i don't believe that's necessarily true in SR. every government in SR that i'm aware of (including megacorporations) recognize SINs. if you're a citizen, you have a SIN. certainly there are different laws in different countries and extraterritorial areas, but the setting material seems to apply that a certain level of 'rights' are extended by all authorities to all SINners.

I think mfb's right. SIN's are basically passports and while it's possible that they can be ignored that'd generally be considered bad form as it undermines both the issuing organizations power and the delicate balance of power between to orgs. If word gets out that UCAS isn't honoring Tir SINs that might have disastrous effects on Tir/UCAS relations. Tir may not be a great example since the trade, up until recently, might not have been all that substantial. But imagine if the UCAS stopped honoring Aztlan SINs, that'd be viewed as a direct attack on Megacorp extraterritoriality and a form of economic warfare.

The key phrase here is, if word gets out. In the example provided there's a pretty good chance that no one is going to know that you even disappeared. After all, what is a Tir citizen doing in the UCAS without a visa or similar paperwork? And if you got caught during the execution of a crime, well that's another bag of fish entirely.
The example that springs to mind is something that happened to my dad back in the 70's when he was touring through Russia. Basically he and his buddy got horrifically lost and ended up at a military checkpoint. Angry people in dark clothing confiscated all their film and began a long process of asking pointed questions. My dad and his buddy kept insisting that they were US citizens and entitled to speak to their embassy etc etc etc. After the tier one agent got fed up he summoned his superior who laid it out like this:
"You claim you are lost. You are here, embassy is in Moscow. Moscow is very far away. Now you answer questions." He didn't see the need to add the obvious "Or else no one will ever know you were even here."

We still wonder if there's a drawer in Moscow with some really nice black and white photos of some Russian architecture.

Well I thought that some shifters were animals that turned into people, and some were people that turned into animals. In anycase most sinless are rather out of luck in any case, since you do not technically exist in SR. Now personally I would think that torturing regenerators would end very, very badly one way or another. If only since I'm thinking the regenerator would most like start going toxic, or worse. However the ones you really would have to look out for are the rengenerators that are being used as a Guro love toy, and *like* it. Don't Wendigo regenerate and simply love 'tainted' meat?

Wendigo Internationals Theme Song:

Tainted Love

The only thing creepier than a creature eating your corrupted flesh is a creature that plays that song while eating your corrupted flesh.

For some reason now I'm imagining the SR version of a group for the Guro fans that torture shapeshifters/regenerators.

You know, that sounds like a really fun campaign to be a part of.

Question for everyone here: Has anyone run a campaign where the characters were a part of Lone Star and they were hunting Shadowrunners, Mob Bosses, and the like? I mean, yeah not normal Shadowrun, but can be fun experiment to try



A Level 18 Ally Spirit? You know that if anyone who has a frakking clue saw that Spirit Formula, then your character is dead? Right? I mean, no nation is going to allow ANYONE to that kind of power. That's like a terrorist with a Nuclear weapon. We know IRL that the Muslim Extremists are looking for one, but if they were found out to have one... well there would be Hell to pay and it would be a "Kill them all and let God sort 'em out!" level of response.

Only people can get visas and paperwork. Shapeshifters are animals, and wild animals at that. Getting a Visa would indicate that they have rights and are actually people--and their not, according to the UCAS.



Just being around people is probably enough to get you in trouble, considering that to the UCAS shapeshifters are dangerous, wild animals.



Yes, that is how one government that is hostile to another government would treat human beings from that other government. If, on the other, the first government didn't consider them humans, sentient creatures, or possessing any rights at all, it's another story.

Well if you are an animal you can be owned, and can hence be set up as belonging to a corperation. Then in the country where you are a citizen you can own the shell corperation. Hence you would most likely end up with better rights than some of the sprawl scum.

The problem is that people are forgetting that even with a SIN in the Sixth World you only have as many "rights" as you can afford to buy no matter what laws may or may not be on the books.

Oh, I'm well aware of that. ^.^ It's a good thing that the runners are inept and have no concept of anyone's well being but their own. And I have them under the thumb of a dragon. ^.^ That always helps. Plus, the formula was kinda broken up into a bunch of pieces and corps are currently trying to research it, seeing if they can gleen some useful info from it. Maybe make thier own Astral WMD. And, my shaman has assured the runners and the dragon that he will not be killing them or anyone they know/love. He just plans on showing the reminants of the old US of fraggen A that they can't lock up a shapeshifter for years of torture without somekind of backlash. These governments need to fall, to make way for a brighter future.

I mean...come on! I'm a cuddly fox! That should be enough for everyone to love me, right? RIGHT?! XD

*Reaches for his tools*

Remember to spay and neuter your cuddly fox... wouldn't want them to breed out of control.

Others with that power live happily ever after, and no one cares. Just need pointy ears, or scaly skin and wings, and you're golden.

Seriously, it depends on the campaign you are playing. If the government and coprs are helpless against such a spirit, then yes, there might be a heavy response. If that's nothing they can't handle because they have similar stuff, then why bother?

On the Tir citizenship:
Not recognizing a foreign citizen strikes at the bones of international relations and will not be done by a Seattle that's been presented as precariously balanced among hostile states a thousand miles from the nearest UCAS border.
The government/citizen relationship is simple. I, citizen, will pay you, government, taxes. In return you will provide me with basic services and protection. Allowing the rednecks down in Seattle to rape, mutilate and kill my cousin with impunity is not some minor little accident. It is recognized under customary international law as grounds for war.
Further, it's not like she doesn't have her passport on her because, hey, no pockets. She's probably got a commlink clipped to her ear that's broadcasting her SIN.

