Back in SR3, you were pretty much preordained to fail horribly if:

-You had no etiquette skill and/or a low Charisma
-A Body or Willpower below 4-5
-Only one initiative pass
-No or little armor

Now that we're in SR4, what are the new indispensable skills/attributes? What should no character ever be without? I'm assuming Dodge and Perception go into this category; is etiquette still there or did it move to a different social skill?

Stealth as skill group should be mandatory for every shadowrunner who wants to survive more than 3 days in the sprawls. And yes, Ettiquette still exists, and is now part of the Influence skill group. Oh, and every shadowrunner should know how to defend him/herself.

Check out the SR 4 BBB.

( A ) The necessary knowledge and equipment to set up and maintain your own commlink security, including your own programs. (NEVER, EVER trust the team's Decker to "handle it" for you.)

( B ) The common sense not to buy into "wireless is good, always use it" meme that the megas want you to buy into, Runners have been pulling off jobs for decades without this fancy AR crap, and so can you.

( C ) A datajack.

Skills: Negotiation, Perception, Dodge must all be taken
Attributes: Body and Willpower must never go below 3.
Initiative: should never go below 2 passes

(B) sounds like somebody who's behind the times. US Postal Service worked back in the day as well, but everything I deal with is email now. Wireless is good, just keep it secure. And not working with AR is denying yourself that extra edge that could save your ass when the drek hits the fan. I'd rather run full out wireless and worry about a hacker getting to my stuff (from a range of 3 meters usually), then blind myself in a very dehilibating way.

Old Schools good, but if your behind the times, you will just be left behind.

For me, two skills are essential to every character: Perception and Etiquette, both for obvious reason. Dodge is usually handled by Gymnastics.
Apart from that, NEVER design a character concept without a commlink. Your fellow players will hate your for it.

Perception.

Infiltration.

-Frank

Seems like someone has trust issues...
This is like saying "don't trust the mage to handle magic for you", "don't trust the sammy to handle combat for you" or "don't trust the face to handle talking for you"...
You should trust your Decker to handle this for you...

And 2 more of my

EDIT: Crud, forgot to give my answer to the OP...
I don't think there is anything a single character needs, but there are things every team needs...
Matrix defense and Magic defense can mostly be handled by the decker and mage...
Combat defence is tricky, a face should never get in combat and if he does he should look for cover and stay there till the sammy turns around and starts mocking the face for being a coward, but things rarely go as planned...
And even though it is nice to be able to talk, cha 3 and influence 2 seems a waste since you'll let your face handle it 99% of the time anyway...

EDIT2: And about wireless, and AR, they really do have their advantages, even though they open up new problems...
In a game I was a GM aid, the sammy went down (from stun damage) and the decker took control of the sammies cyberarms and killed the 2 remaining secguards by shooting them in the back...

How? Are you on full defense all the time? Even than Dodge would be usefull.

Negotiation (used to find new gear, and to defend vs Con), Perception, Dodge(no dodge = no full defense)
some minimal ability to drive a car/bike, shoot a gun, and survive a melee.

body defines maximum armor. low body = no armor= no soak= make new character. about body 4 to have good overall survivability.

a high stat will now let you get by without some skills. agility 5(7)= 6 dice for unskilled agility tests. this will be enough for some things, and you can get the skill for it later. other things this wont work with (never default demolitions, or throwing explosive grenades!)

past that... Commlinks, get firewall 6 and analyze at system rating. you roll firewall+analyze when being hacked to detect the intruder. rating 3 is affordable for most characters, and 9 dice will usually overcome an attackers stealth program in the time to takes to bypass a firewall(6+) threshold.

remember to buy at least 2 contacts with your BP, and to get your fake sin+permits. cyberware scanners are fairly common and cheap after all.

I think that topic might've already been discussed to death here in the past so I won't start a new argument, but in short:

In ranged combat (which occurs most often in SR), Dodge has no benefit over Gymnastics other than if I go for Full defense, I can get a few more dice by specializing Dodge into ranged combat. If you plan on creating a melee centric combat character, I agree, Dodge might be more useful.
But in all other cases the all-around usefulness of Gymnastics outweighs the very limited use of the Dodge skill for me.

