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Kastie
Hello all,

I guess you can say I am the financial backer for my group (meaning I buy all the books). We are still playing SR3, but some of the players, including myself and the GM, would like to make the jump to SR4. Unfortunately, in SR3 I play a shapeshifter character from the Shadowrun Companion book, and they currently do not have them in SR4 (when asked, they said it should be out in a book in late 07, or early 08...and it is already early 08 and no book has them yet). The GM said that if I could get a reasonable conversion for them he would allow it.

My question is, has anybody else converted them, and if so, how? Is it working out, or are they too over/under powered? I would like to see what someone else has done, and find out if it worked out before I try to convert it myself.

Thanks for the assistance,

Kastie
WearzManySkins
Dupe post
WearzManySkins
There used to be a Topic under the Old Forum format that included conversions of SURGE/Metavariants and Shapeshifters but it appears it did not make the transition to the forum format.

Follow this link to a web page with a version of Shapeshifters,,,it is incomplete but should give you a starting point.

http://shadowrunsurvivalguide.com/ShapeShifter.aspx

WMS
Fortune
There are a couple of recent threads discussing Shapeshifters, if you choose to Search for them. I'd link them, but I am short of time at the moment.

Oh, and welcome to Dumpshock.
Jaid
Knasser's website has updated shapechangers. they are (of course) unofficial, but you might be able to figure something out from that.
Kastie
I did a search, but mainly what I was able to find was questions if people used them in their campaign, and which ones...Dragons, Vampires, etc. I was also a little short of time, so I thought I'd post and then do more seaching when I had more time. Thanks for the links that were given. Just glancing at them briefly, I see they will be helpful.

Thanks again,

Kastie
swirler
I wish I had the info from my original SR1 gm
he had his own rules for both shapeshifters and vamps
I played a white tiger shifter in his game
WearzManySkins
OK lets begin discussing/talking about it.

Severe Allergy to Silver 15pt Negative Quality.

Dual Nature

Regeneration

No Cyberware/BioWare/Geneware/NanoWare

TechnoMage will be up to each GM.

It is much easier to pay the points to build the character as if he/she was normal, then modify the stats when in Animal Form.

From what has been written about the Shapeshifter Country Yatkut(sp), they can and are organized.

There could be a strong background for magics.

Cost for the Race Selection of Shapeshifter 40 build points sounds about right.

Basic rules for Positive and Negative qualities still apply, it starting out they already have a 15 negative quality ie Allergy to Silver, only 35pts of Negatives and 35 points of Positives.

WMS
swirler
how fast would the regen be?
WearzManySkins
As per the Creature ability of Regeneration it a Magic and Body test, each success removing one box of damage Physical or Stun per combat round. Page 290 in SR4 book.

FYI Silver Allergy damage is not regenerated, ie as long as the silver object/bullet is still "touching" the shapeshifter.

Does this mean if you hit a shapeshifter with the Panther Assault Cannon firing EX-EX can he/she regenerate the damage before the next round? Depends on the Regeneration Test, he will regenerate some, but more than likely not all of it.

Yes it is not as great as the SR3 regeneration ability, but it is still very good.

WMS
WearzManySkins
You could allow Shapeshifter Physical Adepts to have the Way of Regeneration

Rank 1, Regeneration Tests are 1 point easier ie instead of 4 for the target number it is a 3, Magic Rating has to be a 6, Cost 0.5 magic point
Rank 2, Regeneration Tests are 1 point easier ie instead of 3 for the target number it is a 2, Magic Rating has to be a 7, Cost 1 magic point
Rank 3, Regeneration Tests are 1 point easier ie instead of 2 for the target number it is a 1, Magic Rating has to be a 8, Cost 1.5 magic point
Rank 4, Regeneration Tests are 1 point easier ie instead of 1 for the target number it is a 1, Magic Rating has to be a 9, Cost 2 magic point can regenerate silver allergy damage with the silver with out being removed.

Initiate Grade Regeneration Cost 2 Magic Points
All Regeneration Tests successes are doubled.

