Kyoto Kid
Jan 21 2008, 09:19 PM
QUOTE (Fortune) |
QUOTE (me) | @Fortune: True, but Geasa also have negative effects that Foci don't. |
That is immaterial to the matter at hand. You were discussing abilities and options open to adepts as opposed to mages. I was merely helping you out with one little adept option you happened to omit. |
...fair enough.
Outside of sinking Karma into Initiation and increasing MA, Geasa are the only other "pure" (for lack of a better term) options an adept has. Street Magic did not include the Adept and Infusion foci that appeared in SOTA '64, though I actually don't mind that much as they did seem a bit of a stretch.
Personally I tend to steer away from Geasa for the most part. Foci have their limitations too (passing though astral barriers, astral signature, and possible addiction) but overall tend not to have crippling side affects on the character as Geasa do.
Now I will say that a couple metamagic techniques can also help augment the Adept's abilities (Infusion for one comes to mind here), Also if a GM allows an adept to have a Mentor Spirit there can be additional benefits there. It's too bad the Ways for Adepts are only fluff and were not handled more like a tradition.
Of course now I'm getting into the realm of houserules...
[edit]
@ElFenrir: part of what you mentioned is the base of my argument. In 4th ed. Usually my adepts end up with at best Improved Reflexes 1 and MA of 5. I can see where people are coming from on optimising, but in that light I feel I can do just as well if not better, going the "way of the mundane" altogether and just working with Cyber, Bio, Gentech, and Nanotech. OK so I can't slap a spirit upside the head anymore and make him say ouch.
What this says to me is the Adept as we have known her from previous editions has become kind of outmoded for we can build her better though science than mystical, means. Even the Adept's "stealth" factor (e.g. being able to walk into an airport without tripping alarms for example) is easily done when one goes all bio and Gentech.
Stahlseele
Jan 21 2008, 09:31 PM
ok, that's the second thing of SR4 i find good . . rules for late awakening . . even though you still can not explain cyber in there because cyber taken before awakening will weaken magical attribute and thus effectively stop you from awakening <.< . .
but into mages i would basically cram everything that helps save karma later on . . mnemonic enhancer in 3rd, the adept power of linguistics, and that one meta technic
Glyph
Jan 21 2008, 09:39 PM
QUOTE (Fortinbras) |
I think that's a GM call, but I don't see why critical strike would apply to one form of melee combat and not another. |
It's not really a "GM call" though, unless the GM is using house rules, since the power is explicitly limited to unarmed attacks.
On adepts, I like that not every adept power is "balanced" with respect to its technological equivalent. Making everything the same takes away all of the fun of character creation, both from the min-maxing side (since everything is the same), and the roleplaying side (since you aren't making any actual sacrifices for the sake of your character concept).
I agree that for absolute min-maxing, a bit of bioware optimizes an adept - and you can't really say "might as well make a sammie", because such an adept will be better than a pure adept or a pure sammie, although either will usually be more well-rounded in other areas.
I disagree that adepts are horribly gimped in reflex enhancement, though. Assuming a Magic of 5 (although adepts get more of an advantage than mages if they start out with a Magic of 6) - you can get improved reflexes: 2 and have 2 power points for other stuff, or you can get improved reflexes: 3 and have no other powers, but have more IP than any sammie can (because of Availability rules at char-gen). A pure adept won't be quite as combat-tough as a pure sammie, but is still decent, combat-wise.
I will admit that Improved Physical Attribute is horribly gimped. Even for a "pure" adept, I don't see myself ever taking that power. You could probably halve the point costs for it, and it would still remain pretty balanced.
ThreeGee
Jan 21 2008, 09:40 PM
QUOTE |
Frankly, I cyber up everyone, even my Mages, and believe people who think "Sensitive System isn't a real drawback, munchkin!" are rather naive and misguided since it basically means the characters in question are for all intents and purposes swearing off Attention Coprocessors, Radar Sensors, Cybereyes, Encephalons, SkillWires and Expert systems for the rest of their lives. |
This is pretty much the definition of being a munchkin...
Fortune
Jan 21 2008, 09:43 PM
QUOTE (Fortinbras) |
I think that's a GM call, but I don't see why critical strike would apply to one form of melee combat and not another. |
My guess would be the first line of the Power's description.
