Dumpshock Forums > Player questions I cannot answer

swirler

Apr 10 2008, 04:02 PM

Okay so I figure I know the SR world pretty well, but sometimes some things I just can't answer, partly because well the question, IMHO doesn't really matter, or is not a pressing issue. Some people think too much. I'm not saying that thinking is bad, I'm just saying too much focus can be distracting. Sometimes you have to just "go along with it"

Anywho my problem is this. One of my players in the game I will be starting soon says there are certain things he can't understand about the SR world. Keep in mind, his perspective on D&D and Rogues is that if they were greedy or selfish enough to be rogues they would never go anywhere near traps or dungeons because they are too dangerous.

I will post a conversation we had about his questions. Maybe someone can help me with answers for him Player: Shadowrun is going to be a very difficult place to live through criminal endeavors.

[ Spoiler ]

Malicant

Apr 10 2008, 04:20 PM

Your player needs his cranium drilled

Nightwalker450

Apr 10 2008, 04:29 PM

Wow... Anyways money is usually passed through shadow accounts. Where they can launder the money and make it really difficult to trace. As well your money is usually kept in overseas accounts, or other semi-legit accounts so you won't have to pay the taxes on ill-gotten gains. Credsticks can be transferred between credsticks without ever seeing the internets at large for quite some time. Squatter and Street definately don't have taxes to pay, and even some Lower lifestyles, might not require anything than a stable account to get their money from you. (Many people manage to live in the US now and manage to avoid being flagged as "SINless") Also any of these can be put onto a Fake SIN and made harder to trace.

As to the extra-territorality I believe it was so they could raise their own private armies. Otherwise they are very limited in what they can have for security, but to actually have their own armed military force that is HIGHLY illeagle in modern day. So basically they went from having guns, to having artillary not just gaining a second gun.

EDIT: And a cranium drill could help as well, I second that.

Ed_209a

Apr 10 2008, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (swirler @ Apr 10 2008, 12:02 PM)

Sometimes you have to just "go along with it"

The only way I can get my brain around it is that somehow, forensic science stalled around 1995, while biotech in general advanced by leaps and bounds. Similarly, law enforcement is incompetent when they aren't apathetic, and somehow this didn't lead to a general breakdown in civil order.

The game would be so tedious if you had to account for every skin flake, microdroplet of blood, and shadowy transaction.

Prime Mover

Apr 10 2008, 04:41 PM

Wow hehe first off I'll 3rd the drill idea. Money bits been covered in post above, black market and black op certified cred is'nt really money its a promise for money, like bearer bonds. (whoever has them owns them)

Onto military helping with transport during upheavals. Did you see what happened in New Orleans, now imagine a 4th of world dead or dieing, people turning into metahumans, return of magic, etc.... Now how bad was NO screwed up, imagine that kind of chaos in hundreds,thousands of cities. Govt was falling apart under the weight of repeated nationwide crisis and disaster. Giving the corps autonomy took some of strain off of Govt's shoulders giving corps responsibility for there employees and home turf.

Blade

Apr 10 2008, 04:42 PM

I don't think extraterritoriality really was something that appeared overnight, same with corporate armies.

The way I see it, the Seretech decision was just a discreet court decision (probably heavily influenced by corporate lobbies) that allowed corporations a limited use of force on the U.S.A territory, in some circumstances. It wasn't a license to have a full blown army and use it at will, but a first and definite step in that direction.

DTFarstar

Apr 10 2008, 04:51 PM

Yeah, stress that in todays world the government might look askance at a corp that was stockpiling heavy munitions and lethal only weapons for it's highly(greater than army) trained security force when all that is going on is some research. I mean, yeah, you can have heavy security at a nuclear plant, but they wanted nuclear plant security everywhere and insane security at the nuclear plant. I mean at a nuclear plant today, I could see top level security at most being some guys in body armor with SMGs or maybe an assault rifle or three in a locked case. They want turret mounted weapons, shoot on site for any non-authorized personnel, biological warfare releasable through the vents, and everything else you can think of. I think the main reason they gave them extra-territoriality is for two reasons. The first being that the governments had enough problems and were incapable of really enforcing anything they did say if they tried to restrict the corps. The second being the corps were like "Listen, we are doing this and no we don't give a damn what you say." So, the governments basically had 3 choices, 1. Try to stop them, and with everything else going on they just did not have the manpower. 2. Approve it and take the bad PR for changing policy especially to something this extreme. 3. Give them autonomy so as to distance yourself politically from the fallout of the potential innocent slaughter from all those munitions. They chose to distance themselves rather than looking ineffectual or wishy-washy.

