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Cardul
Ok, in another Thread, they mentioned the possibility of Awakened Cyborgs, and at first, it went against everything that I would think is right..but..

Maximum Magic Attribute=Essence(round down)+Initiation Grade

Cyborg creation options do include taking someone who is already experienced, but there are some limits to what they can do(but things they can do that baby and cloned brains can't).

So, if you have a mage who has several grades of Initiatin and maxed magic(lets say, a magic of cool.gif, when his essence is reduced to 0.1, his maximum magic becomes 2.

Now, the question is, though, can such a Magician still cast spells, counter-spell, or, well, do anything magically related?(I assume he keeps all his skills and spells, but..can he use them?)
Crusher Bob
Note that mages in a jar are limited to sensory gear that they paid essence for. So, for example, for the mage in a jar to blast you in the normal way, the jar is going to need some cyber-eyes that the mage paid essence for attached (or just a little view-port that your original meaty eyes can look out from). Also note that a jar driving something around is probably not going to be exposed (inside an armored box instead) so astral perception out of your jar is not going to get very far. Note, as you paid essence for your jar, I'd assume you don't have any trouble seeing through/out of it with astral perception is no problem.

So the mage/jar/tank setup has a jar in an armored box, in a tank. The jar has some cyber eyes. The armored box has some fiber optic cables (i.e. mage sight goggles), and these go out to the surface of the tank, where it can cast spells on you.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cardul)
So, if you have a mage who has several grades of Initiatin and maxed magic(lets say, a magic of cool.gif, when his essence is reduced to 0.1, his maximum magic becomes 2.

As far as I know, in every edition of Shadowrun, when a character's Essence is dropped below 1 full point, (ie. 0.99 and below) they lose all Magical ability (unless somehow sustained by utilizing Cybemancy). It is immaterial how many Grades of Initiation the mage has, or how high his Magic rating is at the time. It is only the Essence that is important, and since Essence is rounded down when dealing with the awakened, the character would need one full point of Essence in order to retain his Magical abilities.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Augmentation p.163)
Any character who undergoes this procedure automatically has his Resonance or Magic attribute reduced to zero.


It's pretty cut and dried. Per the rules, a Jarhead cannot be a Magician or a Technomancer. The attribute drop doesn't just happen from essence loss to 0.1 The attribute is actually reduced to zero.
toturi
Actually that quote just means that a jarhead cannot continue being a Magician or Technomancer.
the_dunner
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 31 2008, 07:34 AM)
Actually that quote just means that a jarhead cannot continue being a Magician or Technomancer.

Huh? That's the same thing.
QUOTE (SR4 p.164)
If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer
perform any kind of magic. The magician has “burned out,? losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills.


The CCU procedure reduces the attribute to zero. Per the core rules if it's reduced to zero, the character cannot do magic.

For a technomancer, the text on p.232 for Resonance reduction describes it "as with Magic." This is admittedly less explicit than the above quote, but the intent is to be the same.
toturi
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jan 31 2008, 08:59 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 31 2008, 07:34 AM)
Actually that quote just means that a jarhead cannot continue being a Magician or Technomancer.

Huh? That's the same thing.
QUOTE (SR4 p.164)
If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer
perform any kind of magic. The magician has “burned out,? losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills.


The CCU procedure reduces the attribute to zero. Per the core rules if it's reduced to zero, the character cannot do magic.

For a technomancer, the text on p.232 for Resonance reduction describes it "as with Magic." This is admittedly less explicit than the above quote, but the intent is to be the same.

No. There's still Latent Awakening and perhaps Latent Resonance.
Starmage21
If the jarheads were to actually become cyberzombies wouldnt they be able to do the things that the OP was attempting to do with a positive essence? They'd have a Magic of 1 + Initiation of 1, and be able to cast up to force 4 spells?
the_dunner
QUOTE (toturi)
No. There's still Latent Awakening and perhaps Latent Resonance.

No, actually there isn't.

QUOTE (Street Magic p.25)
If the character’s Essence is less than 1, he has lost any chance to be Awakened.

darthmord
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 31 2008, 09:07 PM)
So, if you have a mage who has several grades of Initiatin and maxed magic(lets say, a magic of cool.gif, when his essence is reduced to 0.1, his maximum magic becomes 2.