QUOTE ( SR4 pg. 187) |
This power uses magic to increase the Damage Value of your unarmed attacks, as you strike with more proficiency and power. |
Fortune
Jan 21 2008, 09:51 PM
QUOTE (ThreeGee) |
QUOTE | Frankly, I cyber up everyone, even my Mages, and believe people who think "Sensitive System isn't a real drawback, munchkin!" are rather naive and misguided since it basically means the characters in question are for all intents and purposes swearing off Attention Coprocessors, Radar Sensors, Cybereyes, Encephalons, SkillWires and Expert systems for the rest of their lives. |
This is pretty much the definition of being a munchkin...
|
That's a big statement.
Glyph
Jan 21 2008, 09:54 PM
QUOTE (ThreeGee) |
QUOTE | Frankly, I cyber up everyone, even my Mages, and believe people who think "Sensitive System isn't a real drawback, munchkin!" are rather naive and misguided since it basically means the characters in question are for all intents and purposes swearing off Attention Coprocessors, Radar Sensors, Cybereyes, Encephalons, SkillWires and Expert systems for the rest of their lives. |
This is pretty much the definition of being a munchkin...
|
If you think so, you're in the wrong game. Transhumanism, and selling bits and pieces of your humanity to try to get an edge over the rest of the street trash, are two of Shadowrun's major themes. Hell, the burnt-out mage was one of the original archetypes.
ElFenrir
Jan 21 2008, 10:32 PM
QUOTE |
I will admit that Improved Physical Attribute is horribly gimped. Even for a "pure" adept, I don't see myself ever taking that power. You could probably halve the point costs for it, and it would still remain pretty balanced. |
Ive always houseruled this at half cost; .5 points up to your normal maximum; 1 point up to your Racial Maximum. Thus, a Human with Agility 4 could purchase Agility 6 for 1 point...if he REALLY wanted Agility 9, it's 3 more points, but he can't go higher than that. Since he just blew 4 of his points to max out his attribute, not much left there, unless he bought the magic of 6. Sure, he rolls a lot of dice on his combat tests, but sheesh, Adepts are supposed to be rather scary instances of turning your magic inward. If a mage can melt 8 people's brains at once with an overcast Manaball out of the box, an Adept using up most(if not all, depending on how high his magic was) points on getting a lot of Sword dice is nothing. (and for the record, even with these rules in the old days, no one i know actually did this.)
I do still play Adepts and like them; one of my most fun current characters was an Adept. He did just fine in what he did; he booted heads and took names, and had a smattering of social skills tacked on as well. In an SR4 environment though; the classic Physad will have some trouble going head to head with a sam. (in SR3 it was tough for them too...but IMO, and my experience, they had a little more going for them.)
QUOTE |
If you think so, you're in the wrong game. Transhumanism, and selling bits and pieces of your humanity to try to get an edge over the rest of the street trash, are two of Shadowrun's major themes. Hell, the burnt-out mage was one of the original archetypes. |
I agree here. While someone who goes ''i want to get all the ware and stuff so i can win the game and rule the party!!!'' might need talking to...ANY character who plans on(or is forced to) run the shadows is damn well going to get every edge they can to stay alive.
Stahlseele
Jan 21 2008, 10:39 PM
exactly my sentiments . . there is no such mthing as a munchkin character in a world where you die if you're not the best you can be . . and even then you still die if you're simply STILL not good enough . . One-Trick-Ponies have every right of existance concerning the WORLD of shadowrun . . even if they play boring like hell, if you're doing it wrong/right *g*
Whipstitch
Jan 21 2008, 11:30 PM
If ThreeGee would stop for a second and take a good hard look at shadowrun characters and the world they live in, I think it'd be pretty hard for him not to admit that there is a pretty good amount of 'ware that makes perfect sense within the context of the setting for even a 3 or 4 magic wage mage to have installed.