That is how I see it.

Chris

Wounded Ronin

Apr 10 2008, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Apr 10 2008, 11:40 AM)

The only way I can get my brain around it is that somehow, forensic science stalled around 1995, while biotech in general advanced by leaps and bounds. Similarly, law enforcement is incompetent when they aren't apathetic, and somehow this didn't lead to a general breakdown in civil order.

The game would be so tedious if you had to account for every skin flake, microdroplet of blood, and shadowy transaction.

I'd just tell the player that the game takes place in the 80s. Done.

thiagão

Apr 10 2008, 05:00 PM

I think law enforcement in SR is not much diferent then is nowdays in here in Brazil. There's a mixture of imcopetence,lazyness, lack of resources and corruption, so they don´t give a damn if a kid in the barrens got killed or is selling drugs, but if he does that kind of shit in a rich area, they tend get a lot more resourceful and competent, specially if the media makes them look bad. So I guess in SR the police, if they want cacht a shadowrunner, will trace certified credsticks or use ritual sorcery to track down a suspect, but unless you commit a atrocity or atract a public autcry for your arrest (or death), you won´t get much heat from the cops.

DireRadiant

Apr 10 2008, 05:39 PM

Make a deal. If the player can explain why all the nonsensical stuff of the real world today is happening as entirely reasonable to you, then you get to explain your RPG world the same way to him.

cndblank

Apr 10 2008, 05:56 PM

On the forensics front, if you don't have fingerprints or DNA on record then you don't have much unless you have enough to use ritual sorcery.

I also let Bio Klean answer most of the fornesics questions.

And Bio Klean is the runners friend.

It takes nothing to rig the spraycan to act like a bug bomb and just keep spraying.

Someone gets hit then you stop the bleeding and drop a can.

By the time security gets some blood samples, they will be worthless.

Extraterritoriality means if you get caught then they can use their laws. It also means what is a crime in corp territory might not raise an eyebrow out side it.

It also means every time you cross a border then they have that much more paperwork if they want to get full cooperation from the local security.

Then it gets in to how good are relations between the local cops and other corporations. I mean if they arrest someone for some thing and it turns out that a Corp wants them extradite them then that is one thing. Also much of police work has been privatized and is little more than security guards so if it didn't happen on their turf then they are not going to spend much time hunting.

I wonder how much time Lone Star spends hunting perps wanted by Ares. Likely just enough to make it look good. I'm sure a Corp could "ask" a mayor or police chief to give it a priority but how much are the actual beat cop is going to worry about it. Especially when they know from experience that the Corp does very little to help them out. And is not above shielding their most valuable employees from investigation. The local police force also has to know that a megacorp can whip up any evidence they want. Might make them a little jaundice bout running down a Corp's perp.

The other big question is how much is the Corp going to want to own up to the fact someone just successfully ran them and got a way with something hot.

swirler

Apr 10 2008, 05:57 PM

thanks all for your suggestions
especially the cranial drill
lol
jk!

the thing about the player as a person is, some times he has this dogged determination that things have to "make sense" to a very narrow and specific view about what is real and what is and is not possible. Then in the next breath talk about something that is both fictitious and unbelievable as if it's perfectly fine.

MarCazm

Apr 10 2008, 05:58 PM

If the player argues to much, let him run the game so he can see how it is on the "other side".

Maybe he quits babblin' and accept the rules as they are instead of makin' it to much complicated to play with.

Some don't see the difference between reality and fiction.

swirler

Apr 10 2008, 06:01 PM

QUOTE (cndblank @ Apr 10 2008, 11:56 AM)

The other big question is how much is the Corp going to want to own up to the fact someone just successfully ran them and got a way with something hot.

good point, forgot about that

swirler

Apr 10 2008, 06:04 PM

QUOTE (MarCazm @ Apr 10 2008, 11:58 AM)

If the player argues to much, let him run the game so he can see how it is on the "other side".

