How do the rules work for cyberlimb armor? I know that each point of Armor Value is treated as Ballistic and Impact armor. But, do you stack the AV for all of your cyberlimbs, or do you average the AV just as you do with attribute ratings?
For example, if you have a left cyberarm with armor 1, right cyberarm with armor 2, left cyberleg with armor 3, and right cyberleg with armor 4, do gain +10 (1+2+3+4=10) Ballistic and Impact armor, or do you gain +2 ((1+2+3+4/4)=2.5, rounded down to 2) Ballistic and Impact armor?
Full Version: Cyberlimb armor--do you stack it or average it?
It seems as if it stacks.
Don't worry, isn't as bad as it seems at first glance.
Don't worry, isn't as bad as it seems at first glance.
I'm pretty sure the RAW doesn't say. All it says is when you're dealing with your whole body, you average the attribute values of the limbs. Armor isn't an attribute, but I think it applies.
On the other hand, having shin guards and forearm guards adds armor to your overall rating, so maybe having armor on just one arm would stack! I guess what it comes down to is I have no idea!
On the other hand, having shin guards and forearm guards adds armor to your overall rating, so maybe having armor on just one arm would stack! I guess what it comes down to is I have no idea!
It stacks, but unfortunatly I'm at work and don't have my book to provide the reference.
Cyberlimbs, helmets, shields, FFBA, PPP all stack on top of everything else
Of these only FFBA counts towards encumberance and that is at 1/2 rating
(Shields apply their own encumberance penalty, but its not due to their armor)
Armor Sets stack within the armor set. Otherwise all other forms of armor do not stack, but do add together for purposes of figuring encumberance.
Cyberlimbs, helmets, shields, FFBA, PPP all stack on top of everything else
Of these only FFBA counts towards encumberance and that is at 1/2 rating
(Shields apply their own encumberance penalty, but its not due to their armor)
Armor Sets stack within the armor set. Otherwise all other forms of armor do not stack, but do add together for purposes of figuring encumberance.
that'S the trouble with a combat system without hit-zones, the overall power of your attack determines if you hit on armor or not *g*
in SR3 this was emulated by the damage staging, each two successes meant from light to medium and in the end to deadly, meaning you basically landed a head-shot or somrthing like that . .
in SR3 this was emulated by the damage staging, each two successes meant from light to medium and in the end to deadly, meaning you basically landed a head-shot or somrthing like that . .
Thank you for the replies. I guess I'll have it stack, then.
Malicant, are you sure it's not so bad? Skull AV 2 and Torso + 4 limbs each at AV 4 gives 22 AV, plus armor worn. Seems awfully crazy to me. Of course, I realize that you have little room for other implants in those limbs, but still, that's easily over 30 AV with just one worn piece of armor.
Maybe I'll have to throw a cyborg at my players just so I can see how bad or not bad this is in practice.
Malicant, are you sure it's not so bad? Skull AV 2 and Torso + 4 limbs each at AV 4 gives 22 AV, plus armor worn. Seems awfully crazy to me. Of course, I realize that you have little room for other implants in those limbs, but still, that's easily over 30 AV with just one worn piece of armor.
Maybe I'll have to throw a cyborg at my players just so I can see how bad or not bad this is in practice.
How about this problem. Called shot to negate armor...
One person with 4 heavily armored cyberlimbs.
One person with FFBA full body.
Evidently the one with just heavily armored cyberlimbs is more difficult to hit an unarmored spot then the person whos covered head to toe in armor.
One person with 4 heavily armored cyberlimbs.
One person with FFBA full body.
Evidently the one with just heavily armored cyberlimbs is more difficult to hit an unarmored spot then the person whos covered head to toe in armor.
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 28 2008, 07:18 AM) 
How about this problem. Called shot to negate armor...
One person with 4 heavily armored cyberlimbs.
One person with FFBA full body.
Evidently the one with just heavily armored cyberlimbs is more difficult to hit an unarmored spot then the person whos covered head to toe in armor.
One person with 4 heavily armored cyberlimbs.
One person with FFBA full body.
Evidently the one with just heavily armored cyberlimbs is more difficult to hit an unarmored spot then the person whos covered head to toe in armor.
I was just thinking something similar a little earlier.
But, I realize why the rules are this way. Otherwise, EVERYONE would be making called shots to unarmored body parts, and you'd have to walk around in a plassteel suit of full plate mail ifyou want to live, which would become totally ridiculous. Realistic? Maybe. Fun? No.