For example, let's say you've got a talented young wage mage fresh out of college and he gets recruited by AresSpace. He's a hard working young kid, but he's got average attributes and is only professional level in his magical skills and is untrained in everything else; the only "amazing" thing about him is a magic of 4 and his family's long pedigree of being stable, reliable employees. Take that kid, slap in a Cerebral Booster 2, SkillWire 2, Trauma Dampers, tricked out rating 2 Cybereyes and suddenly you've got a star employee. Sure, it costs more than 72,000¥ once the costs of a pair of rating 2 ActiveSofts are factored in, but in exchange you get a mage who can cast well even in poor weather conditions, tosses 7 dice in both the Hardware and Aeronautics mechanics skills before high quality tools and AR schematics are factored in plus he routinely soaks the drain from Force 3 spirits completely, which is pretty damn good when you consider how useful the Guard and Movement powers are to a company whose entire business model hinges on the ability to speed things up to escape velocity and safely test new aerotechnologies. And that's just what you get with an almost painfully average career mage. The corporations efficiently do some amazingly difficult stuff on a routine basis in the Shadowrun universe, and if you think cybered mages aren't a part of that, then frankly I don't know what to tell you.
Ravor
Jan 22 2008, 01:35 AM
Well, I'd have to strongly disagree with the idea of one-trick-ponies and huge dicepools.
Glyph
Jan 22 2008, 02:27 AM
Why do people always bring up one-trick ponies and huge dice pools as if they were complementary? It is very easy to have a huge dice pool, and still have a well-rounded character. Even maxed-out builds like my pornomancer build or Cain's Mr. Lucky build are still functional characters outside of their specialties.
Kyoto Kid
Jan 22 2008, 02:47 AM
...whether or not a player decides to optimise an adept through artificial means of augmentation is pretty much up to them and I would not stop a someone from doing so in any of my campaigns as long as they followed the rules in doing so. Heck, I have a Reporter Adept /"sort of Face" character who has a fair amount of sense and headware because it fits in with her occupation and some of it (such as vidcams, audio recording and signal transmission) cannot be duplicated by the Improved Senses power.
The point for someone such as myself who would like to play a "straight" Adept is that the resulting character, no matter how well designed, will be inferior to a mundane who invests the same number of BPs into resources for augmentation. 45 BPs (cost of the Adept quality and MA of 5) translates to 225,000
, which can go a long way for building a tough combatant. Yes an Adept can eventually eclipse the Sammy but it takes a long time and a lot of Karma to do so. This is why I'm beginning to feel that the "classic" physad in Shadowrun may have sadly become yesterday's news.
Ravor
Jan 22 2008, 03:10 AM
Glyph
Because the majority of huge dicepool builds that tend to pop up aren't well rounded characters that could thrive without a team of specialists for support. I don't remember The Pornomancer off the top of my head, but Mr Lucky does seem to be one of the few that appears to be a viable character. (Not one that I would ever allow in my games, but viable none the less.)
Kyoto Kid
You see, I agree with your basic points with the exception that I personally see it as a good thing, any Awakened character going the "pure route" should be inferior to a mundane character cybering up, not for game balance reasons, but because I believe it fits with the Cyberpunk genre.
Now, if there was an actual cost to a character's soul that came from wielding mojo as opposed to simply winning life's lottery then I'd agree that the two options should be fairly equal.
Glyph
Jan 22 2008, 03:38 AM
As far as the specialist vs. generalist debate, I think specialists will tend to do better and get better paying jobs. And a team of specialists is basically one of the core game concepts.
That said, you can take specialization too far. I feel that one of the litmus tests for a character is being able to say that this character could have survived, and made a living, prior to meeting the other characters. Also, since the game involves social interactions, legwork, sneaking or infiltrating, and combat, having a character who only has skills in one of those areas sharply limits your character.
It is not hard to get high dice pools for certain specialties, though. For combat, for example, you can have someone with Agility: 5, muscle toner: 2, skill: 6 with specialization, a reflex recorder, and a smartlink, for 18 dice without hard-maxing anything, being an elf, or being an adept. That leaves you with plenty of resources available to be good in other areas.
People newer to the game can make specialists who are too limited in other areas (although it is also even easier to overgeneralize to the point of uselessness), but in my experience, specialists can still be well-rounded outside of their specialty, and hyper-specialists can still be functional outside of their specialty.
Jaid
Jan 22 2008, 03:53 AM
the cybered adept does lose out on a few things actually.
for example, a non-cybered adept will have a higher magic score. this may not sound all that great, but for some powers it is actually quite useful (for example, attribute boost) it also means they will have a higher cap for the rating of their powers... which is much more likely to come up if you use the infusion metamagic, of course
so not the most amazing thing ever, but choosing not to dilute your magic does have some benefits.
