I just got arsenal, and am vastly disappointed that there was absolutely no mention of bikes. Real bikes, not motorcycles. Given the current trend of bicycles becoming more and more prevelant as a mode of transportation, especially in areas where people care about the environment, and the constant increase in the cost of carbon based fuels, and the ease with which bicycles can be produced and used, there is absolutley no reason they aren't included.
To give a couple examples, I personally can often make better time in on my bike than the local busses do during peak commuting times. And that's not in area that would be the equivalent to GG.
In NYC, and other big cities, they still use bike messengers as the preferred option over motor vehicles because bikes are almost always faster.
Given that cars cause gridlock and bikes can split lanes, bikes make better time in the inner city.
Bikes aren't generally traceable the way cars are... no electronics.
Bikes come in many different forms, standard road, recumbent lwb, recumbent swb, tall, recumbent trikes,standard trikes mountain, bmx, and by 2070 some form of human powered aircraft. Furthermore, they can come with a wide variety of accesories/ mods... covers to increase speed and provide armor, gyro units to help stabilize, and a myriad of interesting toys by 2070.
Finally bikes can go places most vehicles can't, sidewalks, narrow trails, inside buildings etc.
Aside from this small deficiency I found arsenal to quite good

Well you see it's 2070. If anyone is riding a bike in 2070 they are in for a world of hurt considering how SR works. If any character got on a bike they would probably be shot for no reason what soever... that or be given a motorcycle and told to "cut that out." Seriously though just create a bike if you want.... I mean in a world like this the only thing riding a bike does is make you go slower then a Shadow Runner would want.

Remember most of what appears in the BBB (and arsenal) is what I consider the type of gear that shadowrunners would use. The only reason I can think of why they don't have bikes is the same reason why toothpaste isn't listed (because lets face it it's just not important enough considering all of the other things a runner would want.)

Bikes, inline skates, skateboards, "heelies", hoverboards (based on the skimmer feet in Augmentation), yeah, that stuff would be pretty cool to have rules for.

It would even be neat to see some sort of "kinetic clothing" that could take energy from limb movements and give a little extra power-assist to your bike/skates.

...the vision of Sammy on a Ten Speed comes back to mind.


...inline skates are in Arsenal (p.62)

Bah. You know, I keep missing these things.

When I saw those in there I knew you would be remembering it

I don't know about bikes making you go slower than a shadowrunner would want. Shadowruns very often take place in cities, and cities often have terrible, terrible traffic, not to mention random blockages and other stupid crap that a bike can often go right around. In cities (real cities) there are often cops on bikes, cops on horses, and even cops on rollerblades (okay the last are not in real cities, but still). Probably you could have some sort of electric hybrid bike or something, but it seems like regular muscle-powered bikes are pretty worthwhile today in cities.

Plus, being a bike courier (or having a cover as a bike courier) lets you get into at least the foyer of just about any building so you can scan wireless nodes, palm off a bug or microdrone, or just record some video for casing the place. And it provides an excuse for wearing an Urban Explorer jumpsuit.

That would be cool to get rules for bikes and other muscle powered forms of propulsion. I can see it easily slipping the minds of the writers because when you think Shadowrun universe you definitely don't think bikes. Kudos, OP. Way to think around corners
I almost think this is poll worthy.

Also, think about what a runner with Strength of 6 or 7 & Agility 6 (common enough for a sammy) can do with a bike. They might be able to out run cars in a city quite easily.

...actually there was a character in one of the campaigns I was in who was a bike messenger.

NO! NONE FOR YOU!

Erm, sorry. I really don't care if your character rides a bike. But something about human powered cycles just says "wuss" to me, while simultaneously saying "ESPN-2." I'd rather not see them crop up in Shadowrun, because I fear them becoming too common. Shadowrun is about big growling choppers, and futuristic racing bikes that leave neon streaks as afterimages in your eyes! Skates are ok, because you look less dorky when skating than when pedaling a bike...

