Common sense would dictate that if you are an elf, and you have your eyes replaced with cyber eyes, and no mods, then you no longer have Low Light vision. But I have failed to find a relevant reference in canon to use. I find this a lot, people have there eyes replaced, yet they still claim there natural eye benefits. Does anyone know of any canon rules that apply?

It was in canon print back in SR2 IIRC, but I don't know about SR3. Any GM with half a brain would say they loose natural stuff if they get a cyber replacement though.

Check the metahuman archetypes with cyberware in SR3. I think they have entries like "Cybereye (minus natural thermo vision)" for the dwarf decker, etc.

Found it! Check out SR3, page 299.

But that's for full eye replacement. There's also retinal modification (enhancing the existing meat, instead of replacing it). Granted, with retinal mods, you don't get .5 essence worth of extra eye mods for 'free' (each retinal mod impacts essence independently), but other than that, they're essentially the same.

Retinal mods are just "adjustements", so they don't eliminate natural vision enhancement.

Right.

Now here is another question...

Can mages still see on the astral if they have their eyes replaced with cyber eyes? I was told no back in the day and never bothered to verify it. So now, whenever I make a mage character, I just buy retinal mods, rather than eyes with mods in them. I'm also pretty cure that a mage has to have Optical Mag, rather than Electric Mag in order to cast using that, right?

The optical thingy is right.

However, since cybereyes are paid with Essence are a part of the metahuman body, they still work on the Astral.

So as long as you get Optical Mag put into the cybereye, you're ok? Sweet, I'll keep that in mind from now on.

Oh no, what sort of a monster have I created?

No, the mage can still have electronic magnification I'm pretty sure, because it's paid for with Essence and thus still a part of the mage's body.

~J

Boy, today was a good day to bring my book to work with me.

SR3, page 300, under Vision Magnification

Fair enough then.
I should start bringing my book around with me

~J

Quibble: but what about magicians without cybereyes, just retinal mods? /quibble

I'd say optical only.

I mean, why would it be different?

can you take ultrasound vision as a retinal mod?

The problem is that Cybereyes themselves are "artificial". They're not physically seeing the target, they're seeing what a mechanical device senses and transmits to their brain. Thus if the "paid for with Essence" argument holds up for that, it should hold up for other forms of vision enhancement that are paid for with Essence. Such as thermographic vision, ultrasound, and even microscopic vision. Yet for some reason, vision magnification doesn't work unless it's specifically "optical," even though none of those other options have to be so.

Yes, it is somewhat inconsistent, but regardless it seems to imply that whatever was magically available from the original image is lost by piping it through the electronic magnification. Why there are doubble standards I don't know.

I've just always read it to be that while the optical magnification just make the image closer, thus easier to see, the electronic magnification produces a [/I]new[I] image, and is useless to mages because it keeps them from seeing the original image. In that case you have this set.

Regular eyes, optical mag retinal mod: Sure thing, real eyes seeing a real image.
Regular eyes, electronic mag retinal mod: No dice. The eyes see a false image.
Cybereyes, optical: Yes again, the image is there, percieved with "paid for" sight.
Cybereyes, electronic: Nope. The eyes and imaging have been payed for, but the image is still not really an image.

Strange that an image that is optically magnified then electronically processed and transmitted to the brain is somehow more "live" than an image that is electronic the whole way.

Cochise, while what you are saying makes since in the spirit of "paid for with essence", the book had a double standard that states you must have Optical Mag to cast spells through it. If you don't like it, house rule it, but by canon, it is clear that Electrical Mag doesn't work with spell casting.

But as I nitpicked, it only specifically states that magnification in cybereyes needs to be optical. Nothing is stated about retinal modifications, in which case the paid-with-essence rule takes precedence.

~J

((duh, nevermind))

I would still say that you are nitpicking way too much.

As long as you don't magnify, you can use the eyes with electronic mag to cast spells. Only when you magnify your eye vision, the electronic magnification replaces your normal eye sight. Only while actually using the electronic mag, you lose the ability to target with spells.

With optical magnification, it is as if you had a big ass binocular lense installed, it twists to zoom in.

OPTICAL ZOOM = Bending light to focus on a smaller area which results in a closer zoom. What you are looking at is real.

ELECTRONIC ZOOM = Digital video where the inside section is cropped and enlarged to create the artificial image. Its a picture of what you are looking at as if you were looking at it for real. So of course electronic mag is useless for spell casting cause it's not real. If it did work, well heck, I could feed a trid station into my eyes and cast a spell on the quarterback while watching the Seattle Seahawks game at home. Would be a nice way to bet on the games.

The rules do not have a double standard, they make perfect sense and are logical.

A note on the account of being able to see in Astral space with cyber eyes, I think it is irrelevant wether your eyes are natural or cybernetic. I don't think you need your eyes to see in Astral space, and thus mages can be blind in this world and are able to see in the Astral one... wich would make for interesting role playing, wouldn't it.

Just for the record, I think the rule is completely bogus and allow magicians to take Electronic Mag if they want to pay the extra cash to save the 0.10 Essence -- cybereyes or not. I don't allow it for scopes or anything else, however.

That said, Lilt's last comment is about the only plausible explanation for why it's not allowed. Cybereyes don't digitally modify the input, they simply record what they see then transmit it to the brain. Electronic vision magnification, however, does modify the input before transmitting it.

While it might be a valid argument, I still don't much care for it. But then again, I tend to prefer Optical Magnification anyway (magician or not) just because I think the visual effect is more stunning. I get to describe the iris and spinning around and whirling as I make extreme focal changes.

You guys are missing the point. It doesn't matter weather they are digital or not, it is the fact that ONLY YOUR ORIGINAL IMAGE WILL WORK FOR SPELLS.

Electronic magnification overrides your normal sight. An artificial digital image feed has replaced your own. Your vision has been rebuilt completely and is no longer original.

With optical magnification, you are not using an artificial digital image. You are still using the original image from the eye.

As for thermal and low light, use electronic zoom and your thermal or low light image is rebuilt, no longer your original sight which is why electronic mag is not compatable with magic use.

Now for ultrasound. Ultrasound overlaps your vision. It aids by giving a wire frame model of what you are looking at to help you make out shapes in the dark. You still see that troll standing in front of you in pitch black. It's just you are not aware that part of that black void is actually a troll until you see the wire frame overlapping it. Ultrasound merely points out the un-obvious for you.

Oops. I stand corrected, I did miss that. Me bad. Hopefully they will correct this in a reprint.

I will house rule that electronic mag will not work with spells in all cases.

INTERRESTING NOTE: The book did not say mages can use ectronic mag in meat eyes for spells either.

FYI: I also found a rule that states ultrasound will not allow spell targeting when the target can not be seen using other forms of sight. So US does not help nor does it hurt spell casting.

Lets just email Fanpro and ask them for a canon responce.