Riley37
Jan 22 2008, 10:03 AM
Another thing to consider in the balance between sammie, augmented adept, and unaugmented adept: astral perception can matter a lot. On my second session of SR4, my sammie got attacked by mosquito spirits (that had been stirred up in the first session), and immediately called the team's adept for help, because none of his electronics were useful against spirit ambushes.
Improved Attribute seems effective for taking the last point of a stat within normal range. Eg if you've already allocated the BP for STR 5 and MAG 4, you could pay 25 more BP for STR 6, or you could pay 10 more BP for MAG 5 and turn that fifth point of MAG into STR 5(6). If BOD is a priority, then it's one of the few ways to raise that stat; the only augmentation I can think of that raises BOD is the parathyroid. Trolls have BOD 10/15; is 10 MAG worth of Improved Attribute, or 8 MAG of IA and -1 MAG due to essence loss from the parathyroid, the only way to actually get that maxed-out 15 BOD? If so, then it must be darn rare.
ElFenrir
Jan 22 2008, 10:59 AM
QUOTE |
The point for someone such as myself who would like to play a "straight" Adept is that the resulting character, no matter how well designed, will be inferior to a mundane who invests the same number of BPs into resources for augmentation. 45 BPs (cost of the Adept quality and MA of 5) translates to 225,000 nuyen.gif, which can go a long way for building a tough combatant. Yes an Adept can eventually eclipse the Sammy but it takes a long time and a lot of Karma to do so. This is why I'm beginning to feel that the "classic" physad in Shadowrun may have sadly become yesterday's news. |
Yep, this is my thing. Now, i know some day the adept ALWAYS has been inferior with pure magic than a sam...but they were a lot more on even ground, IMO, under the old system.
I have played both types. My current adept i mentioned; he's good, definately, in the melee aspect(well, unarmed. He has a Mace skill for weapons of all things, but its a couple of points involved for character purposes). But compared to my sam...sam could have his way with him. Made with roughly the same amount of BPs, in a toe to toe fight, the Adept would have some trouble.
Now, the point you make at the end deserves some thought...Adepts come out of the box weaker, but eventually get stronger. Eventually. It takes a loooot of time and karma. The Sam, on the other hand, with the same amount of karma, can max out a BUNCH of skills and his Edge probably besides, along with his attributes, so he still wouldn't be that far behind the adept all told(but, well, a 300 Karma character is a 300 Karma character. They are all pretty scary.)
Now, i can also understand the argument in a cyberpunk game, magic should take a backseat. I dont agree necessarily, but i understand. If it were any other cyberpunk game, well, most of them dont have magic. To me, Shadowrun is always about combining the two. And yes, as i said, even in SR3, an out of the box Sam was still a little scarier than the out of the box Adept, but they were on more equal ground. And with Adepts able to buy Power Points at a pretty even rate, they increased at a little bit more of an even rate, too. (Initation was sort of the 'Icing on the Cake'' that sent them past the mundane cyber.)
I guess my thing is that the Adept has gone back and forth and back again over time; started too powerful, was cut back to near nothing, was made nice and solid in 3e, as well as introducing new things with them... but then, while certain aspects of the adept moved forward(lesser cost of many powers), and that certain KINDS of adepts certainly moved forward(tech/hacking/face adepts really are awesome), the classic, archetypical, physad seemed to move back a bit again. And it's funny...powers cost less and have seemed to been improved in some ways, and there are tons of physad powers...but something just is holding them back a bit. Most other classes have stayed solid the entire time, but the poor Adept seems to get yanked around quite a bit.
Kyoto Kid
Jan 22 2008, 04:13 PM
...ElFenrir, thank you.
I've observed the same since 1st ed, and agree, that in 3rd they were probably at their best. The one things that did give them a bit of an edge, particularly a melee based adept as the original KK (#103) was the counterattack [not to be confused with the 4th ed counterstrike power]. She survived very well with only a 2d6 initiative because of this and a fairly high skill + combat pool (ahhh, for the old version of the Combat Sense power). In some ways she was more dangerous when on the defensive and actually could use an opponent's higher speed against them (as they had more IPs to spread their combat pool over. Because the Improved Reflexes in 3rd ed worked like Wired reflexes (adding also to Reaction) she was also a tad quicker.