As far as I know, in every edition of Shadowrun, when a character's Essence is dropped below 1 full point, (ie. 0.99 and below) they lose all Magical ability (unless somehow sustained by utilizing Cybemancy). It is immaterial how many Grades of Initiation the mage has, or how high his Magic rating is at the time. It is only the Essence that is important, and since Essence is rounded down when dealing with the awakened, the character would need one full point of Essence in order to retain his Magical abilities.

Actually in one of the rules examples from SR3 (MitS I believe), it was talking about Astral Projection being done by a Cybermage who only had 0.17 Essence. It talked to the fact that his time in Astral Space was limited by his essence. In his case, he had 1 hour x 0.17 (since it used to be 1 hour per full point of Essence).

The example specifically said that he had mere minutes of Projection time.

All the rules have ever explicitly said was that a -1 Essence = a -1 Magic.

So if you Initiated twice and got your Magic +2, then at 1 Essence you'd have 3 Magic.

Now there is a practical lower limit due to Initiation Grade cannot exceed Magic Attribute.
toturi
QUOTE (the_dunner)
QUOTE (toturi @ Jan 31 2008, 08:00 AM)
No. There's still Latent Awakening and perhaps Latent Resonance.

No, actually there isn't.

QUOTE (Street Magic p.25)
If the character’s Essence is less than 1, he has lost any chance to be Awakened.

True. I forgot cyborgs were 0.1 Essense.
Elve
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 31 2008, 09:07 PM)
So, if you have a mage who has several grades of Initiatin and maxed magic(lets say, a magic of cool.gif, when his essence is reduced to 0.1, his maximum magic becomes 2.

As far as I know, in every edition of Shadowrun, when a character's Essence is dropped below 1 full point, (ie. 0.99 and below) they lose all Magical ability (unless somehow sustained by utilizing Cybemancy). It is immaterial how many Grades of Initiation the mage has, or how high his Magic rating is at the time. It is only the Essence that is important, and since Essence is rounded down when dealing with the awakened, the character would need one full point of Essence in order to retain his Magical abilities.

I always mastered using that rule, but the last time it was explicitly written was SR2 (if at all) I think...
Fortune
QUOTE (darthmord @ Feb 1 2008, 12:35 AM)
All the rules have ever explicitly said was that a -1 Essence = a -1 Magic.

Yeah, that's right, but as the_dunner noted, Street Magic explicitly states that a character who's Essence drops below 1 (which is specifically what we are talking about here) loses all Magical abilities.
darthmord
Fortune, doesn't that quoted section by dunner also refer specifically to Latent Awakening rather than Awakening in general?
Fortune
Shrug. Possibly, but as far as I am concerned, it refers to Awakening in general. Anyone who has less than 0.99999999 or less in Essence cannot be Awakened.

As further evidence, I put to you that a character can only ever Initiate to a maximum of 2x his Magic rating. If a character has less than 1 Essence (and hence a natural Magic of 0), he cannot Initiate, as 2 x 0 is still 0.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 31 2008, 09:27 AM)
Shrug. Possibly, but as far as I am concerned, it refers to Awakening in general. Anyone who has less than 0.99999999 or less in Essence cannot be Awakened.

darthmord is correct, that refers specifically to Latent Awakening.

QUOTE (Fortune)
As further evidence, I put to you that a character can only ever Initiate to a maximum of 2x his Magic rating. If a character has less than 1 Essence (and hence a natural Magic of 0), he cannot Initiate, as 2 x 0 is still 0.

I think you're kind of missing the point at how this works. It's the character's *current* magic rating, not his/her magic cap or their "natural rating" (whatever that means) when considering the number of times a character can initiate.

So, say your character has a 6 magic and decides to initiate 5 times. The PC then raises his magic each time and has a new magic rating of 11.

At that time, his initiation limit would become 22.

Our Magic 11 character gets kidnapped by Aztech, who forcibly install 5.5 points of Essence worth of Cyber and bio into his body.

His new Essence is 0.5. His new Magic rating is 5. His Initiation grade remains 5. His Initiation maximum is now reduced to 10.

