So, that brings the tally of things that need to be fixed/added by Unwired:

-Hacking large systems
-Agent/Doctor Smith
-Programming rules that don't suck
-Electronic Warfare
-Sensors
-Technomancers
-Script Kiddies (Hackers w/ Logic of 1 being god in the Matrix, but suddenly losing the ability to use computers when they leave)
-Microscopic Vision and other cybereye/ear mods being available as non-ware equipment
-Retransmission units that *aren't* mobile
-(Optional) Programs/hardware above rating 6

A tall order, I'd say. Anything I missed?

AFAIK, Sensors and Cyberware won't be addressed in Unwired, although Riggers will be getting some love in the form of new programs and expanded rules for rigging building security systems. I also don't think Electronic Warfare will see much in the way of expansion, aside from expanded rules on encryption, although there hasn't been anything that specific said they won't. Technomancers are supposedly receiving some serious attention, specifically Streams, the Technomantic equivalent of Totems for Shamans, among other things.

It's been confirmed that Agent Smith will have his final encounter with Neo and die. It's also slated to have rules for hacking into cyberware, although Catalyst mentioned that implant hacking will still be primarily based on player creativity. Haven't heard anything about any further rules on retrans units, although it's certainly possible. Programming is in, as is patching, which I hope will be the rule that brings Logic back into necessity for the team Decker. Catalyst also mentioned that they're going to add multiple types of classification for Nodes, which sounds intriguing..

Well of course:

- Give hackers some more ways to progress after character creation!

Apart from that, I'd diversify the Technomancer point a bit.

- Some more interesting stuff for TMs to pick up at Submersion.
- Rules to make a TM more worthwhile as a member of a shadowrunner team.
- Give some more background on where TMs come from. I have no problem with the idea of TMs. Quite the opposite, I even like it but the current vague "it's magic but not magic" explanation just doesn't cut it. With that said, I think that topic has already been discussed to death though.

Some Submersions that don't suck would certainly be nice. Dissonance rules would also be wiz.

i wouldn't say that technomancers need to be fixed, per se.

there's a crudload of awesome toys that could be given to them to make them a million times cooler, but they don't really need to be fixed as such. as long as you understand that they're intended as purely matrix specialists, and that they must be played completely different from hackers, you're fine.

personally, i'm looking to see the potentials behind BTL/simsense explored, but that's just me

I hope not only for useful but also more creative ideas for submersion. Each metamagic has some unique flavor attached to it. Submersion right now is simply gaining +1 on this'n'that, which strikes me as rather uninspired.

Concerning their playability, I didn't really comment on general hacking ability but rather on the fact that I can mix most character "concepts" into a character with at least two roles which makes the character more well-rounded and the game way more fun than being a one-trick pony. When creating a TM I have to sink everything into actually getting decent at one thing.

More info on Technomancers plz! Otherwise it seems that u guys more or less already have covered the things that need more focus in Unwired.

I want Sixth World Cybersex.

I think the primary problem lies with their specialization. Technomancers are weaker then Hackers because they're usually a far more specialized and BP-expensive character then an equivlent Hacker would be, and yet are weaker in terms of stamina hacking and generally better as Riggers. The best thing they have going for them is Sprites, and I think that's a problem.

There needs to be some reason not to disable all your wireless, buy skinlinks and use your commlink as a mobile phone.

Um, because if you do it then all the corps will remember that they can use physical wires for their security systems--like they do today--and prevent the hacker's uber l33t wireless skillz from being any use?

Honestly, with corps widebanding all their info into space like they apparently do on 2070 it's like they *want* to be hacked.

This is not a rules set per se - but PLEASE give some good examples of the mechanics in action. The BBB has tons of examples of play EXCEPT in the newest, most non-intuitive aspect of the rules - not one example of play in the matrix section.

A few examples of mechanics in action might have saved reams of vociferous, unanswerable debate on these boards.

