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CircuitBoyBlue
QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 5 2008, 09:52 AM) *
I think you need to do some more balanced research. Animal testing has somehow been involved with every major medical achievement in the 20th century. We have innumerable examples of where animal research clearly did work. We developed cures for leprosy and small pox (off the top of my head) almost exclusively through testing vaccines on animals first, and they have been hugely successful. On the flip side, there are cases where medicines were NOT tested on animals, and consequently killed lots and lots of people.

Now if you would like to sign up to inject an HIV vaccine (which if you remember, generally involves injecting either the HIV virus itself or something akin to it into your body, sort of like the polio vaccine which ended up leaving thousands paralyzed even though it was meant to be a cure, not a cause) that has never been tried on another living body, go to it. You're doing a great service for humanity. But I would much rather survive, just speaking for myself.


Plenty of people DO volunteer to have an HIV vaccine injected into them, at least in DC. Unfortunately, I was disqualified when I tried to sign up. But voluntary human testing DOES happen. I'm absolutely fine with it when you're talking about consenting humans. If you were to FORCE people to take part in your medical experiments, that would be a different story. One more similar to what we do to animals for most medical testing (but also cosmetic testing, as well). If the animals signed a consent waiver, I'd say fair game. That's not what happens. But aside from consent issues: if you had HIV, would you rather use treatments that were tested on animals which may or may not have immune systems that are going to react to the treatment in the same way yours will, or would you rather get a treatment that's been proven to work on humans?
nezumi
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 5 2008, 11:59 AM) *
And if penicillin had been tested on animals, it might have never reached clinical trials.


Depends on the animal, which is why we do different types of testing.

QUOTE
I think as our computer models become more sophisticated, and our ability to monitor the body on a cellular level develops into a feasible process, animal testing will only be done on drugs meant for that animal.


Hopefully. We're obviously not there yet.

QUOTE
Plenty of people DO volunteer to have an HIV vaccine injected into them,


Yes, vaccines that have already been tested on animals.

QUOTE
If the animals signed a consent waiver, I'd say fair game.


Obviously they can't, and if they could, they wouldn't. So we need to ask what's more valuable, human life or animal life. Even the leaders of PETA seem to agree human life is more valuable (when it's their lives, anyway).

QUOTE
if you had HIV, would you rather use treatments that were tested on animals which may or may not have immune systems that are going to react to the treatment in the same way yours will, or would you rather get a treatment that's been proven to work on humans?


That's apples and oranges. You're asking about a drug which has completely finished the testing cycle versus one which isn't even halfway through. Of course you're going to want the one which has been finished testing. If you're going to ask that, it's fair to ask do you prefer the one which has completed 1,000 clinical tests in humans with no ill effects, or 1,000 clinical tests in humans and 10,000 in other animals with no ill effects.
Method
Some light reading, anyone? It gets really good at the bottom of page 5... wink.gif
WearzManySkins
Animal Testing or Human Testing, to me it seems the Drug OEM's and the FDA are practicing bad ethics and morals.

Just look that the latest run of issues with various drugs that have been "Tested" and "Approved". So no matter what "Testing" they use, if the OEM wants to market it, the "Tests" will show that is "Safe".

I almost had my liver and kidneys destroyed by "Approved" and "Tested" drug, that is now taken the market, due in part the greater number of those "minor" side effects were not that "minor" and in larger numbers than the "Testing" showed.

So if you feel that Animal Testing or Human Testing insures drug safety,,,keep sticking your head in the sand.

WMS
Method
I'm not going to argue that the OEM or FDA are effective, ethical, perfect etc... They clearly have a lot of room for improvement.

But rare (note that statisticians probably don't use the term minor) drug complications are often over looked because of the way randomized clinical trials are designed. It has to do with the costs involved and sample variation and is a flaw inherent to the the process. Unfortunately RTCs are still the best process we have.

Also, a lot these cataclysmic drug reactions are blown out of proportion by the media, who don't often understand concepts like therapeutic index, relative and attributable risk or the statistical implications of testing for a rare condition.

I'd explain in more detail, but (ironically enough) I have to go take an epidemiology/statistics final.

Sorry to hear about your health problems, tho...
Fortune
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 6 2008, 07:15 AM) *
So if you feel that Animal Testing or Human Testing insures drug safety,,,keep sticking your head in the sand.


And what exactly are you proposing as a replacement? Do you have a better, or at least more effective alternative?
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 5 2008, 02:03 PM) *
Some light reading, anyone? It gets really good at the bottom of page 5...
Are you suggesting consciousness is a not a self-serving criteria by which to adjudicate treatment of animals? Or were you just throwing that out there?

I'd also say page 8-9 was more interesting.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 5 2008, 02:33 PM) *
And what exactly are you proposing as a replacement?

I did not say it needed replacement. Mere stating what it is today.

There have been multiple instances of Drug OEM's deliberately leaving out information/statistics, yes not lying but not telling all the truth/facts.