That depends on how good your decker is and how much you trust them, doesn't it?


Speak for yourself. I've been rigging my characters up with that "fancy AR BattleTac crap" for as long as I've been able to.


Or a headware commlink.

Well, yeah. Naturally.

What I'm looking for here are the unwritten rules, the bits of wisdom (like "Etiquette is king") that you don't find in the books, that only come through actually playing.

I really don't get it. How can Gymnastics outweight Dodge, when both are added together on full defense? Whatever, since it has been obviously talked to death, I sure can find the results of such discussion somewhere rotting around here

But the picture of my character dancing around to avoid beeing hit is just wrong.

When you add a skill to your defense you have a number of choices of skills to use in different circumstances. Dodge has the advantage that it can be selected at any point you would be allowed to select any skill. But if you have a melee combat skill and you have Gymnastics, then you can select something all the time. And then getting Dodge on top of that is a waste of points.

So if you have Gymnastics Or Unarmed Combat, then you would be better off taking the other one than taking Dodge. You'd get the same bonuses to your defense pool but you'd also be able to flip out or kick people in the face. Dodge only pays the bills when your character wouldn't have Gymnastics and wouldn't have Unarmed Combat. And that's a narrow (but non-zero) slice of the Shadowrunner population.

Dodge isn't a skill for combat monsters, it's a skill for non-combat characters.

-Frank

I just wrote him a PM because I didn't want to add to the recent wave of massive thread derailing turning this into a "Can Lofwyr dodge my Dikote'd ally spirit thrown at him with a weapon focus catapult" But yes, I totally forgot about Full parry. It's been ages since I read the melee rules.

Back on topic: I also find it useful to have several secondary skills with one token point as this 4BP investment nets me 2 dice more on the appropriate tests for cheap.

Edit: VVVV I made my points on what I differ with him, other than that he doesn't need to be addressed further because his post contains pure truth already.

What, just because a guy's got a low post count you ignore him?

I think Daier has the best take so far. Though I'm not so sure about negotiation. I think that low charisma characters with no social skills are viable, so long as they don't put themselves into situations where social tests are necessary.

But Peception is 100% required, or you'll die. You need Dodge, or you'll die. You need body at least 3 otherwise you can't wear even halfway decent armor, and you'll die. And you need Willpower at least 3 because otherwise you won't resist the weakest of spells or social tests against you, even using edge. And on initiative, the 1 oass runner is not exactly viable in any sort of semi-threatening combat situation.

Unless, say, your melee skill is blades and you have an assault rifle in your hands. Dodge is pretty much necessary there because you can't melee parry with an inappropriate weapon.

More than one initiative pass

perception

infiltration and or shadowing

body at least 3 and armor (and cover!)

etiquette is good for pros but you might survive without it

Some kind of commlink proficiency/ security

So, pretty much what every one said

Cheers!

Max

...Forgot to add: a hidden locker somewhere with a new fake ID, a pistol, a medkit, one set of clothes, some nuyen and air tickets to another continent.

Cheers!

Max

Great idea, but what in the Sixth World would you deem the right locartion for such a locker? For every location I can come up with in my mind, I immediately find something that could easily compromise it.

Edit: I just now realized how dumb this question might sound but where exactly is "hidden" in Shadowrun? An abandoned building somewhere in the Barrens? Some squatters will sooner or later discover your locker and make off with the contents. A secure locker at a bank? You will need to provide ID and you will be recorded by security cameras which are things you want really want to avoid under the circumstances that you need the contents in.
Hand it to a very close friend? Well, your contacts are the first people, the guys who are out to get you will probably go... and well... you get my problem.

Im thinking a coffin hotel "room"

I believe that Perception is the most key skill for any character, having no perception at all, makes things interesting.

As for the rest depends upon your character concept and team mates.

Having no negotiation skills mean you pay the going rate, like to today, you walk into a store pay the list/quoted price and walk out.

As for extra initiative passes again depends upon GM, character concept and team mates.

WMS

Bus and train stations. Permanently rented coffin hotel rooms. Lockers outside of amusements parks, malls or other attractions. The list is almost endless.

I was thinking: buy a Horseman under the back-up ID, fill it with your supplies, and drone it to an airport's longterm parking facility. When you need it, you can call it up and have it meet you wherever you are.

