My reading of the SR4 main book under "weapon focus" was that a “weapon focus� in this game could be a charm(maybe a small amulet?) that affects ALL melee attacks. [SR4 p.190-191].

It varies with magical tradition, but I see this as possible with certain traditions.
I realize this breaks shadowrun "previous edition tradition" but so does a lot in this edition...

Do people agree, or MUST the weapon focus be an actual weapon?

Er...if it doesn't I'm going to feel real dumb.
Okay, just reread it and I can't find anything suggesting that it has to be a weapon.
Shit, from the rules it seems a weapon focus adds to all melee attacks the bonded character makes...

Would certainly be more pratical make it a weapon but not seeing anything either to make it otherwise.

From my reading of it there's an encouragement to, in that if it is you can use its damage on the astral instead of your normal damage, but no requirement.

~J

Well there is the line on page 192 that says, "Making an attack with a weapon focus in astral space relies on the character's Willpower + Astral Combat dice pool..." So it could read as you have to attack with the focus itself.

I think the failure to specify is just a booboo. You could go ahead and play it otherwise, but I don't think they meant to change how weapon foci work.

Well they did change the way power foci worked, and in SR3 the weapon focus entry does specify melee weapons. So I dunno, while you would think it would have to be a weapon it does not say that.

I didn't require that it be a weapon - two of the characters that have showed up in games I'm involved have been unarmed adepts, so that would have been hard.
I did require it to be at least something they were hitting the target with.
(In the most recent case, an unarmed fighter wears it as a tight bracelet around her wrist)

This is one of those times that you have to take the name of the foci and use that as to what it is. A weapon is something to do harm to another being. Sure I could bash you with my amulet, but I would much rather brain you with my club or stab you with my sword.

Following that logic, a spell focus should be a spell (somehow), a spirit focus should be a spirit, and a power focus should somehow be work divided by time.

I don't think that's a very useful approach.

~J

...however, if it applies to all attacks, than Killing Hands is pretty useless. Now if you use the chain from your magic amulet as a garrote, then yes I could see it, but no Power Pasties please.

wouldn't the weapon focus also add to killing hands? O.o
and by this description one can actually make a green lantern in SR . . how is that EVER wrong for nerds/geeks? *g*

Killing hands by itself doesnt have any added damage. Killing hands just changes the standard unarmed attack from stun to physical damage.
On that note, KK is right for the fact that an Adept could save .5 PP by just buying a R1 weapon focus, say as a set of gloves, at chargen. Right off the bat, you get physical damage since you are attacking with the focus and not your own unassisted fists.

Now, you have to take note that Killing Hands can not be taken from you, barring essense loss or increased background count, while the focus can be stolen, lost, broken, etc. So it's a tossup of; do you save that .5 PP or use the .5 PP on something that can't be taken from you?

HAH! I found it! I'm a fantastic rules lawyer! And I should be, because I'm in law school



That clearly implies that the weapon focus is a melee weapon, since it says that they work like other melee weapons.

Still, one would have hoped for something more than an implication... That's all I need to see to convince me to stick with tradition though.

Well, in theory, improvised melee weapons also count as melee weapons.

A broken beer bottle weapon focus would work like a dagger, with all the penalty of using a broken beer bottle in melee combat, and all the advantages of it being a weapon focus. But really, who would be so silly to turn a broken beer bottle into a weapon focus anyway?

and there are also meele weapons wielded in unarmed combat, like golves and the such, where do they fit in?

Hardliner gloves are weapons that enhance unarmed combat. As such, there is no reason why they cannot be enchanted as Weapon Foci (as could brass knuckles and the like).

In addition to the quote ixombie provided, the cost of a weapon focus is based in part on weapon reach, talks about making attacks with a weapon focus, and states that the damage of the weapon is the same on the astral plane and the physical world. I think the rules make it abundantly clear that a weapon focus is, in fact, a weapon.

There is nothing stopping someone from enchanting a glove or gauntlet as a weapon focus, although it would be questionable which of the adept unarmed powers would stack with it - killing hands, doubtful; critical strike, maybe.