WMS
Kastie
Thanks for the suggestions. My SR3 character was also a mage, so he would remain a mage (My GM would only allow me to convert...so no changing class, spells, etc.).

WearzManySkins - you mentioned the Shapeshifter Country Yatkut. What book is that from? I would like to read up on it to help my cause with my GM.

When reading the Shadow Run Companion description, and then looking at how to convert to SR4 (and not having read the Shapeshifter Country Yatkut), would the Negative Quality "Uncouth" fit...not that they are antisocial, or a sociopathic, but that they do not know how to relate to "humanoids". Things that would seem to be common sense might not be to a shapeshifter. For example, animals kind of just go to the bathroom wherever they feel the need...would a shapeshifter kind of have that...instinct? Or, would Uneducated be a more accurate Negative Quality?

Kastie
Jaid
iirc, shapeshifters traditionally have uneducated and don't get compensated for it i thought?

in any case, no one is deserving of uncouth. no matter how little you think your character may know of social graces, they still do not deserve uncouth.

for example, did you know that if you have the uncouth quality, you can't resist leadership tests? that's right, your uncouth character is a natural-born follower. not only that, but they are completely incapable of lying. i mean it. they are so bad at it, they can't even try it without special training. and not only that, but they always believe everything they are told. they never try to get a better deal from anyone (and in fact, are willing to take the worst deal you offer them) too... so tell me, who does that sound like to you? no one, that's fragging who. none of the people you might imagine as having the worst social skills imaginable have that. not even people who don't care who they offend have that. uncouth seriously needs to be rewritten, because in order to create a character who can do anything other than mindlessly do what anyone tells them to do you have to spend way more points on social skills than you gained from the negative quality in the first place.

seriously, uncouth is a punishment i wouldn't inflict on anyone. likewise with infirm (you'd be shocked what you can't even try to do with those two qualities if you seriously read them and apply what they say). even uneducated is a bit ridiculous (honestly, it only makes sense if play starts with that character still in whatever deep, dark hole they were apparently brought up in, because once you've been in the city and can understand language for more than a couple of days you're going to start getting a lot of those basic gaps in your knowledge filled in... but hey, at least the uneducated quality only requires houserules to make sense. it's still playable, if completely silly, without any houserules at all)

[edit] oh, and i don't think yakutsk is detailed anywhere. it is mentioned in a few places, but never really fleshed out iirc... it's pretty much one of those 'we know it exists, we just don't really know anything more about it' kinda places.

of course, there's also plenty of shapeshifters in amazonia iirc. so all you have to do is break into CGL's office, finish all the work on SoLA that needs to be done, then go and get holostreets running, and then you'll be able to read up on them. maybe. nyahnyah.gif [/edit]
Kastie
Thanks Jaid. Your rant on Uncouth gave me a good chuckle.

Ok. I think I have enough to start my conversion attempts. I'm sure I'll still have questions as I am doing it...so keep the suggestions coming.

Kastie
KCKitsune
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Feb 23 2008, 04:44 PM) *
Dual Nature

...

TechnoMage will be up to each GM.


If you can perceive the Astral, you can't be a Technomancer. It's either one or the other.
WearzManySkins
IIRC The Shapshifter Country is spoken about in Shadows of Asia. It also has a pretty powerful spirit pulling some of the strings.

As for uneducated? well to take over a large patch of territory((see above)) and control a population, to me does not qualify. But if a character wanted to let him/her take the lumps that go with it.

@KCKitsune, ok that settles that question then.

From Shadows of Asia page 5 and much more of it there also
"as well as the internal strife between metahumans and shapeshifters in Awakened Yakut"

WMS
Kastie
I'll have to check out Shadows of Asia then. See what I can use to add to my story.
hyzmarca
You can totally negate the harmful aspects of uncouth by taking an idioglossia as your native language, thus making it impossible for anyone to communicate with you well enough to use social skills on you.
Glyph
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 23 2008, 04:59 PM) *
You can totally negate the harmful aspects of uncouth by taking an Idioglossia as your native language, thus making it impossible for anyone to communicate with you well enough to use social skills on you.


