Especially considering that Jazz was designed by Lone Star for the run-of-the-mill non-elite Lone Star cops.

Oh, also, remember... The average LS group has a Combat Mage, possibly an Adept, maybe a Medic and a Tactician, and a few grunts to do the majority of the shooting. They pull up after the Mage tells them who the head mojo is in the group and cack him first, then the rest goes downhill from there.

The number one runner rule also applies to LS:

Geek the mage first!

Yes, but how many other security groups will know a street cop with LS has a permit?

They see a guy with a SLII running towards them. His gun is pulled, and he's shouting frantically. Do the security forces know he's with LS on the street beat? What do they do? Probably open fire.

I doubt the street guys will have SLI or II. Maybe the "official" team might. This is also why their sanctioned gun has a Laser Sight and they most always carry a riot shield in their car. Not only extra armor and partial cover, but it means they might just be able to stay alive long enough to actually geek the guy shooting them.

Again, I refer to the fact that they work as a team, not by themselves. If the street guy comes under fire, what does he do? Calls for backup! If an LS group just lost all but one member, what does that member do? Calls for backup!

And, again, you can bet your hoop they'll be sending in the big boys to blow your hoop up.

That's a very specific scenario you're suggesting and probably not one that occurs very often; certainly not often enough for Lone Star Inc. to structure corporate policy around. Besides, I'd imagine most LS employees have enough sense to not go running at corporate security guards while waving their gun around. Finally, if a corporate security team, while patrolling their employer's grounds, encounters a uniformed Lone Star employee, they (hopefully) have been trained to ask questions first before opening fire.

Also, how exactly could the security guards detect what kind of cyberware the Star was equipped with? "Crikey, that woman wearing the Lone Star uniform is devilishly accurate with her standard-issue Ruger sidearm... she must be smartlinked--get her!"

If all else fails and a gunfight erupts between the Star and some corp's guards, well... it happens occasionally. Then one side sues the hell out of the other and the whole mess gets bumped into the litigous arena.

Your point about LS working as a team is taken: they definitely function as a unit with appropriate back-up and contingency measures for different situations. My only point is that smartlinks are relatively inexpensive and with some sort of employee incentive plan in place, there's no reason why most officers wouldn't have one:

*dials telephone* Hello, Is this dead horse deliveries, id like to order a corpse... Something suitable for flogging... I can find one at dumpshock? Oh, flogged several tmes before you say, well, much appreciated. *click*

That's what's so great about DS! You can beat said dead horse until there is no more of it, then beat it some more!

To steal a gag:

"I think the well's empty"
"Then why pump it?"

"There's no blood in this stone!"

~J

Well, I can't see every LS cop outfitted with a SL (v.1 or v.2) as a mandatory requirement - the cost-benefit ratio to do that just suck no matter how you look at it. Any corp (today or tomorrow) looks at what it's going to get back in terms of its investment from their employees and when you view it that way, it's more believable to say that cyber is an optional thing that is highly encouraged but not compulsory. Employees might be encouraged in various ways to go under the knife to have cyber implants (from bonuses to promotions, etc.) but it makes little sense to insist on it, both in financial terms and in productivity.

I do like Siege's argument that in it can do wonders for PR ... "Our officers are trained to the latest standards of law enforcement and equipped with state of the art cyberware to assist them in any hostile situations they encounter. Lone Star holds the year-on-year record for fewest civilian casualties in the resolution of hostile encounters as a result of our commitment to ensuring our officers continue to receive the finest training and equipment ...." but that PR spiel can be limited to certain departments like SWAT or FRT and still do wonders to impress the public and city councils. It does NOT do enough on the PR front to justify implanting EVERY beat cop with a SL.

Frankly, I find the argument that cops would have implanted SLs instead of using external smart goggles because the goggles might end up in the black market and be used against cops very dumb. If that were a concern, LS cops would not be issued with T-bolts!!! Better not give them hi-end encrypted radios, either, 'cos they might fall into the wrong hands and be used against cops later!!!

I get the general impression that most of the advocates for cops having SLs feel they need to give cops some form of equalizer to get players to take them more seriously. Why is that??? Whether today or in the 2060s of SR, a cop is a cop and even a hardened criminal thinks twice (at least!) before they attack one! In SR, exactly because cops can expect hardened runners out there with whiz-tech toys, cyber and magic, they'll adjust their procedures accordingly.

My players know not to underestimate cops even if they know that they could easily take a cop down on a one-on-one situation but if they attack a cop, they'd better be prepared to be Public Enemy No. 1 in the cops' books and priority. In my games, the "ordinary" cop on the street can still deal a healthy dose of coffee (of the wake-up-and-smell-it variety) to PCs - eg. foot patrols don't go out alone, they ALWAYS have a partner. Cops act smart because they are well-trained, especially Lone Star officers - they will take cover, retreat if necessary, try to contain you while they call for back-up, which will arrive in force even if it's just one PC popping off a few rounds from his pistol! You'd better believe SWAT is going to be rolling out if it's more than one PC discharging anything bigger than a pistol!!!