It really not so bad. You have maybe a gazillion armor but that's about it. Not much other 'ware to make you a big bad... anything will fit into this guy and his attributes will be pretty low. Like around 6-at-best low. Being good at not dying is sure admirable, but not at the expense of abilities you actually need as a runner 
QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 28 2008, 07:28 AM)
It really not so bad. You have maybe a gazillion armor but that's about it. Not much other 'ware to make you a big bad... anything will fit into this guy and his attributes will be pretty low. Like around 6-at-best low. Being good at not dying is sure admirable, but not at the expense of abilities you actually need as a runner
Ahh, good point. Alrighty, then for sure stacking AV it is.
I don't think any of my players would be crazy enough to replace all body parts with cyberlimbs, anyway.
QUOTE (Malicant @ Mar 28 2008, 10:28 AM)
It really not so bad. You have maybe a gazillion armor but that's about it. Not much other 'ware to make you a big bad... anything will fit into this guy and his attributes will be pretty low. Like around 6-at-best low. Being good at not dying is sure admirable, but not at the expense of abilities you actually need as a runner
I know it's pretty much settled, but I just want to chime in to /agree with Malicant. It looks really horribly broken when you consider how much armor someone could have. But it's at the expense of pretty much everything else, and if your game is really so high-powered that this is actually achievable, there are a lot of much cooler things that are achievable as well.
Why be Robocop when you can be the Major?
i tend to disagree and bring up the concept of brick . . in the less specialized version a bit tempered down and made more usefull, he was STILL scary as drek in the compartment of taking/giving damage and could do some other things . .
Sure, with the right min/maxing this can end very horrible. But what can't?
Simple solution: Shoot the player that tries to do that in the face.
Simple solution: Shoot the player that tries to do that in the face.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Mar 28 2008, 10:48 AM)
i tend to disagree and bring up the concept of brick . . in the less specialized version a bit tempered down and made more usefull, he was STILL scary as drek in the compartment of taking/giving damage and could do some other things . .
He could certainly be a problem, depending on play style. That's what the GM approval stage is for.
If somebody wanted to try that in one of my typical games I'd try to talk them out of it for their own good. If the run has gotten to the point where absorbing large amounts of damage is useful, 9 times out of 10 this means the run has already failed miserably.
Magic and subduing come to mind as potentially viable ways to stop a super-armored cyberlimbed character. So, as Malicant said, I now don't see the problem with such a character. Toxins, diseases, and so forth work just as well on such a character as they do on non-cybered characters.
I see other disadvantages, too. Such a character would weigh a lot more, which would limit the type of terrain on which he could safely walk. It may limit the passengers in a vehicle, too. Put him on a boat, and he'd be smart to stay below decks to prevent getting washed overboard and sinking like a sack of steel.
I say if a player makes this kind of character, then the GM has the right to present situations where all of that cyberware is useless. I'm not saying do that every time, since the character would have paid for all of the cyberware. But, now and then is okay, just to remind the player that his character isn't Superman.
I see other disadvantages, too. Such a character would weigh a lot more, which would limit the type of terrain on which he could safely walk. It may limit the passengers in a vehicle, too. Put him on a boat, and he'd be smart to stay below decks to prevent getting washed overboard and sinking like a sack of steel.
I say if a player makes this kind of character, then the GM has the right to present situations where all of that cyberware is useless. I'm not saying do that every time, since the character would have paid for all of the cyberware. But, now and then is okay, just to remind the player that his character isn't Superman.
With so much armor you'd be losing the big advantage of the extra physical boxes from your cyberlimbs as well since prettymuch all of the damage you're taking will become stun damage.
QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 28 2008, 04:16 PM)
Thank you for the replies. I guess I'll have it stack, then.
Malicant, are you sure it's not so bad? Skull AV 2 and Torso + 4 limbs each at AV 4 gives 22 AV, plus armor worn. Seems awfully crazy to me. Of course, I realize that you have little room for other implants in those limbs, but still, that's easily over 30 AV with just one worn piece of armor.
Maybe I'll have to throw a cyborg at my players just so I can see how bad or not bad this is in practice.
Malicant, are you sure it's not so bad? Skull AV 2 and Torso + 4 limbs each at AV 4 gives 22 AV, plus armor worn. Seems awfully crazy to me. Of course, I realize that you have little room for other implants in those limbs, but still, that's easily over 30 AV with just one worn piece of armor.
