I know the rules say how much weight a runner can carry but how much do you carry. I was thinking about bulk.

Look at a pic of someone in WW2 , a german with an MP40 or A GI with a Thompson and they can carry maybe 4 extra clips, but they make a BIG bulky packet on their belt. Westerns show bullets in loops around the belt. Shot gun shells can similarly be threaded into a belt loop but this are pretty obvious.

Personally in RL and if you see Bruce Willis in Die Hard with a hand gun a clip can usually carry 2 more clips on the holster or a belt pouch. That means mabe 30 rounds in RL or 45 on a Predator/Manhunter. Do you load that way or jamb clips in your pcokets or what?

I spent too much running around in the military, so I tend to have more ammo.

For a pistol, at least I spare mag, typically two on a belt carrier. If I'm carrying a long arm I'm carrying more ammo. At least two full mags in a pocket, typically 4 plus some goodies in a man purse. Unless we are loaded out, then >8 mags plus grenades on the nylon, frame charges plus more demo and ammo in the pack, plus a pistol and two spare mags.

That being said, reloading in SR games is unusual.

For not-obvious work, my average character (if I have such a thing) carries a handgun and either one or two spare mags, depending on if they've also got a knife or other back-up weapon.

For a run-run, where we're all pretty sure the shit's hitting the fan? I'm a big dummy who's worried about nonsense like "realistic combat loads," so I fall back to a good 6-8 spare magazines for my rifle/submachinegun...despite only ever having to reload because a magazine was empty -- ever, in all my time playing Shadowrun, and almost always Adepts or Sammies -- one time (and even that was just because I used suppressive fire several actions in a row).

Yeah, honestly, I've made pistol wielding non-combatant characters that only own something like 50-60 rounds of ammunition total to begin with. Shadowrun simply doesn't have a terribly high rate of fire. Not that I'm complaining-- chewing through big bricks of ammo tends to get fussy and it's not something I enjoy dealing with too often. I carry multiple clips of ammo on my characters, but really only to take advantage of the various ammo types.

On person, usually some three to five mags primary weapon (one loaded, the rest reserve, usually a mix of gel and live - often Ex-Explosive or anti-armour, rather than slug), and two for the secondary (one loaded, one reserve; one gel, one live). Of the primary's reserve two worn in a combat vest in slings, usually, with the secondary's mag in a belt pouch, the rest in a backpack's side bags or a carrier bag, as deemed appropriate for where the run goes down. Grenades, if present (anything other than flash or FlashPak would be highly unusual for my main character) on the vest, too.

Off the job, it's usually a taser gun (Pulsar) with reserve arrows in a jacket pocket or purse (if appropriate). Tasers are pretty effective weapons in SR3, and perfectly legal on top of that.

Other than that, mission-specific weapons and, if playing a relevant character, disposable fetishes on belts or in pockets and vehicle weapons ammuntion in the vehicle as deemed appropriate.

In my SR games, reloading happens quite often, especially if going in somewhere the hard way where a number of enemies are holed up (and you use burst fire weapons).

Casual Meetings? Pistols 3 Mags, SMGs 3 Mags
Unknown Meetings Pistols 5 Mags, SMGs 5 Mags, ARs 8 Mags, Grenades 2 Smoke, 2 Flash Bang, 2 Flash Pak
Combat Run Pistols 6 Mags, SMGs 6 Mags, AR 10 Mags, Grenades 2 Smoke, 2 Flash Bang, 2 Flash Pak, 4 HE

"Better to have too much ammunition than too little ammunition."5th Marine Sargent at Khe Sanh, later in the USN, on board one of my ships.