Also, especially for the non-computer oriented among us (yes, some gamers are actually NOT technophiles), a layman's discussion of matrix topography, and how to judge where personas and so forth are - in the target node? in their own node but affecting the target node? if so, who or what is in their own node? that kind of nuts and bolts stuff is more in need of clarification than the more high-falootin' questions.

And on that note - basic but more thorough explanations of how the 2070 mesh network idea works - I see so so so many interpretations - are we really jumping signals from signal 1 commlinks through every toaster and vacuum cleaner in the hood all the way to the Aztechnology pyramid? Are there that many nodes out there that are totally unprotected and happy to be used as a repeater?

Basics basics basics - all the rules in the world will never come up with enough stuff to cover all the contingencies that players will come up with and want to try - but a thorough discussion of the underlying concepts - much like the early Grimoires provided on magical theory and astral space - will give GMs the tools they need to make their own rulings.

Wait WHAT?! I've been lamenting about matrix topography since I first read through the rules and kept to myself mostly because I thought: They're made for people who only have Hollywood-movie hacking knowledge. They only make you brain hurt, because you care too much about how it's really supposed to be.

While the above points regarding technomancers are valid, it's worth singling out for comment a few points.

1. The concept that technomancers cannot multitask under the RAW is valid. The using the same rules for buying complex forms as spells and capping rating at resonance seems to reduce the load substantially. My current technomancer character can shot fairly well and is good enough at social type stuff to serve as the team's face, but his dice pools in these actions are by no means astounding while his hacking isn't great by optimised standards (pre-thread pools of 12-14 dice). Like most magical characters (indeed, any character always wants more BP), technomancers are still short on points, but the problem comes from technomancer abilities rather more limited focus. It would be entirely resonable IMO to add a tweak changing CFs to 3BP (5 Karma) per in fluff terms, as complex formulae etc are going to be reasonably well available post-emergence. However as always YMMV.

2. Technos are meant to be starting to pick up fat paychecks in 2071. Make me believe it in the rules, because at present you might as well use anyone with decent logic and software to program (as far as I remember, books not on hand), although I will admit that sprites are pretty damn useful for security and cold war mentality will have its effects as corps attempt to stockpile more of any given resource than their opponents, but overall they don't seem overly worthwhile to corps, particularly when you can afford enough agents to perform any given task, given agents current powerlevel. Just something other than threading to make them feel unique, because generally speaking they don't.

3. Good Echoes. 'Nuff said

4. Sixth World Cybersex

On the one hand, you're right, but on the other hand, replace "widebanding all their info into space" with "being online 24/7" (and "2070" with "2000") and I'm sure people were saying that eight years ago. Also I don't think security can reasonably be maintained the way we'd like to do it if we were in charge. I'm sure that keycards can be hacked now, for example, but lots of "secure" places use keycard access. Maybe they try to not make it the only security system, but with finite resources for security, the other systems might not be so great.

... involving dikoted ally spirits (who might or might not wield Sliverguns).

No dikote, sorry.

Yeah, but in my game shadowrunners only break into stuff that actually needs to be secure.

The OH&S team for the widget factory may, or may not have a secure setup (hell the widget factory probably isn't very secure), but thats not where my guys go, and I don;t give a toss about it.

My guys go get the multi million nuyen jewelled amulet of plot device. the Top Secret Biowarfare Program Research Plot device, bust into the yakuza den to wax the bosses daughter, track down the guy that tried to wax the Triad boss' daughter, or go to a warzone in china to recover artifacts reputed to be from the plateau of leng from the tomb of a vampire, and those things are totally going to have a properly secure setup, just like they would in real life. Security does have precedence in those situations! And there needs to be a reason for these extremely security concious people to bust out the wifi

(also, it would be nice if a hacker had something to *do* in the tomb of a vampire when indiana jones-ing? I mostly keep him occupied with making sure the soldiers with tanks and helicopters and guns don't notice they are here, but otherwise nada. Though I know that is an edge case:)

What I'm curious to see:

* If they're going for a virtual reality/metaphor based Matrix-system or a simple computer world
* If we'll have an open (this program does that kind of things) or closed (You can do only action A, B and C with this program) ruleset.