Regardless, to add bikes to a game I would just use the rules for inline skates, except it might be harder to do certain tasks since you need to steer, and combat while riding a bike would usually not be possible.

On the OP's point about bike messengers: it is my impression that Shadowrun has adopted Snow Crash into its canon when it comes to messengers. They wear Rapid Transit jumpsuits (which change color) and they skate. Not on smartwheeled skateboards, but on inline skates. And they don't have 'poons, because you can only do so much copying before you're violating a copyright But still the same idea. Bikes are not part of Snow Crash, and they're not as awesome as skates, so to hell with em!

If there were bikes, they'd be electric grid powered bikes. Why would you want a bicycle, when you can have a horseman that sustainably go 80km/h? Or even a terrier that can go 40. Thats as good as an electric scooter, which is still a helluva lot better than a bicycle.

Hell, even a dodge scoot would really be the closest equivalent of a bike that you'll get. All the benefits of bicycle travel (splits lanes, etc.) but bonus of not having to pedal, you can put smart tires on it, and whatnot. Not to mention running away on a bicycle is likely to get you screwed.

As far as getting through traffic, what about the Revolution and its giant smart tire that can roll over most other vehicles?

I think the PMVs have pretty much cornered the market, i do think its reasonable that there'd still be bikes in shadowrun. its two main advantages are cost (bikes arn't gonna cost you anything more than a few hundred up front, and maybe fifty a year in maitanance), and portability (titanium/ceramic frames made with smart materials and powered folding points, i see these futurebikes folding up and being slung over your back with no more bulk than your Ares Alpha).

weren't there bikes in the SR3 Rigger-Books? at least in one of them?
if so, one could try to simply port them over . .

Yeah, and monocycles. Because Bonzo the Clown is much less hilarious than bike couriers. And segways, perhaps the most gangsta form of wheeled transportation there is.

Ok, you really needed the sarcasm to get your message across

And since when does the monocycle look anything like a unicycle? And segways are totally hardcore

Regardless, there's never been a bicycle in SR, ever, so it's not exactly surprising that they left them out of Arsenal.

entertainment systems papoose or something like that . . i am pretty sure, that there was at least one usual bike in one of those SR3 books . . but i am at work and can't access any of my stuff

The entertainment systems papoose was a scooter like the dodge scoot. It was just a bit better. Cost a little more, went 50% faster, and could carry a bit more.

Kinda like the high-end of the dodge scoot.

My honest opinion, couriers would use horseman PMVs with the advanced cargo module and smart tires.

17,000 for the vehicle, plus 7,500 for the wheels.

Technically you don't even need the wheels, as it has "walk-mode" which lets it go on sidewalks and in elevators.

The reasons I think couriers would do this, is twofold. First, they have added safety from the protection of the horseman chassis. Secondly, they can carry a number of items (roughly a large car trunk's worth) at once, and can deliver them (via mechanical arms) without ever having to get out of the horseman. Add in 1,500 more (not much) and make the shell have a rigger cocoon inside it for added protection. It only takes about a minute to get into it (not really that bad at say the start of a shift) and offers the driver much increased survivability. Throw it in as an ejection seat for 500 more, and now your courier is set for his life of delivering. He should almost never have to worry about where he has to deliver his cargo. Hell, beef up the armor some more, throw in chameleon coating, and he might even be willing to go to the barrens for deliveries (which could justify how he affords all this crap).

Hmm, I think I just got a new rigger character idea.

Bike speeds would be nice. Apart from that bit of info, I would say that bike stats are what refs are for. For corpers the whole riding to the office on a bike in your nice gated community must still be promoted for cost and well being. So they exist in SR, just stat them up and post them here for everyone to use.

Hell I even had a combat decker that kept fit by being a cycle courier.