Maybe he quits babblin' and accept the rules as they are instead of makin' it to much complicated to play with.

Some don't see the difference between reality and fiction.

naw it wouldn't matter, I've played in his games.

nathanross

Apr 10 2008, 06:27 PM

There are a number of futuristic assumptions that Shadowrun fluff makes that may not always be true or common sense.

Extraterritoriality and the Japanacorps:
In the 80s there was a reverance and fear of the Japanese corporations that has all but disappeared since the Japanese bubble burst. They are still a very powerful economic force, but not at all like it was at the end of the 80s. Extraterritoriality is also something that is the foundation of the SR: Corporations have the same power of governments. It is because of the megacorps that we are shadowrunners. Simple as that. Why it all happened or whether is should have happened or not is completely irrelevant.

Crime and Law Enforcement:
Lone Star is a corporation. This means its primary focus is not on the safety and security of those it protects, their safety is merely a result. Lone Stars number 1 is it's own bottom line. The original reason that Lone Star was hired was to cut costs, not because they are better (though they very well may be). The Lone Star/Knight Errant battle for the Metroplex law enforcement contract may motivate them a bit more, but it wont change things too much. If the runners make too big a splash and get too high a public awareness, though, the Star and K-E both will pull out all the stops to put them behind bars just for the PR it would bring.

Money:
This is something that is completely ignored in SR just because it would be a huge headache to always keep track of where you keep it. Some aspects to consider:

Certified Credsticks: electronic cahsiers check, can be used like cash a little at a time. Keep em on a necklace around your neck or under your mattress (aka Self banking)
Shadow banks: the other option. You can give your money to any syndicate to keep safe and or launder, but it will cost at least 10% of whatever you earn. Also, don't backstab your banker as they have all your money.
Legit: sure, if you have a front company or some fake source of income, you can keep your goods at a normal bank, and pay taxes on it.
Property: Rent/Squat/Steal. You can try and go legit, but we runners usually just rent an apartment under a fake SIN in a low end part of town where you aren't hassled often. Of course, there is always the lawless barrens to set up a high end squat in.

You must also remember that the most important thing about Shadowrun is the shadows. We have employment because we are skilled and necessary as deniable assets. We are the designated pawns in a constant battle between corporations/syndicates/dragons/metaplanar entities/you name it. If they have money, we will do what they need done without them having to get their hands dirty. They NEED us. We exist within the cracks that they create. We run through the shadows they cast. We are Shadowrunners!

masterofm

Apr 10 2008, 07:01 PM

If he wants to make sense of magic and people turning into crazy creatures? I mean why not try and make sense of the biological structure of giants in D&D? I mean theoretically any mammal that large would be unable to move when on land. Sometimes you just have to accept it.

For one thing your player has not read about the history of the game so he gets a minus right there. You can launder electronic money just as easily as you can launder paper money. I'm sorry there is a lot of problems that people are experiencing with electronic fraud. Personally I think if he does not read the history he does not get to comment or ask questions. *edit* Has your friend ever herd of FTZ/EPZ's? I think it's a pretty good real world situation where companies get a warm and fuzzy feeling when they hear it (Free trade zone/Export processing zone.) *edit*

For any questions he has just answer "MAGIC." Make sure you say it really loud and then if he tries to say anything just say "MAGIC" again until he either stops asking questions, or goes and reads the history of the game.

Cheops

Apr 10 2008, 07:04 PM

The main reason why a Corporation would want extraterritoriality is not for protection -- it's for tax and labor laws.

Most developed countries also have very liberal human and workers' rights laws and protections. For instance, right now in the USA/Canada it is illegal for management of a company to try and block a union from forming. There are some loop holes and dirty tricks that management can and usually does try to prevent unionization but courts tend to come down fairly hard on that sort of behaviour. Now if the corporation is its own country it gets to make the laws. No unions. No workers' rights. Most don't even extend the right of Habeus Corpus on people within their secure areas. Basically the way that things work in Shadowrun is Economic Feudalism where vassalage (contractual obligations) determines what rights each person has. A wage slave is a essentially a serf and a mid-level manager could be seen as a knight or squire going all the way up to the CEO/Emperor at the top who reigns at the whims of a group of powerful dukes/kings/princes/whatever (Board of Directors).