Unfortunately, this also makes it hard for others to communicate with you meaningfully in any way at all. And beware of the social adept who spent 0.25 points in linguistics.

But the Uncouth flaw really doesn't make any sense for shapeshifters, which include things like werefoxes, who get a Charisma bonus comparable to that of elves. Even the Uneducated flaw is too limiting. I would probably do like the SR companion did, and give them less knowledge skill points, make them buy all language skills (since their "native" language will be whatever beast type they are), and charge them more, or limit them, in contacts and resources.
WearzManySkins
From the small amount written in SoA. Uncouth and uneducated negative qualities to me would not fit most shapeshifters from Awakened Yakut. Uncouth and uneducated secret police.....naaa,,,brutal yes.

Since they have Astral Sight, Technomancers are out.

Due to the lack of major amounts of infrastructure, and that the "ruling" Free Spirit wants a back to nature land, Cracking Group skills, Electronic Group skills, and Mechanical Group skills would be non existent or extremely limited lets say a skill of 2 max with no specializations for shapeshifters.

But since most if not all shapeshifters are awakened, I would give the extra build points in Conjuring Group Skills, Sorcery Group Skills, what does extra build points mean to me,,,,,maybe at most 5-10 extra build points total,,,not per group.

But due the lack of infrastructure give them 5 bonus build points in Outdoor Group skills.

Why would a shapeshifter wish the leave the promised land? smile.gif

Not all of them may care to "ruled" by a Free Spirit, or the more cunning or smart ones,,,may see the handwriting on the wall, so to speak about the Free Spirit keeping control.

WMS
knasser
QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 23 2008, 02:11 AM) *
Knasser's website has updated shapechangers. they are (of course) unofficial, but you might be able to figure something out from that.


Thanks for the namecheck. Unfortunately, the shapechangers on my site are specifically critters. I honestly can't see a good way of balancing the regeneration power with normal play so I can't really help, here.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Feb 24 2008, 07:13 AM) *
But since most if not all shapeshifters are awakened,


Sorry to nitpick, but that's just plain wrong.
SR2-3 listed wether being awakened was common among a certain type of shifters in the description and there's several species, like tigers, i think also bears, who where listed as being "rarely" magically active.

For PCs, this might be different, especially since regeneration is now linked to the magic attribute and therefore of double use for any shapeshifter, vampire and probably megalodon.



I'd add sensitive system to the list of automatic handicaps, but since shapeshifters are also unable to have bioware (and most likely also geneware, probably also symbionts) installed, one would have to raise the BP granted by that handicap.
WearzManySkins
Read up a bit higher that has already been covered.
QUOTE
No Cyberware/BioWare/Geneware/NanoWare


As for Awakened, yes that is what the previous rules said, but the numbers from that time were/are FUBAR. Since supposedly a small fraction of the population is awakened but then look out of 100 characters at least 10 are awakened in one form or another.

As for sensitive system*shrugs* that is up to each player and his or her GM.

My point is not to max out the negative qualities a character gets, the 35 point limit is still in effect.

The regeneration ability/power of shapeshifters is not as powerful as in the previous iterations of SR. Is it good yes, but to me not totally over the top.

WMS
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Kastie @ Feb 23 2008, 04:15 PM) *
When reading the Shadow Run Companion description, and then looking at how to convert to SR4 (and not having read the Shapeshifter Country Yatkut), would the Negative Quality "Uncouth" fit...not that they are antisocial, or a sociopathic, but that they do not know how to relate to "humanoids". Things that would seem to be common sense might not be to a shapeshifter. For example, animals kind of just go to the bathroom wherever they feel the need...would a shapeshifter kind of have that...instinct? Or, would Uneducated be a more accurate Negative Quality?

As I have never played third, I cannot put in any significant input, but judging by what I have seen mentioned, I would call it a penalty (say, -2) to social tests, depending on Shapeshifter variety, not an Uncouth quality. Uneducated means they cannot use any technical skills, and unless they are for some reason obligated to never enter modern civilization during their entire life, it would be a very bad choice as a racial feature.

QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 23 2008, 05:32 PM) *
If you can perceive the Astral, you can't be a Technomancer. It's either one or the other.

Agree'd

Also, Regeneration critter power alone would probably cost 50 Build Points to maintain balance (assuming such is possible). After taking into account their various other abilities, I am guessing an 80 point race, if Regeneration is included. It might work better to give them a bonus to Healing Tests.

I would also add in that you cannot have cyberware, with a few minor exceptions determined by the Game Master and your particular variety. Bioware should still be doable, as it is organic, and after Essence is paid, it is as much a part of you as your normal liver. Bioware may be rendered inactive while in your alternate form however.

QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 23 2008, 04:38 PM) *
for example, did you know that if you have the uncouth quality, you can't resist leadership tests? that's right, your uncouth character is a natural-born follower. not only that, but they are completely incapable of lying. i mean it. they are so bad at it, they can't even try it without special training. and not only that, but they always believe everything they are told. they never try to get a better deal from anyone (and in fact, are willing to take the worst deal you offer them) too... so tell me, who does that sound like to you? no one, that's fragging who. none of the people you might imagine as having the worst social skills imaginable have that. not even people who don't care who they offend have that. uncouth seriously needs to be rewritten, because in order to create a character who can do anything other than mindlessly do what anyone tells them to do you have to spend way more points on social skills than you gained from the negative quality in the first place.

Resisting the use of social skills is a resistance test, not a skill test. As such, it is unaffected by defaulting or Uncouth.

Taking the worst possible deal? You are unable to successfully negotiate for a higher price, unusual circumstances withstanding, but you are never obligated to take the worst price, unless you also have a Logic & Intuition of 1.

Put simply - you fail.
Jaid
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 24 2008, 07:45 PM) *
Resisting the use of social skills is a resistance test, not a skill test. As such, it is unaffected by defaulting or Uncouth.

Taking the worst possible deal? You are unable to successfully negotiate for a higher price, unusual circumstances withstanding, but you are never obligated to take the worst price, unless you also have a Logic & Intuition of 1.

Put simply - you fail.

eh, maybe you should read the rules before you open your mouth.

first off, there is no type of test called a resistance test. it doesn't exist. yes, there are tests that include resistance in their names, but these are not a linked group of tests with a special set of rules.

secondly, social skills are an opposed skill test. there's a chart on page 121 of SR4 that clearly reads "charisma-linked opposed tests". which, by the way, includes all of the social skills that i mentioned. in point of fact, any test where you use a given skill is a test of that skill... for example, the control rig gives +2 to vehicle skill tests while rigging, which includes any agility test while operating a humanoid drone (where you substitute your piloting skill for agility). this would make no sense unless the inclusion of the pilot skill into the dice pool turned it into a piloting test, since (for example) longarms is not a vehicle skill, and would not get a bonus from the control rig because of that.

thirdly, if you are completely unable to negotiate, then you are going to get the worst deal. once negotiation has begun, you have already committed to buying. if you just walk out after making the fixer show up and take all those risks, then you'll likely find that they don't show up in the future. so you are pretty much obligated to take the worst price, because if you don't accept the crappy price the other guy is offering when he shows up, it won't be long before people demand that you put a down payment equal to the crappiest price the other guy might offer, because they aren't going to stick their neck out for some dumbass who's going to make them look like an idiot. so yes, you pretty much are obligated to take the crappiest price around on anything.
WearzManySkins
@Muspellsheimr

Bioware is technically doable but first some scientists need to map out the DNA of the various shapeshifters.

Getting the shapeshifters to "willingly" be a DNA sample chest, I do not see happening. Since a vast majority of Corps involved in Genetic Research would be seeking shapeshifters willing or not, to be the new guinea pig. Bounties or rewards would be very large, so a shapeshifting character would not go around displaying regeneration powers in front of large groups of people, unless they wish to make the bounty hunters jobs easier.