Maybe I'll have to throw a cyborg at my players just so I can see how bad or not bad this is in practice.
It does stack.
Besides, think about it - people made out of titanium usually ignore weak things like 5 grams of lead.
I would on the other hand only count the locations armour value when dealing with called shots. Aiming for someone with head armour of 2 and an armour jacket it would be armour 10 not 30.
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 28 2008, 09:05 AM)
It does stack.
Besides, think about it - people made out of titanium usually ignore weak things like 5 grams of lead.
Besides, think about it - people made out of titanium usually ignore weak things like 5 grams of lead.
Yes, realistically that is true. In terms of game balance and even game fun, this should not be true.
QUOTE
I would on the other hand only count the locations armour value when dealing with called shots. Aiming for someone with head armour of 2 and an armour jacket it would be armour 10 not 30.
Called shots are not that easy. Taking as an example a cyberlimbed character with 30 AV, a called shot to his AV 2 head would suffer a -30 dice pool modifier. Clearly, not an easy shot to make. In fact, very few, if any, can make that shot!
Total interpretation, but I kind of always interpreted the called shot for avoiding armor to be to avoid worn armor, with innate armor, underarmor and cyberlimb armor all still remaining.
In other words, you can call shot to try and avoid that armor jacket that you can clearly see, but when the bullet deflects off the cybertorso you didn't realize was underneath, you get to go "oh shit" and realize they've got something you can't account for.
Then again, I've also just stopped trying to interpret it before and just house ruled that it was a variable value that the shooter chooses. Take a -5 penalty and they get 5 less dice of armor to roll. Take a -30 penalty and they get 30 less dice of armor.
In other words, you can call shot to try and avoid that armor jacket that you can clearly see, but when the bullet deflects off the cybertorso you didn't realize was underneath, you get to go "oh shit" and realize they've got something you can't account for.
Then again, I've also just stopped trying to interpret it before and just house ruled that it was a variable value that the shooter chooses. Take a -5 penalty and they get 5 less dice of armor to roll. Take a -30 penalty and they get 30 less dice of armor.
QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 28 2008, 06:10 PM)
Called shots are not that easy. Taking as an example a cyberlimbed character with 30 AV, a called shot to his AV 2 head would suffer a -30 dice pool modifier. Clearly, not an easy shot to make. In fact, very few, if any, can make that shot!
Mr. Lucky can, but let's not go there any further.
QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 28 2008, 01:09 PM)
Magic and subduing come to mind as potentially viable ways to stop a super-armored cyberlimbed character. So, as Malicant said, I now don't see the problem with such a character. Toxins, diseases, and so forth work just as well on such a character as they do on non-cybered characters.
I see other disadvantages, too. Such a character would weigh a lot more, which would limit the type of terrain on which he could safely walk. It may limit the passengers in a vehicle, too. Put him on a boat, and he'd be smart to stay below decks to prevent getting washed overboard and sinking like a sack of steel.
I say if a player makes this kind of character, then the GM has the right to present situations where all of that cyberware is useless. I'm not saying do that every time, since the character would have paid for all of the cyberware. But, now and then is okay, just to remind the player that his character isn't Superman.
I see other disadvantages, too. Such a character would weigh a lot more, which would limit the type of terrain on which he could safely walk. It may limit the passengers in a vehicle, too. Put him on a boat, and he'd be smart to stay below decks to prevent getting washed overboard and sinking like a sack of steel.
I say if a player makes this kind of character, then the GM has the right to present situations where all of that cyberware is useless. I'm not saying do that every time, since the character would have paid for all of the cyberware. But, now and then is okay, just to remind the player that his character isn't Superman.
Couldn´t agree more, onde had a character like that got his ass kicked by an air elemental.
QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 28 2008, 06:10 PM)
Yes, realistically that is true. In terms of game balance and even game fun, this should not be true.
Trust me, BULLETproof they may be but there are SO many things people can do to you. Someone with armour 30 is a typical one-shot bunny good at ONE thing, very much like others in the team, a specific specialist. Yes, 30 in armour can be bizarre, but it is also simple to create a troll with second hand bioware and get almost the same effect - cheaper.
For example, how well does someone out of titanium float? What ELSE could he have used all those cyberlimb capacity for?