The other major thing is taxes. If you have a mall with your Aztech logo bright and shiny and visible everyone in that mall is now on Aztech soil. Which means they are taxed just like a citizen of Aztech would be taxed. Now let's say that the host country is UCAS and it has a 5% sales tax on goods and services purchased by consumers and a 5% tax on supplies involved in the production of those goods and services. The market raises its prices on the goods by (1.05)(1.05). This is the normal price that consumers pay in the UCAS. But as soon as they step into the mall they are taxed at Azzie rate. Aztechnology doesn't want to undercut the competition in the UCAS (especially its stores that aren't extraterritorial) so they also mark their prices up to reflect the taxes. But they don't have to pay them to the UCAS -- it stays "above the line." This neat little trick also means that no Extraterritorial Corporation pays ANY income taxes.

Nightwalker450

Apr 10 2008, 07:04 PM

QUOTE (masterofm @ Apr 10 2008, 02:01 PM)

For any questions he has just answer "MAGIC." Make sure you say it really loud and then if he tries to say anything just say "MAGIC" again until he either stops asking questions, or goes and reads the history of the game.

Just had to post a comment from my Linkshell last night on FFXI, I can't remember the conversation, but this was the reply. My first thought was Shadowrun. (For those used to reading ascii art)

"It's Magic O(oO)o"

I think this is going to be part of my signature now...

O'Donnell Heir

Apr 10 2008, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (cndblank @ Apr 10 2008, 11:56 AM)

On the forensics front, if you don't have fingerprints or DNA on record then you don't have much unless you have enough to use ritual sorcery.

True dat. The Corps wouldn't send cops after you anyways. First off, they just got hit, which means a shadowrun. You can't admit to being hit by runners, because then you start making accusations in the corporate court, whether you actually voice them or not. So, instead, they use their own teams, try to figure out what they hit, who they are, and who hired them. A Cop can only kill you or arrest you, a Corp can do so much worse. If they feel adventurous they might even hire you for a return hit on whoever hired you.

As to rewards, you can use your fake SINs to set up a bank account, simply use credsticks, take it in trade, or take cash and hide it in your pillow. Paper trails are kind of a joke. First off, if anyone really wants to find you, they wouldn't have to follow paper, and they'll find you no matter how well you try to hide (Wireless comlinks and GPS just means you're always connected to something).

Taxes? Half the known world doesn't have citizenship because the head honchos of the world decided that Metahumans aren't citizens or people for a while, sure they've reversed it since, but not before the damage was done. Thanks to that debacle the only taxes most people have to spend is sales tax. You might be surprised (Unless you live in the south) how many people today have bank accounts and credit cards and don't pay taxes because they aren't citizens. No one's even called them on the lack of tax information at the banks because it's good capitol for them to use, and they certainly don't care if you file your 10W40s or not.

swirler

Apr 10 2008, 08:15 PM

I think his main question about the extra-territorailty wasnt why corps would want it so much as "why would governments allow it?"

DTFarstar answered that pretty well, but if anyone else has more on that I'd appreciate.

and thanks everyone for what You've had so far. I know the game and love it, but sometimes things I have and "get" in my head are hard to put into words so it's nice to get everyone else's take on it also.

cndblank

Apr 10 2008, 08:31 PM

It has also been pointed out that by the time a runner has his credit nicely laundered and where he can reach it, he has already paid about what he would have paid in taxes if he was a solid citizen (say 20 to 40% depending on how clean he wants his cred).

Sames goes for most property and services.

After making special arrangement for water and waste disposal, plus bribes for the illegal connection to the electric grid, a matrix connection, and to the local gang to keep their mouths shut and pass the word if anyone come sniffing around about you....

And keeping a fake sin or three up and current is also costly.

So the answer to your friend is that runner spend a lot of cred to stay out of the light. And the corporations and criminal organizations (if there is a difference) have very good reasons to make sure that the shadows exist despite the best efforts of the national goverments.

As soon as you make something illegal someone will be selling it on the black market.

True now and true in 60 years.

Eyeless Blond

Apr 10 2008, 08:51 PM

One reason why art theft is so big these days (other than ID theft it's one of the fastest-growing crimes IIRC) is because they use the stolen art as currency, ways to trade large values between gangs and cartels. Most of the "legit" money transfers tend to be smaller amounts, that are harder to track and less worth the effort.