WMS

on a RUN?
i'll mention now once again, that i am usually playing the troll cyber/bio tank with included tank like fire-power both on distance and in close combat, so . .
1 Savalette loaded with Gel-Rounds with Silencer and 5 spare-clips with different kinds of ammo(exex, flechette, gel)(concealable holster under left shoulder)
1 loaded Ares Viper sliver gun with under barrell weight and 2 spare clips,(concealable Holster under right shoulder)
1 loaded Defiance Super-Shock with 4 more taser darts(concealable holster/slide on left fore-arm)
1 Dart-Pistol loaded with Gamma-Scopolamine and 2 spare clips with differend kinds of poison filled darts(concealable holster/slide on right forearm)
if i really expect trouble
1 loaded Franchi Spas-22 with Gel-Rounds loaded in the beginning and 10 slugs and 10 flechette rounds(strapped to the back in a Sling)
1 Ruger Super Warhawk loaded with Gel-Rounds and 2x6-bullet quickloaders with ex-ex bullets(concealable holster on the lower back)
1 loaded Assault-Rifle or LMG with different kinds of Ammo(strapped to the back in a sling)
Add to that some grenades, mostly one each of the usual kinds, then come the close combat-weapons including shock-glove(left hand) and hardliner glove(right hand), an telescoping staff(in the back of my long coat), an extendable baton(strapped to one leg), a whip(used as a belt)[maybe mono-whip NOT USED AS A BELT some time] and an assortment of knives that can either be used in hand to hand or be thrown(all over the body)
i have not yet had to reload one of those weapons . . i mostly just switch to other weapon when one happens to be empty *g*

but then again, i am the more or less typical combat munchkin who tries to keep the sneaky adept, the decker and the high charisma bitch alive by dealing/taking gross ammounts of damage once somebody fucked up and i don't have to keep silent anymore ^^

For each gun:

One clip loaded, two clips spare. Ammo depends on what we are up too. Plus a Stun Baton/Knife. Stun Baton on low Str chars

Being the Decker I only keep about one reload for my main weapon, which is bad because it's an ultra heavy pistol/revolver with only three shots. When my character gets in a fight he relies on things like smoke grenades, flash packs, distance, and strategy. However, his main roles are the medic/decker/face so if he actually has to fight generally something went wrong.


(On a side note, as a little non-cannon experiment we had him fight one of our pure fighters. He won simply because of superior strategy. People overlook just how important thinking is sometimes in a run, I see that happen with a lot of fighters.)

Pistol:
1 clip loaded, two spare clips, either as counterweight in a shoulder holster or on a belt.

Rifle:
1 clip loaded (if possible with 2 more clipped to the clip), and 3 to 6 spare clips in 2 ammo pouches.
(Like we carried ammo in the army)

Usually my characters OWN thousands of rounds of ammo and many many guns.

However, what I bring on a run is typically the 'main gun', and because I love John Woo with all my fanboy doe-eyed devotions, that's sometimes 'two pistols'... well, often. And generally something 'small' as a backup... no more.

And maybe 100-200 rounds of ammo. Depending on the 'gun' and the Run.

If I need more I try to set up a 'forward logistics base' (the team's car works good) and load up extra guns and ammo there, close enough to get to if things head south, but ya ain't trying to carry a damn arsenal around.

Oh, and if I got 'em, I usually pocket a couple of grenades. Nothing says 'bye bye emergency' like tossing a frag down the hall...

Heh.

I haven't played SR since I joined the Army, which now makes me think about how much I would put on a character.

Sidearm: 4 mags + 1 loaded
Primary weapon: 6 - 8 mags + 1 loaded.

Anything else is mission-specific:
Heavy firepower: 203/M-79 duty: 6 shells + 6 special loads
Demolitions: C-4 / C - 12: 4 - 8 kilos
Sniper: 4 mags + 1 loaded

I was always the gear rat of the crew, so I packed the medical supplies, backup toolkit, commo, 50 meters of rope and various stuff. The secondary supplies were always humped in a quick-release drop bag.

If I need to just put rounds into an area, I could usually count on finding rifles lying around after the first two or three rounds of combat.

-Siege

I used to work in law enforcement, and packed a glock (16 rounds in it) and two extra clips (another 30 for a total of 46).

This fit on my duty belt pretty easily so I picture a shadowrunner as having maybe 4 extra pistol clips, and more for smgs and bulletburners...

Well, depends on character, but current mad scientist creation:

Predator(with a clip each of regular, gel, and APDS. Gel is loaded first usually; the AP comes out if things get real nasty or heavy armor is involved). Silenced and in a concealable holster.
Shotgun or SMG(shotgun ill take a box of fletchette for some filling the room action if needed, and some loads already in there of something. SMG a clip each also of regular, gel, and AP. Again, gel is loaded first typically.) Sound supresser.
Flash-bang or two. He lacks thrown weapons atm but his 8 agility is enough for him to default to roll one down the hall usually.
His sword in his back and survival knife on his boot
His four limbs, a good Strength rating, steel-reinforced boots and bone lacing



Besides other important odds and ends(commlink, subvocal mic, armor jacket, whatever else is needed), that's about it. Now, keep in mind this is for a ''we really have to keep this quiet and there isn't much force'', then again, guns aren't my guy's main things anyway, so he keeps enough should his sword or unarmed combat not be enough(and it usually is.)