Lockers are cleaned out semi-regularly, especially at amusement parks. They actually cut off locks and use a master key if anything is left overnight. Coffins would require you regularly visit to "renew" the room, which kinda defeats the purpose of a "secret" locker, plus they're not that cheap.

Airport/bus station's your best bet, but who knows how long they leave lockers alone?

The trunk of a burnt out car in a junkyard...
Always works for me...

Not in my experience, although I admit I hesitated to add amusement parks (which is why I stipulated 'outside'). I have used mall lockers in numerous cities for months on end (with only sporadic visits) ... and airport locker in LA for 3 months (never visiting) ... a bus station locker in New Orleans for 34 months (visiting twice) ... and various other locker locations for various lengths of time. Hell, I've even lived in U-Store-It places. Never had a problem. Guess I'm lucky.

As for the coffin hotels, well, that's why I specified 'permanently rented'.

Or use a long term storage depot like u-stowit or similar. Most will just let you park a car there for however long so long as you keep paying and the car doesn't start pissing fluids out (That is the policy pasted on the wall at my local one anyway). They also may get upset if the registration expires, but if you leave a car in a lot for a year it's not going to work when you check it next anyway. They'll never check aside from that. Some don't know who's use(d) the facility in terms of coming and goings either. Renting a lockable garage from them will do nicely as well, offering a large secure storage space.

Another long term storage option - the post office. While the boxes you get are not very big, but they are big enough for a commlink, pistol, and some certified credsticks, and a nanopaste disguise. They expect extremely (4+ years) long rentals, and again, so long as you are paid up they are never going to check.

I think you could even get bigger boxes - safe deposit as opposed to P.O boxes with the same security, but I've never investigated the possibilities in person.

I didn't want to but I did it again. I derailed it. I better move it to a thread of it's own then.

On topic then

I tend to agree with frank that the only really bare knuckle essentials are perception and inflitration, and everything else depends on the GM. But if I was doing up a character to take into a one shot with a GM I didn't know, it would have atleast 1 point in

Perception (and assensing if applicable)

The influence group (talking to people is often critical critical, and while leadership is deadweight, the other 3 skills carry the team)

The stealth group (Really you could if short of BP drop down to infilitration, but the rest are often useful)

Automatics (or a proxy there of, automatics is just the most flexible)

Gymnastics and Unarmed combat for a combat centric character, Dodge for a non combat type (Unarmed combat is always good because you can easily argue that your feet and head and elbows are A) Free and B) a weapon, and gynmastics covers ranged dodging as well as flipping out, running, jumping, swimming at that other good stuff.)

A body of 3 plus (for armor) is only needed if you have physical skills that would be impaired by the penalties from wearing more armor than twice your body. Specifically, if your agility and reaction are low, having a low body doesn't matter since you were going to be rolling 1 die anyways. But, if you do go this route, I HIGHLY recommend picking up a wheelchair drone and adding some armor too it.

I haven't noticed anything taking the throne that Etiquette had in every other edition. It was such a badass skill. You used it to get info from ALL your contacts, but there was also this sort of weird zeitgeist about needing to take it. Like "Chummer, you're going to not have an etiquette skill? Man, you just don't DO that." It is an amazing skill in previous editions; the amount of worship people gave it far outstripped that. It was just part of RL shadowrun player culture that EVERYONE needed Street Etiquette.

Now, it seems like there's a lot more skills you need, so nothing is the singular champion of the skill world that Etiquette used to be.

Hm. So, we have something like two tiers of necessary here:

Critical: If you don't have these, you probably won't live to regret it.
-Perception (should have a decent number of dice for perception: 5+ maybe?)
-Infiltration (should have a decent number of dice for sneaking: 5+ maybe?)
-At least one social skill
-Willpower 3+
-Either Body 3+ and armor (combat), or a whole lot of armor and forget about moving around much (non-combat)
-Either Dodge (non-combat) or melee skill + Gymnastics (combat)
- ((My addition)) At least Edge 2

Needed: If you don't have these, you deserve what you get.
-The Stealth group
-The Influence group
-At least two initiative passes
-Some sort of multi-target and single-target offensive ability (combat spell(s), Automatics, grenades and Thrown weapons, etc)
-Plan B pack in a dead-drop (fake ID, medkit, disguise kit, food, cash)
-A SECURED Commlink
- ((My addition)) At least Edge 3-4 for combat characters and non-mages


That sound right? And, of course, the million nuyen question: Which social skill is more critical: Etiquette, Negotiation? Con?