Back in sr3 I wrote up rules for them, but lost them in the intervening years.
I still say bikes have certain inherent advantages that would make them ideal for runners, especially any souped up strength runner.
To Whit.. better stealth, no grid guide tracking, in urban areas can often be faster than cars or motorcycles, cheaper (forgot that one in my original post), can go far more places (I really don't think your dodge scoot can split lanes nearly as safely, and in line skates will never replace bikes for messengering there a reason man made gears,) you can produce your own elec while riding to power all those nifty toys that can go on them.
If they can list in line skates and skis, there's really no reason not to have bikes.
As to combat, the swiss army just a few years ago quit buying/ producing swiss army mountain bikes. They included a built in weapon mount for lmgs (I shit you not.) Firing a pistol from on a bike wouldn't be any harder than from any other vehicle.

Back in one of the Rigger books there was a motorized bike that the rider could pedal or use the motor.






Oh no, the Joker's getting away on a Huffy, quick! To the Bat-Segways!

Ha. No. Bicycle couriers are all about being hardcore (often crazy). They get paid about minimum wage and are three times as likely to be injured on the job as meat packers are. The whole economic reason for the existence of bicycle messengers is twofold: 1) they're cheap: it's a guy on a bike getting paid next to diddly, and 2) they're fast: a bicycle goes through traffic in a way that even a motorcycle cannot.

Really, all this "bikes are wuss" dumbassery and so instead we're going to have the messenger cocooned in some multi-thousand-nuyen safe-tastic fancy rigger thing? I mean, why bother having the rigger there in person even? The drone can just be remotely piloted (or use its own Pilot) up to the building, someone puts the optical memory chip, blood sample, or sushi into the climate-controlled compartment, fly to the delivery spot, maybe messaging the recipient while en route, and then it's unloaded by the person receiving the delivery.

No, bikes are the "punk" part of cyberpunk.

Now, an assassin using a bike messenger job as a cover (a la Grosse Pointe Blank), that's another story.

...says the guy who presented the "cowgirl" riding a motorcycle that's dressed up as a horse.

(Not that it wasn't a cool idea, mind you, but it does kind of bar you from the "arbiter of style" role).

I'd borrow the rules for inline/cyberskates, but rather than the +50% bonus to movement say +100% (or some other number, if you don't like that one).

Might I refer you to the GMC Hermes Van and GMC Sandal delivery drones then? Bike couriers wouldn't be around in the nice neighborhoods, cause drones are even cheaper, and probably more reliable too. They wouldn't be around the slummy parts (such as Z zones) that the drones wouldn't be used in, cause the courier would probably get rolled just for his bike and plus whatever was in the package.

Well I did say bikes are wuss, but I did NOT advocate couriers riding around in horsemen. Horsemen are in the dictionary next to the word wuss

There's certainly a hardcore punk element to bikes, I just think it's drastically less than skates and skateboards (which we don't have rule for, either). The fact is, the major courier-centric piece of Cyberpunk fiction is Snow Crash. It was about skateboards. Skates are kinda like that. For that reason, I think skates are more part of the genre. There's no reason why couriers couldn't ride skates instead of bikes. This fixation on bikes doesn't make that much sense to me...

Are there bikes in SR4? Of course. Can you ride one? Why the hell not? It's worse than skates, because you can go less places on a bike than on skates, and it occupies your hands. It's not like there's any reason to actively exclude them from the game. Just use the rules for skates (maybe a slightly higher running multiplier) and be done with your complaining!

Having been a bike messenger in NYC I have to say that most of people who would even consider doing the job have to have a bit of insanity. But can't you say the same thing about most runners?
In regards to the hermes van, bicycles in the nicer parts of town (generally your most urban, sky raker filled areas,) are going to be far faster.
I currently live in an area called felony flats, and (knock on wood) I've never had anyone bother me about my bike. Partly because I am far more stealthy than a car/ motorcycle.

i'd be more afraid of being bothered for a motor-bike, because it's such a load more worth than a usual bike and does not look "wussi" . . i HAVE once been bothered for my bike, but hey . . know what? it's mcuh more easy to hit somebody with a bike than with a motorcycle . .