My change is when such happens Take the top three positions in the OEM Corp Pyramid, and use the Drug forfeiture laws to seize all their "toys" gained by the omission.

@Method
I disagree, and am sorry to hear you are going into medicine. MY stepfather was a FP, I would not touch back then, today even more so.

If you told everyone that using a cell phone you had a 0.1 % chance of the phone blowing up, not many would use them.

I am not saying that RTC are bad, just the information coming from such is being "filtered" to get the Drug OEM's drug sold.

As for the "Rare" side effects, smile.gif May you or a family member never have to find out how not "Rare" they are.

WMS
Method
I was giving a scientific explanation that supports the idea that many animals lack sentience and most (possible all) animals lack sapience (with the notable exception of humans). I don't think this justifies unrestricted or wasteful use of animals by any means, but using the "how do we know a rat isn't sentient just because it can't talk" argument isn't a very good one. We know because they lack the neocortical development required to be aware. A lot of the complexity of behavior we observe in animals and attribute to "awareness" is stereotypical patterned behavior in response to their environment. We project humanness onto animals because one of the things (among others) our brains are really REALLY good at is assigning abstract meaning to observed phenomenon.

And I'm just throwing out there because its interesting.

Why do you find 8-9 more interesting?


Method
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 5 2008, 12:51 PM) *
and am sorry to hear you are going into medicine. MY stepfather was a FP, I would not touch back then, today even more so.

I hope you don't mean because I am an anti-social, criminally-minded Dumpshocker... grinbig.gif

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 5 2008, 12:51 PM) *
If you told everyone that using a cell phone you had a 0.1 % chance of the phone blowing up, not many would use them.

0.1% chance = 1 in 1000. Thats not rare by any means. Thats seeing people's heads blow up on a semi-regular basis. I'd sure as hell ditch my cell phone!! But more to your point, there are diseases associated with human behavior far more common than drug reactions that don't stop the behavior. Think about chlamydia for example... the...um... benefits? out weight the cost. Same for therapeutic drugs.

And more to the point, I was saying the RTCs simply are not capable of detecting rare drug reactions (not just side effects but drug reactions) before a drug is widely marketed. While it is theoretically possible, the cost to do so would be so prohibitively high that no company would continue to develop new drugs.

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 5 2008, 12:51 PM) *
I am not saying that RTC are bad, just the information coming from such is being "filtered" to get the Drug OEM's drug sold.

100 % agreement here, but that has more to do with economics and politics than science (unfortunately).
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 5 2008, 02:51 PM) *
If you told everyone that using a cell phone you had a 0.1 % chance of the phone blowing up, not many would use them.
Of course they would still smoke cigarettes use cellphones.

QUOTE
Why do you find 8-9 more interesting?
Because neuro specializations of fish species is more interesting that defining consciousness (though I found the implication that all animals have emotions, but are simply unaware of them interesting). I would have found a discussion about evolutionary adaptation of the neocortex more interesting, though I suppose it would be beyond the scope of the article.
the_dunner
This is a moderator post. As a reminder of Dumpshock's Terms of Service:
QUOTE (Terms of Service)
4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

A discussion on animal rights and animal testing is pretty firmly in the realm of politics. This discussion has strayed into a realm which is no longer relevant to Shadowrun. Please bring the discussion back on topic or discontinue it. If further moderator posts are necessary, this thread may be closed.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Method @ Mar 5 2008, 03:18 PM) *
I hope you don't mean because I am an anti-social, criminally-minded Dumpshocker... grinbig.gif

Sorry it was meant as pity, my mistake. The changes I have seen in medicine and its practice from yesteryear and today is scary to me at least.

Back on subject.

Would similar Terrorism from groups like Rote Zora and Sie in Shadowrun be viewed similarly?

Green terrorism in SR is nothing to be ignored, does make for some interesting plot lines though.

WMS
Kanada Ten
One area where animal testing is obviously relevant to Shadowrun is the refinement of magical techniques for healing, combat, and all the other spell categories. In addition: experiments to refine paracritter powers and biodrone "stirrups", which would be as barbaric as you can imagine, the testing of various paracritter Immunity powers would include infecting them with the full spectrum of diseases. The holy grail of Sixth World medicine: Immunity to Age, Pathogen and Toxins.
Moon-Hawk
It was mentioned that as our computing power grows and we're better able to simulate complex biological reactions, the need for animal testing would shrink. I completely agree, but it's worth pointing out that the awakening brought forth all these funky meta-genes and astral shadows, and so it's perfectly reasonable to think that in the SR-world they can quite accurately simulate what a normal disease or drug will do to a normal human, but that all the interesting diseases in the 6th world have some sort of awakened component (not that they're "magical" any more than an ork is "magical", just that their existence and/or function requires some of those astral shadows) and thus defies their current level of simulation.

Just as a possible explanation for how we can accept uber-computers and mysterious drug/disease research involving critters/metahumans at the same time.
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