There was an interesting take on counterfeiting a few weeks ago that you might want to take a look at too.

swirler

Apr 10 2008, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Apr 10 2008, 02:51 PM)

There was an interesting take on counterfeiting a few weeks ago that you might want to take a look at too.

do you have a link for it?

Wounded Ronin

Apr 10 2008, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 10 2008, 01:27 PM)

There are a number of futuristic assumptions that Shadowrun fluff makes that may not always be true or common sense.

Extraterritoriality and the Japanacorps:
In the 80s there was a reverance and fear of the Japanese corporations that has all but disappeared since the Japanese bubble burst. They are still a very powerful economic force, but not at all like it was at the end of the 80s. Extraterritoriality is also something that is the foundation of the SR: Corporations have the same power of governments. It is because of the megacorps that we are shadowrunners. Simple as that. Why it all happened or whether is should have happened or not is completely irrelevant.

This is really key. It's important to have people watch 80s movies while listening to the recorded screams of simultaneously laid off and high Detroit auto workers so that they can grasp this concept.

masterofm

Apr 10 2008, 09:18 PM

Free Trade Zones or Export Processing Zones are basically places in the world today where developing nations or poor nations will create one of these zones. A company is basically given amnesty towards taxes and government regulation (if there actually is any.) In turn the company provides jobs and if people are employed it creates a little bit more money to enter the country. If the contract runs out and the government wants the company to start paying taxes most companies will threaten to leave thus creating massive unemployment and they will just leave to go to another EPZ. The world right now in RL does not play nicety nice and the way I see SR is that when America collapsed they were not the only ones in a heap o' trouble. Magic starts happening and meta humans begin springing up, so every country has their own problems to deal with not just the US. In a time like this what would really be able to survive a time of extreme instability. Multi-national Corporations. People still need to buy things and still need jobs. Now that the governments are basically useless (and pretty much all government data is pretty much gone) the corporations are the ones people have to turn to. They have zero accountability, and if people want to protest a corp can always just take their factories somewhere else and destroy the lives of thousands. The whole world is basically an EPZ at this point since there is really not a strong enough power to enforce it.

nathanross

Apr 10 2008, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (swirler @ Apr 10 2008, 04:15 PM)

I think his main question about the extra-territorailty wasnt why corps would want it so much as "why would governments allow it?"

DTFarstar answered that pretty well, but if anyone else has more on that I'd appreciate.

Remember that people are still people, even in 70 years (hard to believe I know). And as we know of people, everyone has a price. In the Shiawase case, they had all the pieces in place, and all that was left was enough leverage in the right place. So they grease up the justices and now all corps have a precedent for extraterritorial status. From there it is just a domino effect.

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 10 2008, 04:59 PM)

This is really key. It's important to have people watch 80s movies while listening to the recorded screams of simultaneously laid off and high Detroit auto workers so that they can grasp this concept.

Shadowrun is very much a result of the 80's. Wonded, the Japanacorps are what stick out in my mind, but what other 80s assumptions have defined the setting? You are truly the expert!

I actually think the whole Dystopian setting is very Japanese.

Blade

Apr 11 2008, 12:20 PM

Sure, if a corp (or even LS) spend enough time and money, they will eventually find the runners. If the runners have botched the job, they can even find them easily. But what will the corp get?
If anything was stolen, chances are that the runners have already given it to their employer. In other cases, there's nothing they can get. Most of the time they'll know (or have a good idea of) which corp had it done, but they won't have anything to prove it and getting hold of the runners won't help because that's the entire reason why runner exists. They are deniable assets, and it's impossible to prove they were hired by anyone to do what they did.

So most of the time, if the runners didn't do too much collateral damage (killing people and destroying buildings) corps will stop chasing the runners as soon as the run is over. There might be a few exceptions: publicity, personal vendetta and some other special cases. But most of the time they'll just don't care and just get your prints and DNA to add you to their database of known runners.

Ryu

Apr 11 2008, 01:04 PM

Lonestar (or another security provider) is in charge of finding criminals. Who will cooperate with Lonestar? The employer of the runners won´t, and even the target may not. Data needed to follow the runners (including transaction data) is "owned" by a multitude of entities. Any inconsistency has to be figured out by LS. If LS says "that info has to be wrong", they only get the answer "thats what we have. Go away now". Then you add in false fronts, multiple IDs used for commiting the crimes (and IDs you only use online can deviate GREATLY from reality), and plain-old lies.