EDIT to add/stay on thread:
The CCU procedure that creates a jarhead is a special edge case that *explicitly* reduces Magic/Resonance to zero.
Fortune
I get how it works, but thanks.

In cases like you describe (which I knew someone would post about as soon as I hit enter), I admit that's probably canon in SR4, but it doesn't work that way in my game (and it never has been).

As an aside, I was incorrect about the interaction of Magic and Initiate Grades ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 189)
A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.


QUOTE (SR4 pg. 189)
An initiate’s natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation


That means your character with 11 (5) Magic and Grade 5 Initiation cannot increase his Magic at all (natural maximum of 6 + Initiate grade), and cannot Initiate (maximum initation = Magic). The same would be true for a Grade 2 Initiate with Magic 8 (2). There would be no way to progress.
the_dunner
QUOTE (Fortune)
A question, as it's very late here and I'm quite tired. Would the above two rules mean that there is an actual hard cap of Grade 6 / Magic 12 built into the game?

Clearly not, because if the character were at Grade 6, with a Magic of 12, then their Initiation cap would be 12.
Fortune
Yeah I know. As I said, I am very tired. I tried to edit before anyone answered, but my damn connection sucks shit tonight.
Kalvan
And what keeps Marines from becoming magically active anyway? biggrin.gif
darthmord
Kalvan, that is because it would be haxxoring the rules. nyahnyah.gif

But yeah, I can see how a jarhead would have issues being magically active as many characters that have less than 1 Essence tend to be so from creation and it's hard to initiate PRIOR to character creation.

Makes sense that they can't be magically active.

This is one of those things I like about supplements... additional dimensions to express power but not necessarily to increase power.
Cardul
QUOTE (the_dunner)

The CCU procedure that creates a jarhead is a special edge case that *explicitly* reduces Magic/Resonance to zero.

Ah, OK...I see it now, page 163, last sentence of the third Paragraph..OK..so they did think of things like that.
Crusher Bob
That's why smart mages just get thier limbs lopped off, and stick themselves into an armored suitcase with a life support system.
Grinder
Well, smart isn't exactly the first word I would use to describe that. biggrin.gif
Siege
QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 1 2008, 11:36 AM) *
Well, smart isn't exactly the first word I would use to describe that. biggrin.gif


Marines are not known for being smart. cyber.gif

-Siege

Edit: Sorry, my first thought was "have you ever tried to wake a Marine up?" grinbig.gif
Kingmaker
Saw this thread and thought it was another character building thread wherein one designed awakened Marines.
Grinder
You can let it derail into becoming one biggrin.gif
Cardul
QUOTE (Kingmaker @ Feb 2 2008, 08:39 PM) *
Saw this thread and thought it was another character building thread wherein one designed awakened Marines.



QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 3 2008, 05:21 AM) *
You can let it derail into becoming one biggrin.gif



Yeah..my original thought got proven wrong wink.gif (and I and my fellow players with my Evil GM breath a collective sigh of relief)

Personally, I would love to see what people would think a 400 BP Marine Mage would be like(just remember, every Marine, regardless of specialty, is first, and foremost, a Rifleman)
Grinder
I'm afraid that sticking to 400 BPs won't make for a good Marine Mage. Other "build me a xyz"-threads have shown that 400 BPs are not enough for building specialized characters who're good in what they're supposed to be.
Ravor
They are as long as you remember that 6-8 is is the average professional dicepool in the Sixth World so marines, spies, special forces, and the like don't need hugh dicepools to get the job done in Fourth Edition.
Kingmaker
Doesn't one of the earlier edition sourcebooks (I'm going to guess Fields of Fire) mention that magic is primarily used in supporting roles in conventional engagements? Because that could affect the build of the magical marine. It would seem that a medic that could return a injured rifleman to fighting fit in moments would be considered more useful that someone who replicates a mortar, but costs more and needs to get closer.
Snow_Fox
This goes back to first Ed. The "burnt out mage' archetype with limited magic ability and cyberware
mfb
every time i read this topic title, my first thought is "Muscles Are Required, INT/LOG/CHA Not Expected".
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