Bioware needs to be "tweaked" to your DNA, from Augmentation not a easy task or one that can be done in the back of a BullDog Van. To tweak the Bioware, a map of the DNA is essential, and a understanding of how that creatures DNA responds to Bioware also. Then the bioware organ needs to be grown then surgically implanted. Since regeneration would severely limit the duration of anesthesia, and would have a major impact on any attempt at putting something that was not there since birth.

As for the build point of the race *shrugs* to each GM to make that call.

WMS
nathanross
I know this is somewhat off topic, but I also am interested in some costs and stats for starting Ghouls, Metavariants, Drakes, Shapeshifters and SURGE characters in SR4. I started a thread in Community Projects, please check it out:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20756
Moon-Hawk
In my games, combat is usually over within a turn. Maybe two, tops. After that, there's generally at least a minute or two to patch up, or else they're on their way out and the run is almost over anyway. High essence characters are pretty easy to heal in the first place, between a good medic test and a heal spell you can patch up a lot. Not to mention that if there's any actual shifting of shapes going on, armor is nil.
My point is, Regeneration isn't as spectacular as some people seem to think. Fights are fast enough that a few extra boxes are nice, (really, really nice) but not the be-all-end-all of combat. It's still all that, but maybe not the bag of chips.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Feb 25 2008, 01:45 AM) *
I would also add in that you cannot have cyberware, with a few minor exceptions determined by the Game Master and your particular variety. Bioware should still be doable, as it is organic, and after Essence is paid, it is as much a part of you as your normal liver. Bioware may be rendered inactive while in your alternate form however.


First of all, any surgeon attempting to install any kind of implant in a shapeshifter has to deal with the effects of the regeneration power.
As soon as the shifter is cut up, the wound begins to close.
As soon as tissue is removed to be replaced by an implant, it grows back.

There are various ways around this, though.
Using a scalpel that is also the surgeon's weapon focus, or is made of silver.
Or simply exposing the shapeshifter to silver, because being exposed to an allergen renders regeneration useless for the duration of the exposure.

If the allergy to silver is severe, though (i'm not sure wether it was a severe allergy in previous editions), this will not be an option, since it would quickly kill the character.
In this case, one would have to resort to the scalpel focus, which means that a) a surgeon that has the devices needed to conduct an operation on you is hard to find and b) could impose negative modifiers on the surgery test, since i'd assume more convenient, highly advanced laser scalpels and similar techniques to be the standard in SR surgery.


Now that we have gotten around the problem of cutting up our furry friends, there's various other issue to be considered :

I'll not go into details regarding the problem to cultivate bioware for an awakened paracritter.
Compared to the other problems, that's a minor inconvenience.

Shapeshifters are, as the name implies, able to...well shift shape.
Which results in drastic anatomic changes.
Imagine a human shrinks to the size of an eagle or expands to bear size, including drastic changes of the skeletal structure, placement, size and form of inner organs and so on- a complete anatomical rearrangement.
No surprise that SR3 companion stated that shifters who -by whatever means- would somehow get cyberware installed without it being simply grown out of their system in a horribly gross and painful process would lose the ability to change form as long as the implants would be inside their body.
In fact, it's better this way.
Just imagine inner impalement by your own titanium bone lacing while yu try to change form.
Or your MBW ripped from your spinal column, or dermal sheathing peeling off.
Ouch.

Speaking of gross and painful outgrowing of implants, that's another problem.
It's terribly difficult to keep ware inside of a shapeshifter.
There's rumors, i think, that some corporate scientists have done so succesfully (presumably as a way to "trap" shifters in one of their forms), but i don't think that process would be undergone by any shapeshifter voluntarily, since it might be terribly torturous.

It would be possible to play a shifter escaped from a lab doing such tests, though.
Konsaki
So, a basic 'race' brakedown would be something like this then?

Shifter (50BP)
Human attributes, Edge of 1

Free Pos Qualities:
Regeneration
Shift to animal form (Stat change based off animal type)
Natural language = Beastial or something to that effect

Negative Qualities:
Cyberware Rejection
Servere Rare Allergy to Silver
Uneducated (I would say this could be bought off with 20 BP, but doesnt cost pos qual BP.)
Magical by nature (No Technomancer Shifters)
nathanross
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Feb 25 2008, 06:52 PM) *
So, a basic 'race' brakedown would be something like this then?