QUOTE (Ranger @ Mar 28 2008, 06:10 PM)
Called shots are not that easy. Taking as an example a cyberlimbed character with 30 AV, a called shot to his AV 2 head would suffer a -30 dice pool modifier. Clearly, not an easy shot to make. In fact, very few, if any, can make that shot!
True, that's why I would say I'd ignore the other limbs. Sure, you go by 30 when you blast away at him. When you'd shoot him in the head I would count the HEAD armour and Armour Jacket giving a dicepool reduction of -10. But that's just me.
This thread reminded me that I ought to redo brick now that arsenal is out. Just a few quick minor tweaks and he has since lost the ballistic shield (didn't need it) and his armor has gone up to an impressive 26/25. Along with a nice chem protection mod on his FFBA suit, and non-conductive on his armor jacket, means that taking him down will either require gas attacks, (note to self, get an internal air tank in one of those limbs) or someone who is very lucky succeeding against avoiding armor with a blowdart gun or somesuch. Anyway, for all your fun and whatnot, here he is again.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 28 2008, 10:49 AM)
Trust me, BULLETproof they may be but there are SO many things people can do to you. Someone with armour 30 is a typical one-shot bunny good at ONE thing, very much like others in the team, a specific specialist. Yes, 30 in armour can be bizarre, but it is also simple to create a troll with second hand bioware and get almost the same effect - cheaper.
For example, how well does someone out of titanium float? What ELSE could he have used all those cyberlimb capacity for?
For example, how well does someone out of titanium float? What ELSE could he have used all those cyberlimb capacity for?
Oh, you know, modular cyberlimbs and having the waterjet feet in a smuggling compartment would be one way to get around it.
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 28 2008, 10:49 AM)
True, that's why I would say I'd ignore the other limbs. Sure, you go by 30 when you blast away at him. When you'd shoot him in the head I would count the HEAD armour and Armour Jacket giving a dicepool reduction of -10. But that's just me.
Ok, well, then lets just ignore all the armor rules entirely. Why ignore the arms when you shoot at his head? Why don't you reduce the jacket stats some, cause some of the jacket is protecting his arms too, so thats like, -2 for the armor jacket because part of its on his arms, and those don't count. Oh, and the parts that are covering his legs, thats probably -1 or -2 there. So really, it should be like, 4 armor that counts towards the torso of an armor jacket. Since thats all your counting for a called shot to only hit his head. Why not just do -4 dp for +4dv called shot and say thats a head shot. Let his armor apply, because he has it. Unless you're going to houserule the entire armor system out for everyone to be location based, I'd say don't even touch it.
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Mar 28 2008, 09:49 AM)
True, that's why I would say I'd ignore the other limbs. Sure, you go by 30 when you blast away at him. When you'd shoot him in the head I would count the HEAD armour and Armour Jacket giving a dicepool reduction of -10. But that's just me.
I assume that you're trying to look at this from a semi-realistic standpoint, which is why you say count only the jacket and the head armor.
If that's the case, then how would an armored jacket count any more than an armored cybertorso? Or any other armored cyberlimb for that matter? From a realistic standpoint, the jacket and all limbs except the head should be moot.
But, if you made such a ruling in the game, then armor in general is useless.
Edit: I see that Tarantula beat me to it.
I still say that if someone wants to be immune to bullets, fine, let them be immune to bullets. That doesn't mean you win Shadowrun. It's a fun gimmick for a character, but it won't break the game. I suppose it might if you've got an asshat player who doesn't care if his shenanigans fail the run and get his team killed, in which case you probably shouldn't let that player play a bulletproof death-bot, but otherwise it's really not a problem.
There are few shadowruns where not dying when a very large number of people shoot at you with very large guns actually helps you succeed at your mission. It just helps you survive to fail another day.
There are few shadowruns where not dying when a very large number of people shoot at you with very large guns actually helps you succeed at your mission. It just helps you survive to fail another day.
QUOTE (Doughboy @ Mar 28 2008, 11:30 AM)
With so much armor you'd be losing the big advantage of the extra physical boxes from your cyberlimbs as well since prettymuch all of the damage you're taking will become stun damage.
Pain editor.
QUOTE (Squinky @ Mar 28 2008, 09:39 PM)
Pain editor.
Huh... So you effectively have 20+ boxs.... That quite a few stunballs, but it's only one possession spirit.
QUOTE (GryMor @ Mar 28 2008, 07:57 PM)
Huh... So you effectively have 20+ boxs.... That quite a few stunballs, but it's only one possession spirit.