I wouldn't mind seeing an "official" optional ruleset or stance to alleviate "Stupid Hacker Syndrome" (IE, mental attributes having no bearing in the skill + program equation).

If they stick some form of optional variant in there to that effect, then i'll be happy.

Oh yeah...and 6th world cybersex of course...

Stuff that needs fixing:

- Sensors
- SOME sort of possible progression beyond raing 6 programs and 'links, so that hackers actually have SOMETHING to look forward to after chargen
- Sensors
- Explain what the hell Technomancers are, tie them into the world. Maybe they'll feel less like a "K3WL IZ T3H NEO" than they do now then. And don't boost them more, they're enough of a pain in the ass as is.
- Explain why, as Deus' evils apparently are at least partially known, everyone justa ccepts AIs as nice people.
- Sensors
- Dirt on Horizon, so they don't seem like Care Bears, inc. any more. Please. As of now, that corp's just ridiculous.
- SOME rigger-specific programs that give them some sort of edge over TM vehiclemongers
- ERRATA OUT HACKER ADEPTS. Just kill them off. There were several good reasons adepts never strayed into the Matrix in SR3.

A chapter on matrix culture, possibly including Cybersex (like in target: Matrix) would also be nice.

And, of course: Sensors. Though that's not going to happen, as said above, that doesn't change anything about the nescessity.

Details, Details, Details.

The vagueness works only for those with a good background in computers. Or those who heap alot of (not necessarily) common sense on top of the rules. When I say common sense, I mean anything that seems to be game breaking or outside of developer intentions should be circumvented (which goes back to having a background in computers in order to suspend disbelief.)

These need either some detailed explanations, or some examples of all the things people have brought up.

How is threading supposed to bring a technomancer to hacker level, let alone make him the matrix terror he is supposed to be.
Why was a skill test even assigned to a non-action (non-actions take no time, so why bother with skill tests when you can roll indefinately)?

How can computer techs get by with knowledge of computers, and a program and a 2nd grader's logic.
Why is a 15,000 (+programs) pilot/agent able to replace any hacker or rigger?
What makes Sprites better than said pilots/agents (since I need a rating 9 machine sprite just for it to drive, shoot, and perceive)?

What is really pulling hackers (let alone the 1 trick technomancer) out of the basements and into the run? (Its easier than ever to connect with the wireless matrix, so why leave my basement?)


Things I don't want to see in this book:
Hundreds of "Optional Rules", I'd rather they provide us with ways the current system works, not going back and rehashing everything and saying "Ignore the BBB, these are what is really supposed to happen"
Any form of making pilots/agents stronger (They need to explain what doesn't work with these, not add any more to them)
More rules without examples or enough detail for us to know how they work (Please don't raise more debates on how the new Agent Jones is even more powerful than the recently crushed Agent Smith)
Fluff Handwavium, "In 2072 there was a large surge in agent run attacks on nodes throughout the matrix, now corporations have implemented strategic tactics to crush such 'Agent Smith' attacks before they can escalate to any form of danger."


I'm a big supporter of the current matrix, but this is because I do have a computer background and can apply such knowledge to make the matrix as written work. Also with the help of Knasser's examples of the matrix, it looks fairly clean. But as a player of a Technomancer many of the shortcomings are quite obvious and I don't like to house rule any more than is necessary to explain something, I don't house rule to override the rules, but to work within the rules.

I for one, don't need to know what Technomancer's are. Just how they work.

For an "affliction" thats only been around for 5 years, and only surfaced now in 2070. I see it as thouroughly breaking the mystique to turn around and outright say "Technomancers are the spawn of Deus", or "Technomancers are demi-sprites, with Sprites being the People who were actually trapped in the Matrix in 2065".