If anyone is going to tell me "there is no such thing as a secure locker where you can stash stuff and it will more likely than not be left alone in all of Seattle," I will throw a freakin TANTRUM. Are you kidding me? That souldn't even be an issue. There are millions of people, and there are hundreds of places that rent storage space. And in shady places (of which there are many) they do it on the hush hush.

On commlinks, I wonder. If your team has a hacker, you can slave your commlink to his, so they have to hack your hacker first. If not, you can always just hardwire important things. So if a hacker gets control of your Meta Link, you can just turn it off, and then melt it into a lump of worthless plastic so they can't use it to mess with you later.

I don't quite agree with the list, but none of them would be a waste of BP, that is a fact...
I'd say Con>Negotiate>Etiquette, but personally, unless I'm the face, I'd take intimidate, it avoids more combat that the others, in my experience...

Well what would you change? I'll be the first to admit I'm not the expert on SR4 here; that's why I'm asking the question in the first place.

in my mind, Con, Etiquette, and Intimidation are similar to Pistols, Longarms and Automatics. it all depends on what sort of gameplay you're going for.

Negotiation is the skill that gets you more money. If you're a shadowrunner, making money is (usualy) your first priorety.

But to use the list:
Critical: If you don't have these, you probably won't live to regret it.
-Perception - More is better, but as long as you don't default, you should be able to manage
-Infiltration - Not critical, leave the sneaking to the sneakers, they won't want you along anyway...
-At least one social skill - Not critical
{-Willpower 3+
-Either Body 3+ and armor (combat), or a whole lot of armor and forget about moving around much (non-combat)
-Either Dodge (non-combat) or melee skill + Gymnastics (combat)} I'll answer these 3 together, while they do increase your odds of surviving, what I said about combat defense above is what keeps my face alive, and does a good job at it too, admitted, I am going to improve my body and dodge, because I'd like to be able to do more during combat, but it does prove they are not critical...
- ((My addition)) At least Edge 2 - I've played characters with 1 to 8 edge, and 1 to avoid certain death is enough, more is, of course better...

Needed: If you don't have these, you deserve what you get.
-The Stealth group - Not critical
-The Influence group - Not critical
-At least two initiative passes - Not critical
-Some sort of multi-target and single-target offensive ability (combat spell(s), Automatics, grenades and Thrown weapons, etc) - Not critical
-Plan B pack in a dead-drop (fake ID, medkit, disguise kit, food, cash) - Not critical
-A SECURED Commlink - Not critical
- ((My addition)) At least Edge 3-4 for combat characters and non-mages - Not critical

Now, to turn this into my list:
Critical:
Perception 1 or more

Recommended:
-Willpower 3+
-Body 3+
-Armor As much as you can without hindering you (which means, if you don't need Agi or Rea, you pile it on)...
-Dodge 2+ People will disagree, but it's a double whammy when you go on full defense and everyone should go on full defense the first round of combat to get into the right position...
-Plan B pack in a dead-drop (fake ID, medkit, disguise kit, food, cash) is always a good idea...
-Edge 3+

Note that this is for a a character who is part of a team...
The team would have other requirements, at least one member should have Influence group, Biotech Group, Matrix skills (regular or TM), Magic skills...
And of course 1 or more combat animal...

I think that's about it, mind you, I am far from an expert myself...

Not really, they are all skills that help each other. Without proper Etikette you wont know which person you can start Negotiating with savely. Or when Intimidation might save you some heat.
Don't forget that Intimidation helps against others using it aswell. Nothing beats the kick ass Streetsam until he is being schooled by some Gangmember with the Intimidation skill.
Nothing is more frustrating for a player either. Mine learned the hard way back in SR3.

Okay, I'll bite and delurk for a second...


Which social skill you take for character (and I ascribe to the notion you should take at least one) depends entirely on your team role.