Street Magic, 102, "Possessing spirits cannot perceive or operate AR or direct neural or cybernetic interfaces, and do not benefit from implants, cyberware, or nanoware that would require active control (i.e.: a spirit can benefit from a vessel’s bone lacing or eye replacement, but cannot activate vision enhancements or a datajack)."
So, even if they successfully possess him, (which, a force 4 spirit would have a 50/50 chance), he'd just fall down. About the worst they could do is make him say mean things.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Mar 28 2008, 08:12 PM)
So, even if they successfully possess him, (which, a force 4 spirit would have a 50/50 chance), he'd just fall down. About the worst they could do is make him say mean things.
This is probably off topic, but the mental picture here is priceless.
Spirits can activate cyberlimbs. Cyberlimbs don't have an active interface. You don't have to spend an action to activate cyberlimbs, you use them just like normal limbs. It's just like how spirits can see out of cybereyes, but not use vision enhancements -- cyber parts that function just like natural parts can be used by spirits, because they're part of you, since you paid essence. The spirits just can't operate the interface to use their bells and whistles. They could use cyberlimbs to walk around and do regular stuff, they just couldn't turn on a cyberhand gyromount, fire a cybergun, etc.
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Mar 28 2008, 02:04 PM)
I still say that if someone wants to be immune to bullets, fine, let them be immune to bullets. That doesn't mean you win Shadowrun. It's a fun gimmick for a character, but it won't break the game. I suppose it might if you've got an asshat player who doesn't care if his shenanigans fail the run and get his team killed, in which case you probably shouldn't let that player play a bulletproof death-bot, but otherwise it's really not a problem.
There are few shadowruns where not dying when a very large number of people shoot at you with very large guns actually helps you succeed at your mission. It just helps you survive to fail another day.
There are few shadowruns where not dying when a very large number of people shoot at you with very large guns actually helps you succeed at your mission. It just helps you survive to fail another day.
Hehe, well said. Ordinarily, you want to not be shot at at all. If you just stand there and take it, the enemies will call for backup. And the enemies always have a LOT of backup once you go beyond a basic street level run. I see lots of people try to create your perfect defense type shadowrunners who can't be hurt, but that's a losing battle. No matter how many dodge dice you have, full autofire will hit you. And no matter how many body dice you have, a mana spell will still fry your brain. And no matter how big a spirit possesses you, someone else will have a bigger one... or just a big mana static spell that nerfs it into a little baby spirit
The real problem with your spirit tanks is they rely on military grade spirits, which always gets the astral overwatch mage team called in, and even for high force spirits it's pretty easy to banish them.A successful shadowrunner has to be balanced - defensive enough that you can survive bad situations, stealthy enough that you can hopefully avoid bad situations, and offensive enough that you can overcome bad situations. If you don't have all three, if you gimick out on one or the other, you are not a shadowrunner. Pure defense makes you a circus performer who can impress everyone with their toughness or dodging, pure stealth makes you a good spy, but not much else, and pure offense makes you a splatter on the pavement. None of which really cut mustard for a shadowrunner.
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 28 2008, 09:46 PM)
Spirits can activate cyberlimbs. Cyberlimbs don't have an active interface. You don't have to spend an action to activate cyberlimbs, you use them just like normal limbs. It's just like how spirits can see out of cybereyes, but not use vision enhancements -- cyber parts that function just like natural parts can be used by spirits, because they're part of you, since you paid essence. The spirits just can't operate the interface to use their bells and whistles. They could use cyberlimbs to walk around and do regular stuff, they just couldn't turn on a cyberhand gyromount, fire a cybergun, etc.
"direct neural or cybernetic interfaces" cyberlimbs are controlled via DNI. Thusly, spirits can't use them.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Mar 29 2008, 08:11 AM)
"direct neural or cybernetic interfaces" cyberlimbs are controlled via DNI. Thusly, spirits can't use them.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Mar 29 2008, 07:11 AM)
"direct neural or cybernetic interfaces" cyberlimbs are controlled via DNI. Thusly, spirits can't use them.
Possessing spirits can indeed move cyberlimbs (in effect they're puppeting the vessel's body) in the same manner that they can a rag doll, a corpse, or a golem. What it can't do is use any implanted ware in that cyberlimb that requires DNI activation or control (such as a cyberweapon/implanted device, or control a cameleon sheath).
the Syn has spoken.
so what about a voltron build? could you have those limbs themselves be inhabited by spirits?
i know, it would not do too much but the image of a voltron-troll just screams awesome at me ^^
so what about a voltron build? could you have those limbs themselves be inhabited by spirits?
i know, it would not do too much but the image of a voltron-troll just screams awesome at me ^^
Cyberlimbs are part of your body. You can't have multiple spirits possessing the same body.