I just feel that in the case of the "classic" Physad, magic shouldn't take a seat in the back of the Archetype bus just because SR is Cyberpunk as magic is so ingrained in the game to begin with. Actually magic in the form of Spirits, Awakened Critters, & Spells tend to frequently take the "driver's seat" (as has been discussed Ad nauseam in the "Magic vs. Mundane" threads that pop up from time to time).
...my two zloty's worth
Whipstitch
Jan 22 2008, 04:46 PM
Again, I rather feel like asking so what? Nine times out of ten you can make a Samurai better in several specializations by figuring out a way to make him an Adept, so I think it's rather hard to argue that magic is taking a backseat in this one; one could easily argue that BOTH archetypes are being "denigrated", it just depends on your perspective. The fact of the matter is as a pure adept you're for all intents and purposes giving up the option of really progressing through nuyen, and don't know what to tell you if you don't expect that to slow you down.
Ravor
Jan 22 2008, 05:15 PM
Not much I can add to Whipstitch's post, other then to say that I disagree with the idea that magic does take the "driver's seat" in the from of Spirits/Spells/Critters if all of the rules are being properly applied and the DM assumes that the corps don't pay retarded children to design their countermeasures, if anything runners are usually better off choosing the mundane over the mystical if both options are possible.
pbangarth
Jan 24 2008, 05:43 AM
There is one, I guess fluff, aspect that I haven't seen people address yet.
As it is today, and as I see the Shadowrun future being depicted, there are vast areas of the world in which the cutting edge of technology is not available, for financial reasons if nothing else. Even the allegedly ubiquitous internet of today is inaccessible in many parts of the world. Much less high-tech medical facilities.
On the other hand, there are precious few places on Earth where the mana wouldn't flow. So, there should be large populations from which it would be less likely that technologically enhanced people would come, but yet magically enhanced people would be as likely to come as anywhere else. Therefore, there should be some places where the people who stand out (shadowrunners?) would more likely be magically enhanced than technologically enhanced. It is from just such a population that you might find runners who have opted for the purely magical route, despite the 'min-max' advantages of mixed techno-mages.
Once their talents do stand out, they would be drawn to centres of intrigue and commerce, there to interact with the full range of runners. It seems to me there is lots of reason for there to be people who have chosen or have chosen for them a path without technology.
Doesn't that make sense?
Ravor
Jan 24 2008, 05:55 AM
Sure, it makes sense, provided that the "pure" Awakened realizes that by not embracing technology he is simply weighing himself down.
It then becomes a roleplaying issue whether or not his identity is tied up enough in his "purity" that he is willing to accept being "second tier" in his new stomping grounds or if he too is willing to evolve and embrace technology in order to keep SOTA.
pbangarth
Jan 24 2008, 06:31 PM
Alright then, Ravor, but is there no room in the Shadowrun universe you espouse for the character (not player) who sees that technology is limiting in the long run, and chooses to bide his time and grow his magic into power?
I understand that having a big bang right away is good for business, but everyone, no matter how tough, has to pick the fights he can win. An astute character would do that whether he is cybered or pure magic. So, if you are correct and the pure-magic beginner is at a disadvantage in the beginning, then I guess he would have to take the smaller jobs for longer. This kind of decision is made thousands of times every day by businesses large and small.
This may or may not be attractive to the player of that character, but game-years down the road, when his character rocks, it may not be so hard to take.
Whipstitch
Jan 24 2008, 07:26 PM
I doubt that either I or Ravor would argue with that. There's no law anywhere set in stone that Adepts can't try and shoot for purity in order to amp powers as much as possible, it just takes a long time to pay off.
DireRadiant
Jan 24 2008, 07:27 PM
There is the One True Way for all Adepts.
All MUST Follow it.
Now can some remind which is the One True Way?
No arguments please.
Kyoto Kid
Jan 25 2008, 02:35 AM
...not wanting ot go into frenzy of "he said she said" quote snippets
I had a response pretty much written up during my lunch break but had to get back to work before proofing and submitting it. So had a little more time to think as well.
On the subject of Adepts, yes I am a bit jaded. Over the past three revisions (prior to 4th) they have been my favourite archetype (hence why my longest running character is one). ElFenrir said it right in that Adepts have gone through more changes from edition to edition than any of the other main archetypes. Originally the Physical Adept appeared not in the core rules but as an supplemental archetype in the first Grimiore. They were also designed as primarily a combat oriented character. It was not until late in the run of 3rd ed that we saw the Social, Artistic, and Techno adepts (SOTA '64).