Now, tough run? Tack on and extra clip of each type for the pistol, an extra clip of each type for the SMG or Shotgun and probably his Ruger Super Warhawk(loaded and with a couple of other loads with it.) In an underarm holster. A couple of flash-bangs in the pocket as well.

Look closer. Minimum loadout was frequently six mags on a harness, frequently more in other pockets plus whatever reserve in the ruck. 20 round Thompson mags do not last particularly long.

Of course, Shadowrun loadouts are another matter. I'm pretty obsessive about realistic combat loads, but, like Critias, can't say it's ever mattered. That's SR for you.

I usually load my characters with 210 rounds of ammunition for their primary firearm as I understand that's just a standard practice. However in my experience that's always been signifcantly more than what other players give to their characters to take on a mission.

You are never going to come out the other side of a gunfight saying to yourself, "I brought too many bullets."

With my real life concealed carry permit, I routinely carry 29 rounds of .45 ACP.

In SR, where the rules are generous concerning how easily gear is carried, there's no reason not to carry lots and lots.

I refer you to the Auxilia Mk. III, ARS 121. A tracked drone, vehicle armor 12, with nothing but room for ammunition onboard. Program it to back slowly toward the enemy while you crouch behind it, laying down covering fire and reloading from its bottomless cargo bin.

my mage has been carrying a Predator III around for quite awhile and hasn't fire a shot. hes still carrying the 2 clips of SnS and 2 clips APDS he picked up at chargen. the only time he fired a weapon ,it was an assault rifle he used to bring down a WASP. (of course the troll with the LMG had already punched quite a few holes in it to start with)

The last time I ran my orK sammie he was carrying 50 rnds for the CMDT, 3 clips each for the 2 Predators, 4 flash bang grenades, 4 H-E grenades, 4 thermal smoke, 3 clips for the Ingram smart gun, 3 combat knives, 2 boot knives.

I usually try to gauge just what may be needed and then add an extra clip or two of the real nasty stuff, cause if your dipping into your back up ammo, then the feces has obviously hit the rotary oscillator.

usualy 4 extra clips, and 4-6 grenades. for guns with low rates of fire or those w/o clip loaders then ~20 extra rounds.

It's been a LONG time since I've had a character that carried more than 1 spare clip. I eventually just realized that shadowrunners aren't the military. If we were going into a typical combat operation, sure, I'd carry more ammo. But I'd also want the proper training, a squad, etc. On most runs, it seems having a lot of ammo is just a temptation to stick around in a fight longer than you should, when you ought to be running away before the Star shows up.

I think the mechanics have something to do with the willingness of runners to fire rounds - the only time I found myself really burning through ammo was when my GM at the time experimented with "suppressive fire" rules.

Otherwise, engagements tend to be dry affairs with specific numbers and dice and (at the time) TNs.

-Siege

Standard practice for whom? SWAT and similar police units move fast and light. On the other hand, standard infantry loadout is 8-12 mags. If you're a small unit with no support of any kind, you should do whatever you can to avoid a standup fight, but you should still probably be carrying enough ammunition for a prolonged fight if you have no alternative unless there's a mission specific purpose that requires very light loadouts.


Man, that is excessive. Pretty much any real life situation where you need 29 rounds is a real life situation where you need a whole lot more than 29 rounds.

Actually, that's one mag loaded + 1 round in the chamber and three magazines stowed (assuming 7 round capacity).

Off the top of my head, that's only one mag more than most officers I've seen carry.

Of course, I don't routinely carry personal weapons, so your mileage may vary.

-Siege

My general feeling is that if you live in a developed nation, the odds of truly needing more than one mag in any possible self defense scenario is extremely low. An extra mag for whatever is not an unreasonable precaution; but if you need three mags, you need more than three mags.

Then again, I've been in some very, very dangerous places and never been armed in my life, so.