My run-of-the-mill LS street cop has an average Pistols rating of 3-4 with perhaps a specialisation in the T-bolt and both of them will use combat pool (1-2 additional dice if not more, up to 4 usually for the average shmoe) - rolling 6-7 dice with a T-bolt (base damage of 12S) can potentially kill a PC. Depending on the tactical situation, both cops would engage a single perp to take him down where possible/necessary. With just plain laser sights on their T-bolts, I have never needed street cops loaded down with cyber to get my players to respect them.

Even if the players kill the patrol cops, they know the call will have gone out over the commnet unless they had surprise on the patrol and managed to geek both the cops immediately (difficult since my cops aren't dumb enough to stand together or make themselves easy targets) and there'll be an intense hunt for the perps who committed the homicdes. If they get away, they'll have to worry about the investigation that follows - if they killed the cops anywhere in a built-up urban area, they can be pretty sure that their images were captured on some camera and the team's decker would probably not be in time to delete the date from the cops' host before the pictures got circulated to every cop, who'd then circulate it to their informants, who'd then circulate it ... you get the idea.

My point is you don't have to dress up a bog-standard cop to make him a threat to the players.

Well you could use the trick many GM's have used, demotions!

Yes, just like in Leathal Weapon 3 when the 2 badass detectives were demoted to patrolman for doing something stupid, If your pc's make a habit of trying to blow LS coppers up simply stick Max the Combat Mage and Barry the Gunbunny SWAT team members in their way, That should make them a bit wary from now on.

or if your not feeling that mean simply have one of them be a mage, and the other holding a Defiance T250 having just gone to question a moderately high risk subject over something, oh and make the guy reasonably well versed in the shotgun.

I so, SO prefer the original mechanics of SW's RPG to the d20 utter s**t that is being forced down our throats now =(.

Dare I ask?

West End Games -- the company that originally created the Star Wars RPG used what is affectionately referred to as the "d6" system.

The Star Wars license has been passed on to WotC and their damnable d20 system -- which embodies everything I dislike and despise about level-based class systems.

-Siege

I see. I had no clue SW was anything but WotC, but, then again, I'm also fairly new to the pen and paper scene.

True dat!
Of course, as much as we'll all swear up and down that d20 sucks, I bet most of us play at least one d20 game, in addition to SR. I do.
Even though SR's system is infinitely better. hehe
Back so LS. I would say that SL would not be required. Several cop templates, laser sights on the thunderbolts, etc makes me think they wouldn't require it. I would expect a very strong incentive program. Not to mention the testimonials from their friends on the force who DO have the ware. I would think that within the first couple years, many of them would take advantage of the incentive program. I generally assume that around 2/3 have some kind of SL system. If they don't, it's either because they're very new, they're some kind of purist and don't want any cyberware they don't have to have, or they're a veteran and such a fraggin' good shot that they can still outshoot their buddies w/ smartlinks.
As for Jazz, it was developed by LS, for LS. However, it is addictive and destructive, and so I would imagine that official policy forbids it's use. I would also think that said policy is not enforced, and that many cops carry a dose, just in case.

I can say that from modern mentality that may not apply to SR there would be a number of lawsuits if LS didn't make SL's manditory. There are people who will sue if a stray bullet hits a relative, on the grounds that the bullet statistically would not have missed had "All reasobable precaution been taken". There have been lawsuits of this nature, and they win a freightening percentage of the time. One decision in the favor of a victim can pay for a thousand smartlinks, without exaggeration.

I'm still not saying that all cops would have one, but that cop may face severe liability without it. I honestly believe that the vast majority of police officers would have that ware installed, especially if it was partially financed or subsidized by the star.

[edit]
And I play NO d20 games. I vote with my wallet. Anyone that doesn't like a system yet pays that company for their products directly or indirectly is part of the damn problem. You keep that *^%*&^%* systemn running.
[/edit]

I do play a d20 game now and again -- but I don't buy the product for it.

Of course, since my GM went off the deep end, it hasn't been an issue lately.

-Siege

From the LoneStar sourcebook:

I suppose it depends on how psychotic the SR gangs happen to be -- if you use the gangs from Cyberpunk, all bets are off.

The listed gangs from SR seem to be a bit tamer, IMHO.

-Siege

Here's some. A Pocket Secretary with a big red X on it gave it to me.

~J

[checks my package] Yep I'm a guy! Bastages!

Dammit, I'd already changed my mental picture of you. Ah well. Maybe it'll wear off in a couple of years.

~J

Hrrrrkkklllding gah blast!!! And all this time, I had an image of a rawkin' kewl chick with the Vegas PD??!! Oh, the pain, the pain!!

He could always get an operation. They could change his sex and install a Smartlink.

~J

Hell, yeah! And if you were to visit at the same time, they could implant a smartass, too!!!

there are way too many places you could go with that joke. ...or with that 'ware, for that matter (would a called shot negate your condom?)

most beat cops with the intention of staying in and/or going higher would probably opt for surgery, especially if there were a program in place that made it cheaper to do so--especially since they'd walk out of the clinic with a license for their 'ware.

...that's a really disturbing smiley to use at that particular juncture, fortune.

Would it be better if he'd used a different one?

Much like finding a live Yak in my living room, I don't know how this conversation got here but I want it to go away