I guess my one beef is that of all the archetypes (mages included) the Adept in 4th ed has the worst progression within her concept. As I previously mentioned, even Mages have a several other options for enhancing their abilities without raising Magic Attribute. The Adept basically has two: Geasa (and again thank you Fortune for pointing my omission out), and Initiation + MA improvement. Given there was no upward adjustment in the suggested karma award from previous editions the Adept's "slow track" has turned into a literal crawl. Everyone likes to have their character improve and grow as they play. However when it takes between a month or two of weekly sessions to see any core improvement, it can be somewhat discouraging from the player's perspective.
In light of this, I can see why there is such an interest in going the "Hybrid Way" (for lack of a better term) of the augmented Adept. Whipstitch made a good point for this:
"...as a pure adept you're for all intents and purposes giving up the option of really progressing through nuyen..."
Agreed. Even in the previous editions it was slower going for an awakened character as she needed to initiate to improve in her core abilities at an increasing Karma rate each time. However it has gone to the extreme in 4th with the added cost of increasing one's Magic Attribute as well. Granted, since MA is now purchased at Chargen like the other attributes, it would be hard to find another mechanic to handle Adept character improvement. Our group had considered allowing Adepts to just initiate and choose between a Metamagic technique or an additional power point. As per the rules, the Adept could initiate up to her current MA after which she would need to increase the attribute to progress any further. Also any powers based on MA for duration or rating purposes would limited to the characters "real" MA. Yeah, an OK "fix", but yet another houserule nonetheless to muddy the waters further.
Ravor
Jan 25 2008, 02:41 AM
Of course there is room in the Sixth World for people who believe that by holding onto the "purity" of their magic they will someday reap rewards beyond measure, I just don't believe that their espoused belief is true from either a rules or fluff standpoint. Nor should it be given that Shadowrun is in the Cyberpunk genre.
Basically it's the same reason that I scoff at the various threads complaining that magic is more powerful then tech because by RAW it is uncapped, in a "normal" campaign I just don't see characters ever earning the Karma needed. (As a disclaimer, in my games I run a Hard Cap on Magic, but then again I also houserule Magic Loss rather heavily as well.)
Siege
Jan 25 2008, 05:15 AM
My character builds were either samurai or generalist adepts.
They weren't as task specific, but it usually meant a lot more play time because my character was the one plugging the gaps between the specialists.
And I liked the notion that the character didn't spring from a vat, mission-specific and perfectly synched to his assigned duties. "You have a PhD in physics...and you're driving a cab? What the frag?"
-Siege
Kyoto Kid
Jan 25 2008, 03:52 PM
...sometimes though that PhD isn't worth much more than the paper it's printed on. I know I have degrees in several fields that are pretty much "go nowhere" occupations and am currently schlepping data at a shipping firm. But I digress...
Siege, you hit the nail on the head as to why I prefer playing adepts over wireheads. Oh, I've had my share of sams, riggers & deckers, but there is something about adepts that I find more attractive. Part of it is the stealth factor, unless you are assensed nobody knows your abilities or potential. You don't set off scanners & you have no outward signs you are tougher than the average Joe on the street.
Siege
Jan 27 2008, 08:51 AM
Don't get me started on over-education and employment.
Adepts have a reasonable number of advantages, depending on the campaign.
The biggest advantage for me is the simplicity of construction -
Man and Machine was the beginning of the end in terms of Samurai for me. Primarily because building one was almost as much of a headache as a decker or a rigger.
-Siege
Kyoto Kid
Jan 27 2008, 09:25 PM
...OK last night for grins (and being bored), I took my favourite adept and worked up an alternate version of her sacrificing 1 PP and 22 BPs in resources just to see what would happen.
Using bioware only (so she still could slip past scanners) I dropped the Boosted Reflexes power, her Bike Skill, Increased Pain Tolerance I quality, and 1 pt of Strength and gave her the following:
Synaptic Booster 1 .5ess
Muscle Augmentation .2 ess
Synthcardium 2 .2 ess
Moderate Biosculpting .1 ess
The last augmentation fits with her backstory and in a way would validate her going the bio route anyway as it would have reduced her MA by 1. In her background I mentioned that she received a fair amount of cosmetic modification, effectively changing her ethnic appearance from Anglo to Japanese. This was before the release of Augmented and is now covered by Moderate Biosculpting.