Negotiation: Obviously, someone on your team should max this out. Its the best way to not get hosed six ways to Sunday by Mr. Johnson. Its also handy for anyone that might need to pay bribes on a regular basis. Essential for: Faces, team's backup negotiator.

Con: Its the best way to talk your way out of a bad spot should you fumble your stealth-related skills. Essential for: Infiltrators, Faces

Etiquette: Not as god-like as in previous editions, but IMO, this is essential for maintaining good relations with your contacts. I allow people to use Etiquette to gain new contacts, improve existing ones, and smooth over rocky situations (like when the team completely fumbles a run and the fixer/johnson/etc. is thinking about ditching the team). Essential for: Faces, anyone with low loyalty contacts.

Intimidation: Its a good way to avoid a fight, if you look like your game can back up your mouth. Its also good for getting info out of NPCs when the Con/Negotiation/Etiquette route isn't working. Essential for: Combat mages, muscleboys, razorgirls, orks, trolls, that psychotic-looking dwarf that snorts novacoke like its going out of style.

Leadership: Yeah... Probably the lamest of the social skills in every edition that I can think of. I'm pretty kind to people who take it though, I'll let players use it to boss around NPCs (especially wage slaves, squatters, etc.), bolster NPCs morale, and so on. Can be used in place of Con provided you have a disguise/ID to help convince people you're supposed to be in charge. Leadership based cons don't stand up well to scrutiny. Essential for: No one, really, except former drill instructors, cops/EMS, and high-power executives.

Perception is one of the biggest things, and stealth. Someone getting the drop on you in SR4 really, really sucks, but getting the drop on someone else is extremely nice. As for secure places to drop stuff, I suppose you could set up a Drone car to just drive continously if you know how to set it up right. Which would actually be pretty neat, since you would have an entire car full of emergency gear. Though I suppose the Star might notice that after a while.

I go with:

Skills: Etiquette, Perception, Dodge OR Gymnastics, and (maybe) at least one combat skill of choice.

Honestly, depending on the type of game, you don't *need* stealth right off the bat. We've played off-beat groups of folks who ended up running who didn't have any reason to have the skill in their backgrounds. In general, though, a point of Infiltration or Shadowing is nice to have(but yeah, aformentioned Agility of 5 or 6 should be enough to hold you over).


Body and Willpower 3+. You could MAYBE sneak body to a 2 with certain concepts, but they better be very, very, non combative.


And yeah, a commlink, and i like datajacks myself, too.

I'd say there is very little that EACH AND EVERY PC will need to survive.
Heck, if you play the EDG 8 Mr. Lucky, many of the skills listed can be replaced with Edge use.
I agree that a BOD or WIL of less than 3 is a liability.

Perception checks should come up often, and from a metagaming point of view, it's no fun if the GM comes up with awesome scenery and clever clues but you never get to hear them because your character isn't paying attention.

Alternate angle: what does each team need? You don't need for each and every character to have Counterspelling, but it's really nice if one of the team can provide that to all the others. You don't need everyone to have First Aid, but it's really good if two or three have that (if only one has it and she's the one knocked out, that's bad); same for the Heal spell. It's good to have a scout with good Infiltration and Perception and/or a mage with detection magic. It's good to have a sniper (and/or a mage with equivalent tactical options). It's good to have a Face.

Does every team in every campaign need a hacker or rigger or technomancer? I think they don't; it reduces options both for the PCs and for what storylines the GM can introduce, but it doesn't mean that the GM is ethically obliged to wipe them out in the first run.

The street samurai seems least necessary, because there are other ways to neutralize opponents.

If a team had a high-Charisma Shaman/Face, a high-Logic Hermetic/Hacker/Gadgeteer, and an adept infiltrator/gunbunny/driver, those three could cover a lot of the bases, assuming the two mages had, between them, a good mix of spells.

Is there anything for which you really need a 'wared PC on the team? Or is it just fun for that one player?

Lol, until a game session ago (when a new player joined my game) I had a team of 4 characters, none of whom had any ranks in perception. It was the blind leading the blind

Fun to GM and watch!

Other things depend very much on the team's play style ... I have only one member in my team with any ranks in negociate (or any of the cha-linked skills) and they drop 16 or so dice when using those skills. Nobody else bothered with cha-linked skills at all, choosing to specialise more heavily in their own areas.