From most of the CHL permit holders that I know that is about average. I know of several that have "on hand" more than one weapon when traveling. By traveling I mean going to and from work place ie normal day to day travel.

Again better to have too many bullets than too few.

WMS

Arethusa look at Sieges list above, IRL he is not a "mere rifleman". Take guess or three.

I have been attacked in a "non dangerous place", but due to my being armed, I walked away from that "non dangerous place". When and if you get attacked, location is not a important issue. Being over prepared is way better than being under prepared.

WMS

My preferred version of that quote is: "Nobody has ever died from having too much ammo."

Which isn't exactly true either, environmental conditions permitting.

As for the personal carry - I have yet to work a civilian job where I felt it was necessary and my personal life has yet to involve a situation where a gun would have been helpful. Three different incidents would have been helped by a roll of gauze, but that's neither here nor there.

If I did carry, though, I'd probably do the same configuration - one mag loaded, two on a belt and the fourth as a "oh frag" reserve.

-Siege

Edit 1: Errr?

Yeah, I know it sounds anal, but I really take issue with the sentiment. I get the idea, and, yeah, generally it's a lot better to have a couple mags extra than to be a couple short, but you really can overprepare and cause all kinds of problems in any number of situations.


See, this I support, because if you're in a self defense situation where you need a frag grenade, it's not really my place to be complaining that life has stopped treating you reasonably.

For the longest time I would carry a sidearm and two spare clips for that, and a main gun with two spare clips for that. If the character only used pistols, it'd be a light and a heavy pistol.

That changed on one run where I had to burn through 4 clips of machine pistol ammo in about 9 passes and still needed a whole lot more ammo. Luckily, that character was a mage so he had spells to fall back on. But it made me think more about what I carry.

So now I'm much more careful about what I bring. On a standard "I will probably have to kill a decent number of people" run, my current PC brings:
1 Assault rifle, 3 spare clips.
1 sidearm, 2 spare clips.
1 machine pistol, 1-2 spare clips.
4 grenades of varying types. Usually 2 smoke, 2 HE.

Last run he did, I didn't bring his shotgun, his AR, or his WA-2100 - just a weenie Steyr TMP and a Predator IV with APDS. I wanted to go light and quiet. Long story short, shit hit the fan, and I ended up having only 12 rounds left in the TMP and 4 in the predator.

Too much ammo is better than not enough. At least he still had his spur and a fire axe.

You'd likely be better off having a second gun you can reach with your off hand than that 4th mag. A little kel-tec or j-frame.

Tell me about it. On any given day, I have a kit resembling: two pocket knives, a multi-tool, two flashlights, a notepad, three pens, two handkerchiefs, a lighter, two protein bars, two "Crystal lite" drink mixes, various keys and a pair of black gloves. Not to mention a "medical brick" and a pack of gauze.

I shouldn't have spent all that time with the Boy Scouts.



Heh.

-Siege

I'd never carry a second weapon without having a professional reason to justify it - I know a guy who carried a .22 squirrel gun in his pocket and a .45 in his briefcase. He did that because he owned and operated a knife store in a "working class" section of town. The first was his "get off me" weapon. The second was his "stay off me" weapon.

However, I just don't want to be in a position to explain to a cop and his buddies why I'm carrying a weapon in the first place, never mind two without a reason other than "just in case."

To my thinking, it's easier to justify the extra mag over the extra gun. And in a protracted scenario, hypothetically, the extra mag would be more beneficial for me.

But like I said, personally I don't CCW a weapon - unless you count my sense of humor.

-Siege

In the enlightened sunshine state, you explain to the policeman that you're carrying two guns because you have a card in your wallet that says you may.

However, I find it hard to manage the load of two pistols at once, plus knife, flashlight, wallet, and cell phone. So I stick to one pistol and 29 rounds of ammunition, and if I come home from the gunfight with 26 rounds left, I'll smile. And if I come home from the gunfight with one 1 round left, I'll smile.

Come to think of it, if I come home from the gunfight at all, I'll smile.

Noting that I'm currently playing a face in a gang campaign. But since starting a gang in the Barrens means lots of gang bang, my face usually wears a huge dustcoat with lots of pockets in the inside in which she hides a Steyr TMP and an Ares Predator 4, both loaded with regular. Along with that she's got 2 clips regular and 1 clip Gel/S&S, whatever's available/feasible.