Now, if parts of you were drones, that might a different story. If you had drone hands and drone eyes, you could detach those and put spirits in them, because when you detach them they stop being part of you. Not that it would be useful for you to have no eyes, no hands, and four really worthless possessed drones though
If you want to be a spirit juggernaut, just have one possess you 
Now, if you had a bunch of drones with their own seperate control systems stuck together into one big drone, spirits could probably possess each part. They would have to be separated enough for each to be its own vessel though, because you can't have multiple spirits in the same vessel.
Now, if parts of you were drones, that might a different story. If you had drone hands and drone eyes, you could detach those and put spirits in them, because when you detach them they stop being part of you. Not that it would be useful for you to have no eyes, no hands, and four really worthless possessed drones though
If you want to be a spirit juggernaut, just have one possess you Now, if you had a bunch of drones with their own seperate control systems stuck together into one big drone, spirits could probably possess each part. They would have to be separated enough for each to be its own vessel though, because you can't have multiple spirits in the same vessel.
tilt @.@
ah, yes, i forgot about the part where the drone-hands and eyes are suddenly your body as long as they are attached x.x . .
ah, yes, i forgot about the part where the drone-hands and eyes are suddenly your body as long as they are attached x.x . .
QUOTE (Synner @ Mar 29 2008, 03:27 AM)
Possessing spirits can indeed move cyberlimbs (in effect they're puppeting the vessel's body) in the same manner that they can a rag doll, a corpse, or a golem. What it can't do is use any implanted ware in that cyberlimb that requires DNI activation or control (such as a cyberweapon/implanted device, or control a cameleon sheath).
Another question, can a possessed character still issue DNI commands to his cyberware? Does the spirit take over his brain too? He is still able to think, so shouldn't he still be able to issue DNI commands, such as telling all his limbs to turn off? Or if merely turning them off doesn't stop the spirit from moving them, to lock in place?
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Mar 28 2008, 11:12 PM)
So, even if they successfully possess him, (which, a force 4 spirit would have a 50/50 chance), he'd just fall down. About the worst they could do is make him say mean things.
This is great, still working fairly hard to keep from laughing too loud here at work.
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Mar 29 2008, 12:53 PM)
Another question, can a possessed character still issue DNI commands to his cyberware? Does the spirit take over his brain too? He is still able to think, so shouldn't he still be able to issue DNI commands, such as telling all his limbs to turn off? Or if merely turning them off doesn't stop the spirit from moving them, to lock in place?
No, they can't. A possessed character is basically walled off inside their own mind. They don't have any power to do anything except observe what's happening and give commands to the spirit possessing them. They could order the spirit to activate cyberware, but since the spirit can't do that, nothing would happen.
As to whether turning off someone's limbs would make a spirit stop moving, that's a good question. A possessed person couldn't turn off their own limbs, but a hacker could. I would say that turning off the limbs wouldn't affect a spirit though. After all, when a spirit possesses a plasteel homonculus, it can still walk around. And homounculi are basically just statues with articulated joints, they can't move on their own. Maybe turning off a limb would prevent the limb's attributes from adding to the spirit's, though. If you had a Str 8 cyberarm, and a force 6 spirit, it would usually give you a Str 14 arm (assuming Str = Force for the spirit). But if the arm's powered servos and such are deactivated, it would no longer have a strength, right? But then again, a plasteel homonculus has a strength even though it can't move on its own... So maybe the spirit can make the arm work even without power, because it's magical.
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 31 2008, 01:48 PM)
No, they can't. A possessed character is basically walled off inside their own mind. They don't have any power to do anything except observe what's happening and give commands to the spirit possessing them. They could order the spirit to activate cyberware, but since the spirit can't do that, nothing would happen.