Having been a bike messenger in NYC, I have to say that anyone who would even consider the job has to be a bit insane. However, the money wasn't that bad, it depended on how good you were. If you were smart and able to combine different runs, you were fast, and got along well with your dispatcher, you could actually make good money $500- $1000 a wk (that's in 1986 dollars)
In regards to the Hermes van, most places where bike messengers are used a bike sould be significantly faster most of the day.
Also, don't forget that there are plenty of places that prohibit motor vehicles, but a bike would be allowed... Awakened nations especially.

Who's complaining? We're talking on a forum. Posting, really.

The "fixation" on bikes is probably because we tend to see, IRL, people riding bikes a lot more than skates. Especially as couriers. I don't think I've ever seen rollerblade couriers, or someone on rollerblades delivering food (outside of a retro diner, but that's waiting tables, not delivering really). It's also a flavor thing -- some people like bikes more than skates, and why not?

Snow Crash was great, and is still one of my favorites, but I can only think of one other courier-centric cyberpunk novel, and that was Virtual Light. Which, admittedly, was in some respects a second-rate Snow Crash. But it was about a bike messenger, when it wasn't busy being about AR or gentrification.

Don't knock the Horseman!

I never thought I would need one, but now with bad back, I sure do need one to get about. Walking is very painful. Now thanks to my Horseman, they can run after me at 4.5 mph! I can't wait to take it to FL in June so I can chase my 3-yr old granddaughter in her bike!

I'm not sure how you think a bike messenger would be faster than an automated untiring wheeled drone. Especially considering the drone can maintain a speed of 60kph. (Roughly 37mph).

Some quick googling gives mountain bike average speeds of 13-18mph (depending on tires) and road bikes average speeds of 18-22mph. They do mention competitive riders can maintain 30+, even so, that'd put them at slightly slower than the drone for the best of the best.

...you can hack a Sandal, you can't hack a Bike Messenger (unless you have a katana or combat axe).

And in the nice AAA zones that sandal's get used, it really shouldn't be a very common occurance. At least, not any more common than a bike messenger getting axed. And you still don't have to pay the sandal anything at all, nor even tip it.

The drone won't get hacked "in the nice AAA zones"? Where you're so concerned about data security that you're putting something on an optical chip and physically transporting it so that it doesn't get intercepted on the Matrix by hackers?

I kind of think of the sandal as being used more like a fed x carrier, with a fixed route/ zone of operation. And taking it's items back to a central processing area (that's how the hermes/sandal combo seems to be described.)
I tend to think that bikes can be useful to runners. That's why I started the post if you think I'm fixated on them, then stop reading the thread.
Drones can be hacked and tracked and need constant fuel and maintenance costs.
In addition to all the reasons I've mentioned in above posts, another two reasons runners might opt for bikes is belief... the terra first shaman listed in the sample characters probably uses a bike as her main transportation, or she's a poser. And physical fitness; while there aren't any rules for maintaining a body in peak physical condition... irl it takes constant training and working out... bikes make one of the best cardio exercises.

You can't hack a bike? This is 2070! Only bizarre luddites would ride a non wireless enabled bike...

Not that you're wrong per se. The only things you could do to a bicycle by hacking it would probably be change the radio station, or turn its anti-theft tracking system on or off. Though if it had an aggressive anti-theft system, like the zapper system, you could zap the rider... So I bet you could hack one, you just couldn't do much to it

So should we figure a bike gives a 2x or 3x modifier to speed, allowing Sprinting actions, or make it more like a set speed?

There might be a "safety feature" that slows it down to a stop if something goes wrong. Possibly also one to stop you from running red lights or the like, or if the cops want you to stop; there could even be a legal requirement that new bikes have them. Probably most serious bicyclists will have removed/disabled those, though.

