Well, the title pretty much says it. What counts towards that max 1.5 limit? Does anything let you go over it?

Specialization especially has me confused in this regard. If my natural skill max is 6 and I already have 9, will specialization mean nothing? Or does it add 2 more to my already maxed skill?

An increase to the skill counts against the limit, an increase to the dice pool does not. Most importantly Specializations are a dice pool modification, as are Smart Links, Med Kits, and Synthacardiums.

-Frank

Is there anything in the BBB that adds to the skill itself, not just the dice pool?

Reflex recorders and the adept power

Reflex Recorders (p. 339) and Improved Ability (p. 187).

-Frank

RefelexRecorders and Adept Powers I think

Well. That answers my questions quite thoroughly.

Thank you very much!

Are you certain on Reflex Recorders and the Improved Ability power?

Reflex Recorder refers to the bonus as a 'dice pool bonus' which is the same wording used in the Mnemonic Enhancer on the same page - so surely either both are skill modifiers, or both are dice pool modifiers.

Similarly, Improved Ability is limited to a number of additional dice equal to the base skill rating - unless that is errata, surely that sentence is redundant if the extra dice are already limited to the skill cap?

For example, if your base skill is 4, the skill cap is 6, but I can have 4 extra dice from Improved Ability which makes no sense.

Again I haven't seen the errata recently, so if this was addressed already then feel free to let me know.

The key distinction is "rating" vs. "dice pool."

-Frank

The 1.5 cap is errata. The reflex recorder gives (by errata) a bonus to skill.

OK, understand that, but why would anyone buy more than 3 levels of Improved Ability, given the most the difference between base rating and modified rating can be is 3 points?

Also, why have the restriction preventing you from taking more levels in Improved Ability than your base skill rating when that is totally redundant? At any given skill rating, you will hit the cap before you hit that restriction.

<<OK - having finally looked at the errata I can see that they pointed it to rating for Improved Ability so my question is moot, and there is no point in buying more than 3 levels>>

So, to follow on from the OP's point - presuming I'm not an adept, what else can I add to reach the modified rating cap?

Presuming I already have Aptitude and have maxed my skill to 7, my cap is 10. Reflex recorder will get me to 8, but aside from Improved Ability how can I get points 9 and 10?

Isn't the augmented maximum your highest naturally possible skill rank x1.5, as with attributes, instead of your current rank x1.5?
In the former case, the additional cap for improved ability would prevent adepts from boosting a rank 1 skill to (3) or (4) or a rank 2 skill to (5).

I think a strict interpretation of the RAW is that the modified limit is governed by your current rank.



And the errata appears to have removed the original restriction from Improved Ability anyway.

What I am more interested in is how anyone other than physads can max a skill out, given that Reflex Recorders are the only non-magical way of increasing your modified skill rating - does anyone know if Aug or Arse contain anything else that could get the 9th and 10th point?

As far as I know, only adepts can max. a skill out. Samurai can get beyond that in DP size, but almost everything provides only bonus dice, so the restriction only applies for Reflex Recorders taken at actual Skill Rating 1, and in combination with the adept power. I would have prefered an errata limiting the adept power only, much, as that is what the rule does.

Adepts can get hands down the highest skill pools, both because of improved ability and the Attunement metamagic.

The only thing that brings sammies a little closer is cyberlimbs. There are various 'optimized' limbs that provide dice pool bonuses. Like there are the arms that provive +1 to unarmed combat per arm. But there aren't many varieties of optimized ware, it's not exactly expansive. And there's nothing stopping an adept from using the optimized limbs, since I'm fairly sure that optimized limbs are bonus dice, not augmented ratings which count towards the limit.

nitro (SR4) gives +2 to perception.
novacoke (SR4) gives +1 to perception.

move-by-wire (augmentation) boosts your dodge skill.

and control rig boosters (augmentation) can boost any vehicle skill. naturally, they only apply to rigging, but iirc at least first aid can be done via rigging and gain the bonus.

betel (arsenal) gives +1 to perception.
eX (arsenal) gives +1 to perception.
red mescaline (arsenal) gives +2 to perception.
pixie dust (arsenal) gives +1 to perception.

sage (street magic) gives +1 perception.