As to whether turning off someone's limbs would make a spirit stop moving, that's a good question. A possessed person couldn't turn off their own limbs, but a hacker could. I would say that turning off the limbs wouldn't affect a spirit though. After all, when a spirit possesses a plasteel homonculus, it can still walk around. And homounculi are basically just statues with articulated joints, they can't move on their own. Maybe turning off a limb would prevent the limb's attributes from adding to the spirit's, though. If you had a Str 8 cyberarm, and a force 6 spirit, it would usually give you a Str 14 arm (assuming Str = Force for the spirit). But if the arm's powered servos and such are deactivated, it would no longer have a strength, right? But then again, a plasteel homonculus has a strength even though it can't move on its own... So maybe the spirit can make the arm work even without power, because it's magical.
As to whether turning off someone's limbs would make a spirit stop moving, that's a good question. A possessed person couldn't turn off their own limbs, but a hacker could. I would say that turning off the limbs wouldn't affect a spirit though. After all, when a spirit possesses a plasteel homonculus, it can still walk around. And homounculi are basically just statues with articulated joints, they can't move on their own. Maybe turning off a limb would prevent the limb's attributes from adding to the spirit's, though. If you had a Str 8 cyberarm, and a force 6 spirit, it would usually give you a Str 14 arm (assuming Str = Force for the spirit). But if the arm's powered servos and such are deactivated, it would no longer have a strength, right? But then again, a plasteel homonculus has a strength even though it can't move on its own... So maybe the spirit can make the arm work even without power, because it's magical.
And what if the hacker/sammy sends a command that locks the joints in place. As in, actively resists being moved.
I would question whether a cyberlimb has a "don't move" override. It seems like a bad idea... Assuming that it could be physically locked in place, I guess the spirit couldn't move it. But short of a physical lockdown, it wouldn't matter what a hacker does.
QUOTE (Larme @ Mar 31 2008, 09:00 PM)
I would question whether a cyberlimb has a "don't move" override. It seems like a bad idea... Assuming that it could be physically locked in place, I guess the spirit couldn't move it. But short of a physical lockdown, it wouldn't matter what a hacker does.
Surely theres a "hold position" command. Good for when you're wanting to be absolutely as still as possible.
If that was true, cyberlimbs would give you a bonus to stealth or something.
a cyberlimb is just a machine . . granted, an sophisticated machine, but a machine none the less . . i don'T see why they should not come with such a command . . i mean, in SR4 they finally wrote in the biggest advantage of those things . . you can frigging switch off the pain if you want to . . technically speaking you could lock your str15(if the whole arm or just the hand is STR15) around a ledge and switch off anything from fatigue to pain that would not be happening in the rest of your meat body and just hang off of that ledge for some days on end . .
Turning the limb off is not the same as a physical lock. A physical lock would have to engage some kind of powered mechanism that actually prevents the limb from moving. The utility of such a mechanism would be really trivial, so I don't see why it would exist. "Because they can" is not a very good justification for building technology into a device. You don't need a physical lock to keep a limb still, because it's a machine I imagine that your ordinary effort to keep your limb still would automatically work really well. Normal limbs shake because of the biological workings inside of them, so when you tell your limbs "don't move," they might still move. Machine limbs wouldn't. You wouldn't need a physical lock to keep them still, so it doesn't seem like something that would be built into them.
Hmmm...
I guess if a cybered up tank were possessed by a spirit, it might be possible for the hacker to hack its limbs and turn off the powered assist. The spirit would then only get its force strength, much as if it were possessing a plasteel homunculus.
thoughts?
I guess if a cybered up tank were possessed by a spirit, it might be possible for the hacker to hack its limbs and turn off the powered assist. The spirit would then only get its force strength, much as if it were possessing a plasteel homunculus.
thoughts?
Hrm, or, possibly, since the limbs are not being mentally controlled to use their motors/servos etc, their strength naturally doesn't help the possessing spirit. Since effectively, the limbs aren't receiving "move" commands, but rather are moving as a result of the possession.
@ornot: That's what I thought, until I realized that a Plasteel Homonculus has a strength rating, and it doesn't have powered assist, it doesn't even have power. I think the spirits can use their spirit-osity to make a cyberlimb work at full capacity no matter what a hacker does, because they're magical. If they can make an immobile statue with articulated joints walk around, they can make a cyberlimb work. See p.87: A plasteel homonculus adds 8 to the spirit's strength even though it can't move on its own. So the spirit operates the person's body not like they were just a different brain controlling the same body. They infuse the entire body, and make it dance like a puppet, using their own magicky force to animate it, even if it's not alive and can't move on its own. That makes me think that a hacker could send whatever signals they wanted to a cyberlimb, but the limb would not respond because it's being controlled by magic now.
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