OK so what this does is:
Free up an additional 1.25 power points (as I also had to drop one level of Improved Physical Ability in Gymnastics) which went to the following powers:
Improved Sense: Low Light Vision
Combat Sense 1 (improves her odds from one avg hit to two on a simple dodge test)
Enhanced Perception 2 (she now has a DP of 10 for sight and 12 for hearing perception tests).
This also gave her back the Athletics Skill Group I originally wanted her to have albeit at 3 instead of 4 (though effectively she is at a rating 5 with the Synthcardium.). She now has ten dice in Running (very useful for her rollerblades), Climbing, Swimming, and 12 in Gymnastics. This is in keeping with the original concept in that she was supposed to be an all around accomplished athlete.
The one thing that does deviate a bit from her background is the loss of her Increased Pain Tolerance which came from the mistreatment she received.
Final observation
So OK, it I can see it does make for a better (in her case more rounded) adept. Of course to improve her powers or add any more implants (like additional Synaptic boosting), she would need to raise her MA again (6 - augmented back to 5). However when she goes to raise her MA after that (7 - augmented back to 6 or 5 if she continues in the "way of the burnout"), she will now need to initiate as well, adding an additional 13 Karma to the cost. In this way it is kind of like borrowing on your future, you got to pay the piper sometime.
Glyph
Jan 27 2008, 09:39 PM
I'll admit that, like Siege, I like adepts a lot because they are so much simpler to construct than a sammie is. And even if you go the bioware-enhanced route, one or two points of bioware doesn't complicate it that much.
As far as "pure" adepts go, I guess I don't worry so much about whether they are the equivalent of a sammie or not - I just get Magic 5 or 6, get improved reflexes: 2, then have 2 or 3 more power points to play with. And what I like best about Street Magic isn't the cool new combat powers, but all of the cool miscellaneous powers, like sustenance, or linguistics, or multi-tasking.
Whipstitch
Jan 27 2008, 10:56 PM
One of the nice things about improved reflexes is that as expensive as it is it doesn't do anything to lower your magic cap or dilute the maximum rating of your other adept powers. This is why I prefer Synaptics for adepts with powers like Improved Ability: Gymnastics (During chargen Improved ability is effectively capped at Rating 3 due to the 1.5 modified skill limitation) and Nimble Fingers if I'm going the combat monster route and light attribute boosting bioware and Improved Reaction if I'm taking a character who's more likely to rely on powers like Pain Relief, Iron Will, Power Throw and Spell Resistance, which are nice abilities that work best with either a high magic or when taken at a high rating.
Kyoto Kid
Jan 28 2008, 01:15 AM
...I thought I read (or heard) somewhere though that an adept can only take up to half her
current skill rating (rounded down) in Improved Ability. So for example, the Short One having Athletics Group at 3 only allows her to take Improved Gymnastics 1, or can she take the power at rating 3?
...now I am a bit confused.
Whipstitch
Jan 28 2008, 01:23 AM
It depends on your current rating. I just meant that the "Only one skill at 6" creation limitation means you can take at most Improved Ability: 3 in one skill at creation and are stuck with rating 2 or less for everything else.
Glyph
Jan 28 2008, 02:06 AM
The good news, though, is that you will still have 2 more points than a sammie ever can, since reflex recorders are the only skill-boosting 'ware they can get (although there is a lot of other 'ware that gives dice pool bonuses). And it's good to be able to save the points, since improved reflexes are so much more important in SR4 melee.
Kyoto Kid
Jan 28 2008, 02:17 AM
QUOTE (Whipstitch) |
It depends on your current rating. I just meant that the "Only one skill at 6" creation limitation means you can take at most Improved Ability: 3 in one skill at creation and are stuck with rating 2 or less for everything else. |
...OK, then I did it right. Thanks.
Still makes her pretty good in any athletic activity with the extra bonus dice from the Synthcardium. Y'know I'm beginning to like this version of her a bit more. She's not overly Über-tough in any one area but still very good at a lot of what she does and hard to get the drop on.
I'll post the revised character for review later. Gotta go since the cafe is shutting down.