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/reco...astest_Ever.htm

A good cyclist can beat 40 km/h, and a bicycle can squeeze through gaps smaller than a scooter (unlike a scooter, the widest part of a bicycle is generally the rider, and he's well above car-fender level). That's not even counting the augmented cyclist of the future, with reaction enhancers and synthacardium

Bicycles would be great in SR, IMO, but as far as "stats" go I don't think there's really much of anything necessary to stat out. Use Pilot Exotic (Bicycle) +Reaction for vehicle tests and Pilot Exotic (Bicycle) + Strength for Sprint tests Something like x3 speed wouldn't be unreasonable, I think, but be sure to make those Fatigue tests to keep it going for a significant amount of time....

DS

x3 speed perhaps for a bmx bike, x4 for a mountain bike, x more for road bikes and recumbents.
THe reason i'm thinking that it would be helpful to develop a set of rules is that there are so many different option for bikes esp when you consider add ons like shells, gyro stabilization, etc etc. Also, it's a flavor thing. In my town, (admittably, one of the most bike freindly places in the world,) the punks are far more into bikes than roller blades and boards. We have gangs (well more like clubs) that do bike jousting; we have punk rock girls called the Sprockettes doing synchronized bike dancing; Mt Bike Polo; Bike Frisbee. Etc Etc Etc.
A drone still gets stuck in traffic, bikes generally don't. That's when a bike is faster.
shooting the lock off a bike is great until it's super dikoted and ricochets that bullet right back at you.
And in a game where stealth is highly valued, bikes just beat out any type of motor vehicle in an urban environment.

I don't think we need ANOTHER damn exotic skill in Shadowrun >.< And I don't think a bike should count as a vehicle. I think riding a bike should be an Athletics test of the appropriate skill for what you're trying to do -- Running for riding fast, Gymnastics for doing tricks. It's less realistic, but should we force people to buy a new skill just to ride a bicycle? It's not like they're getting a lot of bang for their buck. If you forced people to buy Pilot Exotic for a bike, they'd just ride skates which require no new skills, unless they're mega bike enthusiasts... There may be times to indulge simulationism in SR4, but bicycles isn't one of them

I think its Pilot Groundcraft for Bikes if its any Pilot skill. But I'd be more inclined to go with the Athletics, Running test as well. We currently have a dwarf who uses a hoverboard (modified to x3 speed... originally was x2 speed), and its just used as a running test.

I'd tend to go with athletics, but that's a skill group, not an individual skill. Perhaps it's own skill in the athletics skill group, or, more likely, not require any skill for it at all, but use the other skills to do things.

...yeah that's what they even tell me in RL today. However I get to work faster than by transit, don't have to pay for parking, don't have to pay sky high insurance premiums, don't have to take it into the shop when something goes wrong because everything is tied into some proprietary computer chip, don't have to sit in traffic jams, and don't have to fret over the ever increasing cost of filling the tank.

Yeah, there's something to be said for a bit of "Luddite-ism" now and then.

....a wireless enabled bicycle? Now I find that an odd concept indeed, even in 2070.

OMG WHERE DO YOU LIVE

For most people the defaults should work fine anyway. It also gives you the opportunity to take Incompetent (Pilot Exotic Vehicle: Bike), unless of course you just rule that "Pilot Ground Craft" doesn't specify that it only applies to powered ground craft, and that the "Bike" specialization doesn't have to mean "motorbike".

Dude. They have wireless enabled socks if you want them. They'll beam information on your foot temperature, moisture, and odor level directly to your brain. The question in SR4 isn't "what things are wireless," the question is "what things aren't wireless?" It would be hard to find a bike that didn't come with some wireless features. Especially because bikes can power themselves very easily with kinetic power cells, and good old fashioned pedaling. Now, you might turn your bike's wireless functionality off. But you'd need to go dumpster diving in a pretty old trash pile to find one non wireless.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/8269/

Or to the olfactory booster of that street sam in the book who buys used women's toe socks.