Shifter (50BP)
Human attributes, Edge of 1

Free Pos Qualities:
Regeneration
Shift to animal form (Stat change based off animal type)
Natural language = Beastial or something to that effect

Negative Qualities:
Cyberware Rejection
Servere Rare Allergy to Silver
Uneducated (I would say this could be bought off with 20 BP, but doesnt cost pos qual BP.)
Magical by nature (No Technomancer Shifters)

Nice Konsaki. I think the animal form still needs to be stated out in reference to Base stats. Also, I don't think they should be limited to Human as base race. I assume they can look like whatever they want? Should they not get the racial bonuses though and not have to pay for race? Another thought, while I agree that they cannot be TM's, can they be Magicians/Mystic/Adepts? I forget the rules from SR3.

Also can I post this on my thread in Community Projects?

EDIT: Actually remembered that they get improved stats in both Human and Beast form depending on which animal they are. Also, they look very much like they animal they are when in Metahuman form, so I guess just exotic Human looking is fine.
Konsaki
QUOTE (nathanross @ Feb 25 2008, 07:06 PM) *
Nice Konsaki. I think the animal form still needs to be stated out in reference to Base stats.
That's a bit beyond me right now to figure out due to time constraints.
QUOTE
Also, I don't think they should be limited to Human as base race. I assume they can look like whatever they want?
As far as I know and read, Shifters only go from animal to human looking, though in their 'human' state they still show an animal trait or two (tail, ears, few feathers, etc). This would mean that a smart shifter might play himself off as a changling of some sort, that is until someone assensed his aura unless he could mask it.
QUOTE
Should they not get the racial bonuses though and not have to pay for race?
If you chose a tulip instead of a rose, but called the tulip a rose, is it really a rose?
QUOTE
Another thought, while I agree that they cannot be TM's, can they be Magicians/Mystic/Adepts? I forget the rules from SR3.
Aye, there is a higher percentage of shifter mages/adepts than in the normal metahuman population at large.
QUOTE
Also can I post this on my thread in Community Projects?
Be my guest.

QUOTE
EDIT: Actually remembered that they get improved stats in both Human and Beast form depending on which animal they are. Also, they look very much like they animal they are when in Metahuman form, so I guess just exotic Human looking is fine.
Pretty much, but the improved stats are less in human form, if any.
WearzManySkins
I do not see Uneducated Negative Quality as a automatic given. To me that is for the GM and the player to work out. If the shapeshifter comes from Awakened Yakut, restrictions on some skills groups should be expected. Awakened Yakut is merely one known place that shapeshifters are known be in numbers greater than zero.

IIRC the Japanese Fox Shapeshifter Kitsune, were known as intelligent and wise creatures, folklore did not show them as uneducated or uncouth.

Check the link I listed above for a good sampling of stats in non animal form and in animal form of shapeshifters.

In a world with SURGED Changelings, and with bioware to "allow" one to look like a SURGE Changeling, they might at most be confused with said changelings.

It would be a complex action to shift form, form animal to human or human to animal.

All beings with a magic rating of 1 or greater can be Awakened into Mage, Shaman or Adepts, this would include Shapeshifters.

The current SR4, one has to chose Mage, Shaman, Mystic or Adept to get a magic rating, ip so facto all shapeshifters are Awakened. Yes the older iterations of SR they could do with out a Magic Attribute/Rating, but with SR4 why be a shapeshifter if your regeneration ability is Body + 0.

As for posting in the community forum, go for it.

WMS
Kastie
Nice guys. Just when I think I have enough information to make the attempt to convert my shapeshifter, you guys add a bunch of ideas on me and make me rethink thing...

Seriously, this is much more than I could have asked for in advice.

Kastie
nathanross
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Feb 25 2008, 08:36 PM) *
That's a bit beyond me right now to figure out due to time constraints.