I look for these in some future campaign or missions supplement. I wish the BBB has explained more of the Technomancer position, and didn't leave so much for Emergence. But with Emergence now, I don't think Unwired should once again break the continuity.

I feel the same way I hate having to keep a "pile" of house rules for any game. With SR4 I've found that it really does'nt need much in the way of that just simply adding some clarity to RAW. I have great hopes for Unwired, new matrix system works for me and with some polishing as I expect from unwired it should live up to its potential.
That being said what do I want most from Unwired well the first dev chat got me chomping at the bit for it. So now I just want buy it

Currently the technomancer's IWIN™ button seems to be horribly abusing high-level sprites, while he significantly lacks on his own. I'd rather see a nerf to that in favor of gaining more strength otherwise. Being reliant on compiling and registering force 12 sprites until you wake up in hospital from fading damage is not, what I'd consider intended gameplay.

They don't even need to abuse Sprites to get huge dice pools.
Our Technomancer threads Exploit to 10 and uses a registered Sprite to increase his Stealth to 10. This means he can hack even secure nodes on-the-fly for admin rights without being spotted.

Once he gets in he threads his Attack to 10 which is autokill for most IC.

So far this hasn't been a problem as the good paydata is hardly accessible through the Matrix, so he has to physically be onsite to get it.
But most datasteals are easy once the infiltration succeeds.

I run a TM and he never has a sprite higher than 6, and does quite nicely. He cannot do everything, but can certainly break into nodes, find the pay data, etc. pretty well. Threading lets you do a lot with what you have, and certainly makes the difference. Sprites are nice, don't get me wrong, but I don't see the point in compiling sprites that huge in most cases.

Given the richness of options with Initiation, it would be nice if there were some more options with Submergence. There are only a few options to choose from that really matter. Bringing in the concepts of resonance pools and dissonance areas would be the equivalent of aspected background and would be fun to play with.

I do agree that most of the sprites seem incomplete. I think they should be a bit more specialized (pilot sprites for running drones for instance, with other machine sprites for more general systems) and thus better at their tasks. It would be nice if a sprite did not have to be rating 9 to stand any chance or really running a drone.

Since RAW basically gives a hand-wave over the wireless matrix as a giant mesh-net, it might be interesting to add some flavor for things such as "nothing in your immediate range is very powerful, and there are a lot of people using the matrix here, so you get -2 dice for lag if you are trying to hit a node on the other side of town". Congestion on the local networks are likely, since I don't see the corporate tendency to over-subscribe their equipment going away any time soon, and it is not part of general human nature to buy something much more powerful than what you need just to have spare bandwidth to allow other folks to use for free Maybe not to the level of the older matrix systems, but could be interesting situational modifiers to dice pools.

I also agree that it seems a shame that a hacker is pretty much fully formed at char-gen, and the rest of the time is spend developing skills in other areas. There is just not that much for them to shoot for that is in their characters main "theme". That goes doubly for the fact that stats do not figure into anything on the net, and that seems wrong. It would be nice if someone can have hacker goals for character development (things to spend the karma on).

Take that for what its worth. I have a declared bias towards TMs, but I do not find them as broken as so many folks see them to be. Not saying I am right and they are wrong, but we must have different play styles.

Now that is my style of play

If we have the time, my TM just threads the Stealth and probes... it is much less likely someone is going to get by a Stealth of 12 if they only get one shot at the roll.

Hm, I guess something else to add to Unwired:

-Clear up the confusion over how Riggers work

I think quite a few of you are going to be happy. Riggers are getting some new programs and capabilities, and I think Technomancers are getting a good deal of attention, too.

Haven't they had that since SR1?

And I'm supposed to be satisfied with that? I want more Sixth World Cybersex!

The original list on this thread does not yet include:

- Dropout: currently you don't have to open yourself to any meaningful hacking at all. You can basically just decide to not get hacked. AR hacking isn't any worse than VR hacking so there's no real reason to allow any incoming signals access to you or anything you care about.

