round burst.

I see no reason why we couldn't have multiple drones linked together to fire on a specific point/target. We can do that today with multiple weapons. Give current tech 65 years and I think it'd work even better, and be seriously dangerous.