That's fine. It is good to have a price (50BP) set. Part of me wonders if that is perhaps not enough, but I think it is balanced nicely with Uneducated/Ludite. They are animals afterall. It's not that they are unintelligent, just that they need to work harder to understand human society, as they were not born into it. So a 20BP Uncouth/Uneducated/Ludite flaw sounds like it works pretty well for balance.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (nathanross @ Feb 25 2008, 10:49 PM) *
That's fine. It is good to have a price (50BP) set. Part of me wonders if that is perhaps not enough, but I think it is balanced nicely with Uneducated/Ludite. They are animals afterall. It's not that they are unintelligent, just that they need to work harder to understand human society, as they were not born into it. So a 20BP Uncouth/Uneducated/Ludite flaw sounds like it works pretty well for balance.


On this I disagree.

By Shadows of Asia under the "guidance" of a Free Spirit, they "assumed" control over a large territory. Uneducated and Uncouth beings can not used to describe what was used.

Correction they are not Animals, they are beings that in their normal form "Look" like Animals, but they are intelligent/thinking beings. They are a different form of intelligent being, yes they have things that make them better than us, but they too have flaws. They are not Dogs that can turn into humans but Dog looking beings that turn into humans.

Their outlook is vastly different than those of SR4 races for the most part, Good or Evil does not apply. They are different, but that difference does not make them uneducated or uncouth. That is another holdover form a poorly thought out and executed attempt at Shapeshifters.

They are not spike babies or goblinized beings, they have been around for a long time before the times of SR4, could they shapeshift all the time, no like the Elves and Dragons when the Mana/Magic levels spiked, they too could use their innate abilities. The legends of the Werewolves more than likely stem form times of Mana/Magic spikes.

So that means they have been in and around human society for many many years. They understand society more than most would guess, why do you think the majority of them live in the fringe of society. They have learned to do so to survive, and yes they have survived.

Balance*chuckles* please lets not go there. Go and read Frank Trollman's posts on Balance, he puts into words better than I can.

Do not just put some fur on a race, and have them behave human, shapeshifters are not human, never been human. Like many things in the world of SR4 they are Alien to us humans.

Not being born into a society does not mean swat about being able to "fit in". I have not been born into Norse Society but I would fit in.

In the world of SR4 languages or ability to verbally communicate is not much of a issue, the Linguasofts and needed non implanted gear area easily available.

In SR4 there is no Human Society, there more than 20+ societies in SR4, those are just the big ones,,, the smaller societies are in even larger numbers.

As for some form stats go to the link I posted no reason to reinvent the wheel.

WMS
WearzManySkins
Ok here is the link again
http://shadowrunsurvivalguide.com/ShapeShifter.aspx

Here is the content on that web page
CODE
Bear
Human Form: +1 body, +1 Strength
Animal Form: +5 Body, -1 Agility, +5 Strength, -2 Willpower, +1 Reach, Dermal Armor (+2 Body)

Fox
Human Form: +1 Int, +2 Cha, +2 Wil
Animal Form: +1 Int, +2 Cha, +2 Wil, -2 Bod, -2 Str, +1D6 Initiative

Leopard
Human Form: No modifiers
Animal Form: +1 Bod, +1Str, +2D6 Initiative

Seal
Human Form: +1 Cha
Animal Form: +1 Cha, +2Bod, +1Agi, +1d6 Initiative

Tiger
Human Form: +1 Str
Animal Form: +4 Bod, +1 Agi, +4 Str, -1 Int, -2 Wil, +1 Reach, +2D6 Initiative.

Wolf
Human Form: No modifiers.
Animal Form: +1 Bod, +1 Agi, +1D6 Initiative

Eagle
Human Form: +1Cha, +1 Log
Animal Form: -2 Wil, -2 Bod, -2 Str, +2d6 initiative, +2 Rea, +3 Agi.
________________________________________________________________________

Changing their form is a complex action, and does not include their gear. All gear will have a chance to get broken if not set down first, and all clothing will be ripped (Including Body armor).
nathanross
Thanks for the stats!