- Hackastack: related to Agent Smith, but slightly different. "You" can get multiple lives in the Matrix by running a separate persona on multiple commlinks simultaneously. Switch between them when you take Matrix damage or you need a clean IP Address or whatever.

-Frank

Why exactly would having some protection against hacking need fixing?

the problem is not that it is 'some protection' it is 'total protection' and the problem is not when the players do it (who cares) its just that it makes no sense for people manning highly secure installations to really do the wireless thing, rather than running some cables. If you want the hacker to hack the cameras, gun turrets, electric fences, doors, cars and whatever the hell else, you need to answer that question.

Edit: It protects against everything except having your tactical radio jammed, but that is a part of the rules that doesn't obviously work, and you don't need hackers either (ECCM autosoft ftw! woo!)

Common sense has always been the SR4 wifi bonanza's worst enemy.

That is what frank was getting at. We want the wifi bonaza to make sense, so unwired needs to provide a compelling reason to be unwired (like, you know, the name)

Point taken.

RIGHT! I knew I was forgetting a few important exploit-y things. Thanks Frank!

Oh, also:

- Nesting Dolls - the limits on subscription are pretty close to meaningless when one of the things on your subscription list can be a Commlink with its own subscription list.

-Frank

Slaving in general would need definite rules and explanations.

Also, above-level-6 computers would be a nice idea (I read somewhere that was planned), and even more if there were portable versions. That would cost a heap, but actually give mundane hackers soemthing to work for - decks. Besides, with the computing power in earring-sized level 6 thru commlinks, I have a hard time imagining level 7 to 10 supercomputers as larger than keyboard sized.

Re-introducing Cyberdecks in SR4 would be awesome!

Yes, wouldn't it? And there should be a Fuchi Nostalgia collection, too ...

Here's something I want in Unwired...

When?

Why would that be in Unwired? I mean, if you're reading it, you probably already know.

They're basically matrix adepts, and by adepts I'm using the Earthdawn definition of the word and not the Shadowrun one.

It's also interesting to note that they've learned to consciencly thread which is something other adepts have tapped into but haven't really understood the implications of.

Uhm ... no. That would be the hacker adept, because that's how the ED adept has been translated into SR. Remember, they do NOT use magic.


Mind to explain that further, please? Because I don't really see what you're getting at.

By Earthdawn definitions Mages are also adepts. An adept in ED is someone who uses pattern magic. Just because TMs don't use magic as mages and more typical awakened define it doesn't mean they don't tap into it.

To break it down, TMs manipulate the pattern of the matrix in a similar way as mages manipulate the pattern of astral space. They both manipulate patterns, they just manipulate different patterns.




Threading, the TM ability bears a strong resemblance not just in name but also in function to ED threading practiced by ED adepts. ED adepts use threads to tie their own pattern to items (similar to how bonding works), to tie threads to a groups pattern (magical groups do something similar), and to even alter their own abilities (which is were the TMs come in).

There's more examples of why TMs are in fact adepts. Both mages and TMs leave signatures on the patterns they manipulate. Both suffer drain from manipulating patterns. Both 'lose touch' with the pattern they alter from essence loss. Both require extra care from doctors less their touch be disrupted.

The only argument I can really see for saying that TMs aren't a new form of awakened is the fact that mages can't assense them as such... but considering the patterns they manipulate are entirely separate from each other why should a TM leave any sort of special imprint on the pattern of astral space?

Keep in mind that in every instance of using the word adept I'm following the ED definition and not the SR one.

*edit* I wanted to add that this isn't canon and it's not written anywhere but the correlations are pretty plane for anyone that wants to read between the lines.

so, is there some equivalent of initiation for technos? if not, maybe there should be.

There is. It's called Submersion, but frankly the metamagics it grants suck horribly compared to what you get as mages for the same karma.