Blade

Apr 11 2008, 01:09 PM

And Lonestar won't even look for the runners if the corp doesn't lay charges against them.

swirler

Apr 11 2008, 03:36 PM

QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 10 2008, 03:24 PM)

I actually think the whole Dystopian setting is very Japanese.

true, just look at Bladerunner
Japan is all over the place.
In the Torg books I thought "Nippontech" was as much or more dystopian than the "Cyberpapacy" was
granted I never got to play Torg but looked through the books some

mrslamm0

Apr 11 2008, 04:53 PM

LOL "It's Magic" I like that im going to have to borrow that when i'm GMing Shadowrun.
Honestly like it was mentioned above that they didnt read the history but ive found if you try to make RPG's too realistic IMO you might as well just play ("Your Job" The RPG). But the skull drill idea works too =)

Meh I had a chance to play TORG a few times didn't much care for the whole system really specially the card combat. "Oh we have the advantage on our enemy..wait what? how do they get to go first we are faster and have a clear advantage sorta thing."

-Slamm-0!

DocTaotsu

Apr 12 2008, 12:30 AM

*digs around for it. "
Aha!

*whacks the "I Believe!" button*

Divine Virus

Apr 13 2008, 01:31 AM

I think what you really need to keep in mind for this game is that the Corporations NEED shadowrunners. A few people have already made this point, but I want to reiterate it. Corporations understand that runs are just business, and 9 out of 10 times, chasing a runner isn't going to accomplish anything. Plus, there is the added fact, that all the corporate underlings will try to hide that the run took place, cause getting stolen from (or whatever) reflects poorly on you. Every step of the corporate hierarchy, each employee is going to run a little program in his head.

Question 1: Can I be blamed for this (Yes/No)?
If No: Why are you even thinking about it, then?
If Yes: Proceed to Question 2

Question 2: Can I blame someone else?(Yes/No)?
If Yes: Then blame them, already!
If No: Proceed to Question 3

Question 3: Can I hide the evidence (Yes/No)?
If Yes: Then hide it, nothing to worry about.
If No: Proceed to Question 4

Question 4: Are I sure you can't blame someone else? Maybe falsify and plant some evidence on Joe, who works three cubicles over. He always was a jerk to me, anyways. (Yes/No)
If Yes: Hurry up and do it then, the boss is coming!
If No: Wash you hands of as much responsability as possible, then pass it off to a superior. Alternatively, if it is really important, HIDE!

This kind of "save-your-own-neck" morality give the runners lots of time to make a clean escape, and most times they won't even be pursued.
And if you are... well, with enough time and money (and usually not alot of either) anyone can be found. No matter who you are, or where you go, there is no true safety.

The point is, no one really cares about what runners did it, anyone more then you would care about what particular car was used for a getaway. Runners are just disposable tools. Shadowrunners live because no one cares enough about them to kill them. If anyone does care enough, they die. Pure and simple.

As for forensics, I like to assume that there is just sufficient counter-tech protecting runners.

For example, in my games, I house rule that there is a simple and cheap treatment that is officially for "helping to prevent skin cancer," but as a "side effect" it also causes the DNA in dead and doomed skin cells to deteriorate rapidly. It is included in most lifesyles. All armours have an internal layer designed to "staunch bleeding" which really serves to prevent took much blood splatter from escaping. To prevent prints, there are basic dietary supplements which change the kind of oil your skin secretes, only slightly, causing prints to be far harder to pick up (this costs extra, and can be a hassle for biometric scanners). You can get gloves that don't inhibit skinlink, you can use skinlink without leaving prints. Bioware for the salivary glands and bone marrow to make your saliva, lymph, and blood useless (restricted as hell, and expensive!). Hairdye which, again as a "side effect" just happens to erase anything identifiable in you hair (though they would know which dye you used).

Also, keep in mind that databases, in some ways, such. Corporations don't share information in the future. Lets say your Knight Errent and you know you know the runners used a LoneStar iBall drone. You think LoneStar is going to give Knight Errant a list of customers who bought an iBall recently? Assuming the deal wasn't done on the black market, anyways? They wouldn't even ask. If it was absolutely important, they would probably rather higher runners themselves to do an information extraction run, then ask nicely.