What a sad comment to read from an American.

EDIT: To clarify, it's not you that's making me sad, but rather the sentiment behind your post, and the fact I don't blame you. It's the situation, not the poster, that I'm disappointed in.

Hmm. I only own three magazines with an 8 round capacity. And I've only got 2 loaded right now. Will I die horribly because of this?

Odds are slim. But, well, y'might. *shrugs*

I need to find a local gunnery range and get a CCW permit. I'm sure I can purchase/wheedle a weapon away from my father. He doesn't shoot weapons, or carry concealed, but he owns an insane amount of guns. Well, it seems that way to be, probably close to 30 or more firable weapons.

Chris

Someone asked earlier:

210 rounds is a standard load for an American Soldier. Specifically, 7 magazines of 30 rnds each. I understand the 'basic load' is actually 270 rounds, and I've even been given that, but oddly, they only give you enough mags for 210... so that's all i've carried about with me.

Of course, I've also supplimented that with 40mm, so I'm hardly complaining of being supplied.

A SAW gunner usually has 2 or 3 200rnd boxes, but its become standard practice to issue '100rnd' 'magazines' so they can break one down and are more likely to have ammo handy while just wandering around someplace supposedly safe. Soldiers are lazy and if they think they can get away with it they'll ditch the heavy boxes for a trip to the PX...

There are only two times in life where a person can have too much ammo... When they're on fire, or when they're drowning!

As for magazines, I've always believed in carrying at least one spare, simply due to the possibility of a mechanical malfunction. If your only magazine decides to spontaneously self-destruct, you'll be awfully glad you brought that spare magazine...

I would consider a loaded firearm and two spare magazines to be the standard these days, especially with the prevalence of double magazine pouches. This would vary with the firearm in question, though. For some pistols, this would give you a total of 19-22 rounds, where for others, you could be looking at 60+ rounds of ammunition.

For times when you are expecting trouble, it is very simple to add another double magazine pouch, and bring the count up to four spare magazines. But if you are really expecting trouble, the correct answer is to bring a rifle instead of a handgun...

For the firearm-oriented characters I've played in the past, I've always focused on what a person could reasonably and comfortably carry. A pistol with two spare magazines is very easy to carry, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that you can carry 20 spare magazines without a duffel bag. As for rifles, I like to plan my load out based on common web gear. Most nylon web vests or harness systems tend to carry 6 rifle magazines, with the option of adding more 3-magazine pouches to the belt as needed.

One vest that I really like has room for 16 rifle magazines, and 3 pistol magazine. This is on the vest alone, and you can add even more to the web belt if desired. The only downside is the added weight from carrying 16 loaded rifle magazines!!! The reason I really like this particular vest is it also gives you the ability to carry 8 of the larger 20 round .308 magazines instead. Most vests are designed only for the standard 30 rd. M16 magazines, and it's getting harder to find good vests or pouches for the larger calibers.

One thing I like to do is keep all my character's gear laid out in an orderly fashion, so that I can just grab and go based on the scenario. I will usually run the pistol with 2-4 magazines, and keep the rifle vest fully loaded in case of emergency. It's much easier to grab a vest and a rifle, and not have to worry about filling your pockets with loose magazines or ammunition. It also makes it a lot easier when the GM asks you what you brought for the mission.

I know my method is bordering on overkill, but considering it's combining two of my favorite hobbies (Guns and Games), I'm willing to put in the extra effort.

To be fair, Crit, I also understand the cop's point of view and considering I tend to be a bit imposing in person, it all adds up to an unnecessary complication in my life when I don't feel the need to be armed. Now, that said, if I felt the need to carry a weapon, I would do so - potential complications or not.

When I say environmental considerations - I just got back from Iraq. Well, LSA Anaconda which - the occasional mortar notwithstanding, is pretty safe for a combat zone.

But I promise you, until you've tried to maneuver in body armor, ACH, SAPI plates, weapon, and 210 rounds in Iraqi summer heat, you have not sweated. Tack on a pound or two in additional odds and ends and a field pack for designated equipment like pro-masks and whatnot, plus full ACUs and it gets downright ugly.

Not only is it cumbersome and difficult as all hell to move in, but you're at heightened risk for dehydration, heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

-Siege

I'm of the school of thought that you can never have too much duct tape...