It does mean that (assuming the team are all together) they are very strong, since the razorboys can cause more damage with a wider array of weapons, the hacker has bought [every program in the book] at rating 6 and the shaman is just rock solid. Split one member of team away though and things starts falling apart.

However, this thread HAS reminded me of the maximum armour you can wear based on Body rule! I haven't been enforcing that and I suspect some team members (and I'm looking at our face here) has been getting away with wearing much heavier armour than she should!

Body 3 was much more important before the release of arsenal, because you wanted a chamelon suit with the tricked out bits which was 6/6.

Now you want to jam in FFBA but have much more flexibility in your armour arrangement. 4 probably optimal now , because it lets you use a full suit of FFBA with something else. 3 is a bit tight, even light armoured clothing tips you over, so you need to jig somehting up with armour peices.

So, then we have three tiers:

Critical: You don't have it you're probably dead
-Perception 1 or more
-Willpower 3+
-Body 3+
-Armor As much as you can without hindering you (which means, if you don't need Agi or Rea, you pile it on)... --I'd argue these three should still remain in "Critical" status.

Recommended: You don't have it you'd better be damn good
-Dodge 2+ (or Dodge(Ranged) 1(+2), for non-combat types)
--Can be subbed for an unarmed skill + Gymnastics
-Etiquitte 1+ and/or Negotiation 1+ -- for anyone with contacts
-Plan B pack in a dead-drop (fake ID, medkit, disguise kit, food, cash)
-Edge 3+
-Commlink/Basic Commlink Security (Firewall 5)
-Some sort of offensive capability

Team Recommended: Someone on the team really ought to have this
-Full Commlink Security (high Firewalls, Response, Agent w/ attack programs to act as IC, computer/cracking Skill Groups, etc)
-Vehicle skills
-Magic skills/countermeasures
-B&E skills
-Influence group
-Many initiative passes and a decent * weapon
--* = ranged, area-effect. Should have one or more of each


How's that look?

EB; that looks pretty nice there. I agree that the tiers make a little more sense; because we have played, and had fun with, games where, say, we weren't stealthy...we just didn't take those types of jobs, and the GM geared the campaign more tailored to our characters. Of course, there are times where we'd get thrown a loop and had to improvise...that's part of the challenge and the fun. But a GM that sees his players are interested in playing tough, non stealth needing ex ganger/kneebreakers and writes a campaign that a team of Covert Ops Faces would have trouble with is vigorously stamping out fun as far as i'm concerned.

I'd even go as far as to add a 4th tier: ''Cool to Have if you want to save nuyen from not having to hire somebody''. Demolitions might go here.

Of course, the bigger the team, sometimes the more leeway you have. I've had concepts for characters who were fairly one-dimentional...a couple biggies and a little smattering of a few other skills; ie, not skill centric at all. I don't think any concept should be left out in the cold. Sometimes great characters come out of someone who is only good at a few things. Hey, teamwork comes into play here.

I think a way to prevent these things is to make sure that everyone is on the same page before it starts; if the whole gang wants to play Big Paranormal Game Hunters, Influence group and the Disguise skill might not be so important, unless you want to try to con the Juggernaut out of eating your truck or dressing like a log while you follow the Behemoth. (Negotations might be cool for negotating bounty prices.)

Grenades. Pepper punch, flash-paks and flash-bangs. That's all you need

On a more serious note, EB's list is good, but I'd add some stealth. At the very least a decent infiltration skill.
And for my games I'd also add a tactics skill (or someone with leadership and tactics) but that's because of some sort of houserules I use.

One thing I see... is that stealth isn't really necessary for everyone. But you really need at least one person with it, preferably also with good B&E skills to open doors. But yeah, you don't want to be defaulting on

Also in some cases, magic can substitute for a skill requirement... an improved invis, levitating mage isn't necessarily making much if any noise though he'll stick out on the astral. To mundanes he'll be pretty hard to spot or hear and has entry options such as the roof or upper windows which are rough even for the ninjas to get to.

And by the time you're an experienced runner and not just 400BP out of chargen, you should have enough karma to spare or have other means and methods at your disposal such as top-flight equipment to boost your stealth pool.