As for your other comments, Ill do my best to address them, but there are a lot of claims and it's late.

First, I am lacking in written support, but my view of Shapeshifters was that they sentient animals. I always assumed that this and their inherent magical ability were related, though you do not seem to think so.

In relation to society, they do not fit. They are not human, and were not born from a human, and they are above the animals they were born from. Is their intelligence the same as ours? Do they view the world the same way? Would they even if they were brought up as a human?

I use the uncouth/uneducated flaw to represent the fact that they had to spend time and effort to attune themselves (if you will) to us. Im not saying that they are uncouth in the same way that humans are (though there may be some similarities), or that they aren't as much or more intelligent than we are, just that they are not human.

I have only ever played in a group with a Shapeshifter once, and it worked mainly because it was street level/Plan B type runs. I certainly wouldn't want a wolf facing for the team. A fox might do nice though with some proper training.

Also, dont underestimate the similarities and connection between humans. We are far more similar than we are different.
WearzManySkins
From the Help with Ghouls Thread/Post, quote from Frank Trollman
QUOTE
The SR3 Companion rules were never written or intended to do anything other than fuck over player characters, something that they do with astounding success. They are very unpopular rules, and rightly so. It's like the Shadowrun Companion Shapeshifter rules - they were written to hose PCs, not to make viable characters or to simulate the critters who actually existed in the game world.


Good point he makes, and I agree.

WMS
nathanross
Could you post a link to the topic in question? I would like to understand the full context of that quote. Personally, I have nothing wrong with Shapeshifter PCs, so I guess I dont understand how it hoses the rest of the team.

Also, some references to books where info about the non-PC shifters can be found would be great if you have some time.
Malicant
It was this post in this thread.
WearzManySkins
I have no issue(s) with Shapeshifting characters. Just attempts to use the SR3 Companion with all its Warts and stuff, like uneducated and uncouth. smile.gif

WMS
Muspellsheimr
I strongly disagree with Uncouth/Uneducated as a race-defined negative quality for a species who has been living in contact with humanity, with access to the technologies available. If they are used as a species-defining trait, it should be because of something in their brain chemistry, not because of how they are raised. If you are arguing that it is because of their upbringing, it should be used as a trait that is common, but not always, possessed, and leave it as a player choice reflected by the bonus points.

As for them being awakened, it is a given with the regeneration power. For game effects, I would simply see them as having a magic attribute, increased as normal, but only benefiting the Regeneration power unless they take an awakened quality, with the added benefit that they could obtain Adept, Mystic Adept, or Magician qualities after character creation.

@Rasumichin
Cyberware by default, I agree, should not be allowed - even without regeneration, the shifting would screw over most of it. But I would possibly allow an internal commlink for some varieties, although much more expensive for having to map out two sets of brains to place it correctly and maintain it's functionality. Other cyberware would be possible, although difficult to implement & dependent on shifter variety.

Bioware, on the other hand, is purely organic, and once essence is paid, is treated as one of your natural organs. As such, the shifting & regeneration would affect it the same way as it does your natural body. The problem of implementation might increase the cost a bit, but is not difficult. You cannot heal a knife wound if the knife is being held in you. Simply brace what needs to be opened so it cannot close. The major problem, depending on how integrated in society shifters have become, would be finding someone to give you the bio/gene tech without you becoming a corporate guinea pig, as pointed out earlier.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Bioware, on the other hand, is purely organic, and once essence is paid, is treated as one of your natural organs.


True. But remember that Bioware is developed for specific creatures. And while an Ork, an Elf, or a Dwarf is a Metahuman and has human blood types, a shapeshifter is a jaguar. Or an eagle. Or a fox. There's no such thing as a Type O organ for an eagle because there's no available cell line of eagle cells lacking any surface proteins marking the cells as being a foreign body to an eagle immune system.

Any bioware you made for a shapeshifter would literally have to be made for that shapeshifter. And while you keep them from regenerating by just piercing them with a silver needle until the organ took, you'd have to make some kind of crazy unique thing every time you made them any kind of enhancement at all.

-Frank
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