the drugs are a bit iffy, as they don't specify it's a dice pool modifier i assume it's a skill modifier (basically all of those things that boost perception are drugs)

there are also a number of other effects that grant "+2 to all logic-related skills" for example. it is quite unclear whether they are a dice pool bonus or a skill bonus, but i would treat it as being a dice pool bonus because imo if it applies to all logic-linked skills then we're basically talking about improved logic as opposed to improved skills. (not that this would apply to the logic augmented maximum, since it doesn't actually boost logic mind you)

Let´s start with anyone-must-have synthacardium 3. Extended volume 3 could also help. And yeah, Reflex Recorder (Athletics). Assume a base skill group of 4 and the effective skill rating is generally 8, 11 in the case of fatigue tests. Athletics dodge is a given at that point.

Knowledge skills AND languages +3 from mnemoic enhancers. Distribute broadly at chargen, any skill of 2 is actually a skill of 5.

Add that to the higher attributes of a samurai. I don´t think adepts are the ability kings... if they want those extra 2 dice (skill+3 instead of Reflex Recorder), the price for having magic left after implants is a high enough price to pay.

Looking at the SR4 BBB, it appears that there was a great deal of copy-pasting from SR3, which introduced errors. Many of these errors remained and had to be errated, though they still haven't made a clear distinction between skill (capped) augmentations and (uncapped) bonuses in many cases. There seems to be no rule for determining the difference.

IME, and this is purely anecdotal, not an "official" opinion, SR4 works best if you apply the 1.5 limit to everything save for situational modifiers.

Don't forget the MbW - it has '+1 to the character’s Dodge skill rating' too.

They didn't.

Looks like I need more coffee.

i'd say they're skill modifiers.

i too have been operating under the x1.5 cap for all modfiers, havn't run into too many problems.

So the consensus seems to be that the only way to hit skill limit cap is by being an adept.

For those peeps who are applying the x1.5 cap to all modifiers, are you referring to just dice pool modifiers from qualities/magic/'ware or situational dice pool modifiers too? Is it not too limiting to the characters? Does it render actions like Take Aim redundant because of the likelihood of a character hitting the x1.5 cap with simple 'ware?

should have clarified, the control rig boosters can boost you to your augmented max also, but (as i mentioned earlier) only in things that are considered vehicle skills.

as far as what i would count towards the augmented cap, don't include circumstantial modifiers but do include stuff that always modifies the skill. for example, the vision enhancement sensor thingy only boosts perception(visual) so it would not be affected by the cap, whereas the drug bonuses to perception would be limited to your augmented max.

I havn't run into it too often, but then again, i usualy don't make "one hit wonders" when making characters. the way i understand it is: if your base skill is a 4, then the largest dice pool modifier you can have is a +6 (4x1.5). +6 isn't really a small modifier, but still puts a cap on how good someone can be right out of the gate, without investing time and karma in improving thier skill.

I think it also puts a greater emphasis on negative dice pool modifiers, since you can't do any better at one action, your next step is to make sure the guy you're shooting at has a harder time dodging.

now, its possible that i read the rules wrong, and thats not how its supposed to be done.

The rule is simple. Any reference to a modifier to a particular skill or group of skills (such as "grants +2 to Dodge Skill Tests", or "+1 to all Logic-related Skills") are subject to the augmented cap. Any reference to a "dice pool modifier" means that such a modifier does not count towards the skill-specific cap.

Granted the wording in some sections is unclear, but that will be addressed in the next batch of errata and some instances have already been addressed in the FAQ.

Of course it's not how it's "supposed to be done", it's a house rule. Nothing wrong with house rules, by the way, but applying the 1.5 cap to dice pool modifiers is absolutely not canon in any way.


As far as sammies vs. adepts - adepts have the advantage of improved ability, which lets them start out with one skill at an effective level of 9 or 10. Sammies have some advantages too, though. They have access to 'ware that improves their Attributes (muscle toner: 2 is essentially +2 to all Agility-based skills), and lots of 'ware that gives dice pool bonuses (enhanced articulation, tailored pheromes, synthcardium, mnemonic enhancers, etc.). Of course, combat adepts who take one or two Essense points of bioware have the best of both worlds.