Shadowrun's corps are a pit of vipers.

kzt

Apr 13 2008, 06:11 AM

And if your runs don't involve big explosions, multiple dead bodies and large fires it's a lot easier for the target to cover everything up. Having 60 firemen see the crime scene tends to make it hard to pretend that nothing happened when the 200 cops show up to "protect the firemen", which tends to result in the corp's regional VP and his personal troubleshooters showing up.

Fortune

Apr 13 2008, 06:16 AM

And if your runs don't involve big explosions, multiple dead bodies and large fires, you ain't doing it right.

kzt

Apr 13 2008, 06:46 AM

Not that blowing shit up isn't fun, but explosives are expensive, ammo is expensive, new IDs are expensive, medical attention is expensive. And, in most places, each firefight tends to greatly increase the odds of getting in another firefight shortly, one with worse odds. Unless the job is to blow the place up all you do is reduce your profit if you have to fight anyone.

Fortune

Apr 13 2008, 06:52 AM

That's why you charge the big bucks.

Crusher Bob

Apr 13 2008, 07:13 AM

Remember that part of setting up your SR game has to discussing what sort of game you want to have with your players.

If they are, in part, in it to have cool Heat/Ronin/Matrix style gunfights, you can hardly bring the whole might of the man down on them ever time they get into a big gunfight. Unless a whole passel 'o cops showing is and excuse for another big gunfight, of course.

Your players probably don't want to play forensic accounting run, so having them arrested for tax evasion when they fail to pay income tax on their ill gotten gains is probably right out too.

Does your group derive enjoyment from the players loving descriptions of their characters paranoid defenses, or do they not want to deal with that sort of thing?

Will the characters suffer some horrible fate if they mind control a bunch of nuns into suicide bombing ye local orphanage, or not?

So, unless you really want to model CSI: 2070, the runners probably shouldn't have to worry about every little skin flake they leave behind. If you and your players want to have a CSI like theme in your game, then make sure all the players know about it before hand, and what the common fallouts of this game-thread will be.

Ice Hammer

Apr 13 2008, 04:22 PM

QUOTE (Divine Virus @ Apr 12 2008, 09:31 PM)

Also, keep in mind that databases, in some ways, such. Corporations don't share information in the future. Lets say your Knight Errent and you know you know the runners used a LoneStar iBall drone. You think LoneStar is going to give Knight Errant a list of customers who bought an iBall recently? Assuming the deal wasn't done on the black market, anyways? They wouldn't even ask. If it was absolutely important, they would probably rather higher runners themselves to do an information extraction run, then ask nicely.

Shadowrun's corps are a pit of vipers.

Corporations will always employee runners, but at the same time, they have to have a system in place to try to aprehend those that choose to hit their own facilities. Not doing so would only encourage people to hit their facilities if they didn't fear some sort of reprisal. My opinion on it would be that the Corporations that have extraterritorial rights will also have extradition agreements with Lone Star, so that, once a run is committed against a facility, than the Corporation will issue a warrant for those responsible. The warrant could just be issued for John/Jane Doe and with their biometric information (if any), until such time that additional information could be found to help 'fill in the blanks.' If, in the future, Lone Star picks up the runners for something unrelated, than, the Corporation will be assured that once they have served their time for that crime or crimes, than they would be turned over to the Corporation for additional criminal prosecution. The Corporations would not have to cooperate with Lone Star in the investigation process simply because any crimes that happened on their property is for them alone to investigate. In fact, I would assume any corporate warrants would be sealed, so that the details about the crimes would not be released to the public, to ensure the protection of corporate interests and corporate secrets.

nathanross

Apr 13 2008, 08:19 PM

Very true Ice Hammer. In fact there is some fluff in one of the SR books about a Doc Wagon team who hauled off some runners, and he knew the corp would be filing Extradition papers within minutes, but he wanted to save their life anyways. This also begs the question, what do the corps do when they get the runners back (assuming the loot is already gone)?

I prefer the cranial bomb/favors approach. Unless they personally pissed someone high up off, they should come out with their life (just not all their freedom).