Actually, the cost thing is not true in SR4. Which is part of why the ambiguous writing is so confusing. Most SR4 players have played SR3 I think, so they didn't even notice that the rules could be read any other way. And that's probably how the devs were thinking when proofreading it... If they even did

Sorry, should have been more clear. I meant the bonding cost (table, pg. 191).

OMFG! Literally all of the rules that make it clear that weapon foci are actually supposed to be weapons are on the same page. And yet no single person noticed all of them on their own.

Critical glitch on a teamwork test?

No just a regular glitch. A critical glitch would have degenerated into a flame war, possibly culminating in a few RL suicides and a big media circus, and proposed federal legislation to shut down Dumpshock and ban Shadowrun, which could only be avoided by a collective burning of edge by all of us.

Couldn't that also be the result of one party's successful roll?

"as could brass knuckles and the like"

too bad no brass knuckles exist in the books currently out for SR4...or did I miss it somewhere?


It did come up in my group and our GM made the following stats. Hope it's useful to others...:
Aluminum Knuckles = STR/2 + 1 P, $600
Plastic Knuckles = STR/2 P, $400
Titanium Knuckles = STR/2 + 2 P, $800

I have started a good debate and it must continue!

So Say then, ok a weapon focus IS a weapon. By reading RAW, even if I attack unarmed, with the weapon focus in my possession, I get the bonuses to my unarmed (and indeed, to ANY melee attack I make!).

Nothing says it applies only to attacks made DIRECTLY HITTING WITH THE WEAPON FOCUS itself.
"Weapon foci add magical power to an Awakened character's melee attacks." p.191 SR4

What say u?

Taking a sentence out of context doesn't change the fact that we have quoted rules saying that people attack with a weapon focus, and that it does damage as a weapon. And why would anyone ever spend the extra Karma to bond a combat axe focus, if they could get the same effect from a pinky ring?

Why not just use the stats given for Hardliner Gloves?

'cause an axe is made a rokkin!
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/Cie...MADE4ROKKIN.jpg

That's what I do.

Cost should be way lower than that. Hint: Knifes are way more complicated to make. And titanium offers no benefit for this application, good old stainless steel is heavier and cheaper. Heavy is good for a punching weapon.



Not using the focus for what you do = not getting the benefit. Possession of a medkit 6 alone does not give +6 on First Aid tests, either.

I would think that the knuckles would be easier to make however.

Probably. Hardliners contain a strip of densiplast, which would have a higher OR than brass.

Also the rules were made before it was known that Hardliner gloves existed.

Hardliner gloves existed in previous editions, and it's pretty easy to assign stats to them (and brass knuckles). I did so when SR4 first came out, and I'm pleased to see that they match up exactly with those in Arsenal (but then really, how hard is it to add +1 DV and change it to P? ).

I will double check, but my impression is that although a weapon foci does not have to be the weapon, you need to carry it on your person as normal for a foci to work. But, each weapon foci is for a specific weapon; you can have a weapon foci for a Katana, but it does not work with all Katana's, only the one it was created for. Further, I am fairly certain it clearly states a weapon foci cannot be created for a ranged weapon.

So, say you have a weapon foci for your Katana. The foci can be a ring, but must be on your person & active to have an effect, and only applies it's bonus to your Katana attacks. If you are dual-wielding Katana's, you will need a seperate foci for each; one foci will only apply to one of them.

...time to Rock & Roll baby...!

Always wanted to do that for a Rocker character back in the "good old days".

Say I: nay.

no. the weapon focus *is* the katana. this has already been covered.

It really is sad that astral combat is so ambiguous that we dont even know whether or not a weapon foci must be a weapon. I personally go along with that line of thought. Also, whether BBB says it or not, the force of the focus only adds die to a melee attack using that weapon focus.


While most foci need only be symbolic of their function, weapon foci are different from other foci. Saying that just because a power focus can be anything a weapon focus can also be anything is stupid and narrow-minded. A power focus is a power focus, a sustaining focus is a sustaining focus. Each focus is different, and a weapon focus just happens to reside within the weapon that it modifies.

Forgive me for not sharing your opinion that not being willing to make shit up and assert it as authoritative qualifies as "stupid and narrow-minded".

~J

I think the thread contains page references to all the evidence in the book on whether a weapon focus is supposed to be an actual weapon. No flames necessary, kthx.