At hyzmarca: you've so seriously fucked up my penis's mood swings with your helpful hint on online searching that half the women in town are going to sue you for loss of meretricious conduct.
Shudder.

Well, if you're going for Genocide, then you might have a little bit of a problem. Being cuddy does nothing you're going for a body count in the millions.




Because even if the corps and the goverments have that level of fire power, they wouldn't want some slot unleashing that level of force... it's bad for poll ratings.

As I said, as long as the slot has pointy ears or scaly skin, they already do nothing according to canon, so why should they do anything if said slot has fur?

dude, contain yourself. stop turning every thread into a discussion about dragons.

Sorry, just felt it was strange that people think a force 18 spirit will get all hell unleashed upon the mage when such power does not result in a similar response in other cases.

The corps unleashed a pretty impressive weapon against the spirits of Mount Kilimanjaro, though it took them some time to prepare. One of the troubles with spirits is that they come back even after distrution and banishment, making direct assault against them only a temporary solution.

The spirit is more for the flavor of the character, the campaign, and a little person vengance on my part. There are things out there strong and better, and a dragon could more easily conjur up something of that magnitude then I could. But the fact that I have the chance and my actually pull it off should show The Powers That Be (ie governments and corps) that they will not mess around with the magically awakened anymore like they're some personal lab rats.

But...if that fails, I'm still cute.

Well, then, try Death Panda; I found it to be emotionally uplifting. It's a beautiful heartwarming romantic comedy about a giant demon-panda that brutally murders and rapes countless scores of people. In the end, this turns out to be a good thing and everyone is happy.




Direct assaults work, you just have to do them on the spirit's home metaplane. By the same token, spirits have to come to your home metaplane to kill you.

Details mentioned where?

SOTA64 page 156.

No goddamnit! I refuse to be drawn into a discussion on dragons again! We have a whole goddamn thread devoted to that!

Unless of course you're talking about eating regenerating dragon. That's still fair game. Mmm... Dragon, the other screaming meat.

Firstly, recognizing citizenship does not strike to the bones of international relations when some countries begin recognizing ANIMALS as citizens. Imagine if Holland began saying some cows are people. The US government would say 'you're nuts, your cow must still follow all applicable laws and codes.' If you brought your cow wife into a city where cows illegal, it would be picked up by animal control and you would be fined. If you refused to pay the fine to claim it, it would be sold or slaughtered. The US simply does not recognize cows as anything but property. Same with shifters, at best, they are property. They may belong to someone else, but in that case that other person is responsible for caring and keeping track of it.

Secondly, yes, the government is not interested in any sort of diplomatic snafus while enforcing its laws. So it will not officially recognize the shifter was picked up in the first place. IF someone back in the Tir found out and started making a stink, I'm sure the UCAS would assign ownership, mail the shifter out and be done with it. Until someone important knows though, the shifter is now the property of whoever found it, and the UCAS would not be in its rights to challenge that.

Thirdly, a shifter's cousin is a shifter. The UCAS does not recognize shifters as sentient creatures. While the gov't may be smart enough to say 'hey, this could be a sign of problems yet to come', the shifter has no legal recourse at that point. the UCAS doesn't recognize either of them.

So unless the shifter manages to catch the attention of someone important, he belongs to whoever finds him and that's that.

I'll also say, I find the idea of a fox clipping a commlink to its ear a little silly. Have you ever felt a fox's ear? That's not going to be comfortable. It MIGHT get a collar (although a transmitting commlink only makes the catcher's job easier). It does bring a new meaning to the term 'dog tags', but no shifter I ever played was silly enough to do such a thing (especially considering shifters are ANIMALS, and animals really don't generally carry ID, even smart animals).

Cows however can not pass for humans, work a regular job, read, or write. Shifters have lots of non-animal features. Classifying them as regular animals would be willful prejudice. Not saying it would not happen, I'm just saying that the cow analogy is less than perfect.

Mannequins and orangutans also don't qualify. Both look similar to humans (although they are identifiably not), both would be capable of working some jobs, and the latter has a genuine claim to sentience, if they'd stop getting killed by poachers long enough to pursue it.

Of course, there really isn't an example of creatures which can mimic humans as closely as shifters can without actually being one, so to a degree we have to stretch our imaginations here. But shifters are provably not human, and by and large seem to resist civilizing influences. A surprising majority of them are predators, and in a place where the vast majority of real meat is human meat, that is not a recipe for happiness. Better to leave them out in the wild where they belong. If they do enter the city, there's no way for humans to know whether they're here to hunt or sightsee, and we need to deal with them like we do any other large predator.

The Holland analogy is probably apt for the plight of shifters. TT isn't exactly a warm fuzzy bear on the world stage that everyone really cares about. We'd have to get into a lengthy and dodgy conversation about just how much power TT weilds and whether it could do anything besides write strongly worded letters.

Now if TT is a major player and has numerous trade connections and so forth, they certainly could dictate terms. If Switzerland decided that cows were people and granted them full rights and passports, America might be convinced that they should at least honor the passports, even if they don't grant cow citizenship in their own country.

Are shifters citizens in NAN nations? I'm pretty sure that if the Pueblo Council, with the backing of Horizon were to grant citizenship that the UCAS might have to reconsider their official stance.

But yeah, this is all reliant on somebody knowing you even exist in the first place.

Look at the international reaction when Spain introduced a bill to give Great Apes human rights. They were laughed at internationally and it didn't so much as slow down the buying and selling of them for zoo's or the poaching of them for food and meat.