From that statistics I've read and the people I've talked to the idea of someone carrying more than one weapon (to be used in some sort of combo attack) for self defense does strike me as a bit goofy. I just can't imagine having the presence of mind, in a life or death situation, to go for one gun shoot accurately, and than go for another. It makes more sense to me that you would just go for one and reload if necessary. *shrugs* But my home state is the People Republic of California so... I've never had a conceal carry permit. I've also never been anywhere well I felt the ability to produce deadly force was worth the complications of carrying around a pop gun.


For some reason my players actually shoot through a fair amount of ammunition in SR4 and they've had to reload a couple of times, I think this is because they're big fans of traditional fire and maneuver fights where the troll puts down a nice thick wall of suppressing fire (now supplemented by the drone rigger). That said I don't think anyone carries more than 8 mags for their primary weapon and that's only if their rigged for war with grenades and other toys. They're walking around loadout is more reasonable with one or two weapons + an extra clip.

This might be too much ammo...





-karma

Most of it boils down to drills, Doc - if you drill something often enough, it becomes reflex.

The notion of a "backup weapon" usually comes from:

1. Smaller and faster to access - making it easier to conceal and deploy if necessary.
2. If the primary weapon is removed, malfunctions or is otherwise inaccessible.
3. Surprise - because my primary weapon is disarmed does not mean I'm defenseless.

-Siege

Well this is certainly true, you've just reminded me that I did spend the better part of week watching Marines practice drills where they engaged targets with one weapon and switched to another (while moving towards, away from, etc). I've never done this training myself (sadly) so I consider myself not particularly versed in "combat shooting" (the fact that I need a 3 point sling to accurately engage targets RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME doesn't help either). I'm sure if I had the time and resources to train properly I'd have a different opinion on the matter.

All I'm saying is that for myself, a person who isn't well trained at those sorts of drills, my inclination is to believe that in a life or death situation I'm only going to be able to perform one action immediatly and well and that planning for some sort of multiple step process (that I don't pratice till it's muscle memory) is setting myself up for failure. I didn't exactly object to having a spare just to the idea that it part of an immediate action. Maybe I misinterpeted your description?

But alas I must concede that you're right. If your buddy drilled till it was muscle memory on his two stage/weapon shooting than it certainly could work for him. Being a simple man with a simple mind i typically yearn for simple solutions

Sounds like Pat Rogers MEUSOC course. I've never shot the carbine version of this, but I've shot the pistol version (without the carbine transition). http://www.pgpft.com/MEUSOC_qual_M4-Pistol.pdf

Yep that looks very similiar to the course of fire they were shooting (sans the M4). I've done an abbreviated pistol course, we didn't rate enough rounds to do all the pivot and movement drills.

And for the record, failure drills and box drills are fun if slightly creepy.

My mage and I have a three stage situation thing, which I temper with common sense and physical mask as required.

Green: SMG (licensed) no spare ammo, actioneer suit or light armoured clothes with FFBA. The 'off duty' look (the gun is licensed well) and frankly if it may pose a problem I'll fall back magic and leave the gun in the car/apartment.

Orange: Add spare clips for SMGs (potentially, depending on what your doing, if its attending a meeting with a yakuza boss I'll leave the SMG in the car or hide it with physical mask) and have assault rifle in boot of car with 5 spare clips ready to go if required. Have car parked near by so if trouble begins it can be ordered to drive over.

Red: It's a 'all guns' situation, and in that case he'll have the SMG with two spare clips (usually one of them is stick and shock) and be clutching the assault rifle with an APDS clip loaded and 5 clips carried as a mix of APDS and regular ammo.

In Shadowrun, 2 Pistols, 2 mags each. (normal)
On a run 2 Pistols, SMG, and a AR. 4, 2, 6 mags.

IRL, a Walther .40 with 2, 12 round mags.

Anyone who doesn't carry a gun and has never needed one, more power to you. I hope you never do. But you really don't have the right to critisize someone who does and choses to carry 29 rounds (which is only 3 mages).

Chris
If do get a CCW permit, become a frequent shooter at your local gun range, also see if you can get some combat firearms training. Also if you can not shoot someone following the rules of the CCW permit laws, do not get one.

WMS