Simple really... If a rigger (by which I principally mean someone with a VCR) goes limp when they jump into a drone/vehicle, does this mean a rigger falls off their bike if they try to rig it?

They are -6 dice for the check you call for to see if they fall off after failing piloting check.

Velcro and seatbelts are useful.

And you can also think of it as the rigger being the horse and the rider is his own self. The rigger is probably going to make an effort to drive in such as way as to not have his own body fall off himself. When I give my kids piggy back rides they rarely fall off when they fall asleep because I'm making the effort to not drop them.

I think you could easily gin up some rules for a gecko tape harness that keeps you stuck to the back of the bike no matter what. Or just buy gecko tape gloves, really.

So the suggestion is just to tape the rider to the bike?

staples or glue would work just as well, too, if tape is unavailable.

I'll just have to persuade the player to take a detachable nail-gun hand, so he can affix himself to his racing bike, without risking falling off.

Wouldn't the gyro mod take care of this by keeping the bike level.

Rigger 3 has a gyroscope add-in (or you can get a side-car) which allows you to do this. If you're not using that book, the manual doesn't specify any penalty to I assume none. There are plenty of other threads on the real life mechanics of this, but I'd just assume the gyroscope is built in, but glossed over from a rules perspective.

If the rigger is rigging, jumps into, the bike they are physically riding I really wouldn't worry about the falling off part so much. They are in effect carrying themselves around. Hopefully they will be careful with themselves.

In general I wouldn't be concerned with this overly much, unless there's some kind of glitch on some other test, then falling off the bike becomes a great option.

Nowe, for motorcycles driving themselves... e.g. pilot programs.. See Arsenal p 103

"Note that motorcycles are not capable of driving themselves
unless they have the gyro stabilization modifi cation (p. 140)."

Arsenal p 140

"Motorcycle Gyro Stabilization (Standard, Motorcycles
Only): Th anks to technology, your bike no longer crashes to the
ground when you forget to employ the kickstand. With motorbike
gyro stabilization, the motorcycle will stay upright in all
but the worst conditions. In cases where a Handling failure may
bring about a motorcycle crash, add 2 to the vehicle’s Handling
to represent the gyro stabilization’s assistance in keeping the
rider upright."

Bikes don't need extra gyros to keep them "level" (they have big, fast-spinning wheels for that) and they need to be "unlevel" to corner... I don't *think* the centripetal force of the bike seat has enough vertical component to keep the out-of-body rigger from flopping off.

Nails. It's the only sane answer. No need for a whole detachable cyberhand, just keep the NG in the top box...

Well, considering Combat Cycle is a major sporting event where Combat Riggers on Motorbikes duel it out constantly, I'm sure there's gear abounding to allow for this.

For one thing, I picture armoured boots that resemble ski boots that'll hook up to the frame.

More will come as I think on them...

I was familiar with the gyro stabilisation modification, although I can't off hand remember whether my player invested in it for his racing bike.

I was mostly wondering whether it would be possible for a rigger body to remain astride a bike, considering that the fluff describes full VR users as going limp, and I have a hard time seeing someone entirely limp staying on a bike.

i had this very same discussion a few months ago on a german shadowrun board . . in the end we more or less decided that it was the power of handwavium holding the driver up . . the argument of combat bikers did come up, but the only real fluff description i ever found for combatbiking . . for rigged biking at all . . was the one novel with winger and rose and in that book it seemed as if they were not really jumped in, but about half and half . . additionally, their legs were held onto the bike by metal clamps or something like that . .

Handwavium... I was hoping to avoid that.

How about this... IIRC the ASIST interface paralyses the body. Consider that entering VR does not make a hacker or a rigger go limp, but rather rigid. Riggers would not fall out of the seats, and hackers/deckers could be used as battering rams

Of course, they might wake up with a bit of a cramp, and a headache in the case of the bettering ram!

*shrugs*
no real ruling, only limited at best fluff, so handwavium will have to do i'm afraid . . if you interpret asist like that, then that's one form of handwavium or is it not?

Please think about this for a minute. You know that the very big thing in front of you on a bike is your fuel tank right? Do you really want to be pounding nails through it? Also, since bikes are very minimalistic, aside from the body panels (which are structurally very weak), you really dont want to be pounding nails through your chassis (aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber do not become more structurally sound with nails in the mix).

And as for the gyro, it enables the bike to lean, it does not keep the rider on. You will need some kind of harness affixing you to the bike for that.

leg-clamps at least, chest-clamps with some i'd say . . and yes, we stumbled upon the problem of gyroscopes too back then . .
we kinda thought the gyro's would be computer-manipulated to make the bike lean into the right direction at the appropriate time in the correct angle . . and then you'd fall off again, because the frigging bike is leaning to one side and your body follows just one urge . . inertia and gravitation . .

Fuel tanks are ferrous, magnets stick to them. (They even have magnetic tank bags). Just have the rigger have a couple speaker magnets in his jacket that stick him to the fuel tank and you're good to go. Or just assume that the gyro-stabilization comes with a seatbelt like system to keep a rigger attached.

Or, just go with the fluff that the riggers CAN move their bodies, just not very well or quick. But if its in regards to piloting the bike they are rigging, I'd think it would coincide and that the ASSIST/Control Rig might even have said functionality built it that allows them to move their body to keep balance for the bike.

I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have made my facetiousness a little more obvious... Better?



Yes... that was indeed my attempt at handwavium that could conceivably be overlooked or accepted by picky players.

Although I could accept Tarantula's limited mobility fluff as well.

I have to throw this on to whatever else has been said quickly: it depends heavily on the type of bike. A dirtbke, you'd go down, a rice rocket, you'd stay on, and a hog you'd stay on.

And as mentioned before, when you're riding a bike, your "steering" is about 90% your body, 9% steering with the front wheel, and 1% road.

I've been riding motorcycles for about 20 years now (logging a good 10K miles a year) and upon reading htis thread, I'd have to say that something like this ASIST idea is about the only plausible way a rigger motorcyclist is going to stay mounted on his motorcycle through ANY kind of maneuvering, including jsut taking a corner at 10 MPH.

When riding a motorcycle you aren't jsut sitting on it and steering with your arms and working levers with your feet. A good 80-90 percent of steering a motorcycle is using your body: leaning, pressing, even jsut small motions changing the balance. At any kind of speed you are having to compensate for the wind. On a motorcycle, you truly become one with the vehicle. This is why it's such a rush to ride. It's sort of like flying, except, under most circumstances, you stay on the ground. This is why your body is so tired after riding for a few hours. Riding a motorcycle is like a real low aerobics/ isometric workout.

Now, there are two options as I see it:

Option 1. An ASIST created especially for motorcycles that actually controls the rigger's body and has it lean and do the things it takes to properly maneuver... sorta like a meat puppet. A computer controlled body that will lean into the wind, hold onto the bike with his hands and legs and keep his head upright, while leaning out knees for fast curves and literally throwing his body around as the case merits. The added gyroscopes could well make the handling even better.

Option 2. The rider literally straps himself to the vehicle: legs, feet, arms, torso and with some sort of neck brace, and the gyroscopes run under the computer do it all. At any kind of speed, without a major wind faring, the wind will want to jsut rip you off hte back of the bike, as anyone that had ridden on the highway in the driver's position doing over 65mph can attest to. Try going over 100 sometime. The increase feels geometrical in progression. (Don't get me started on movies that have the hero riding at more than 25-30 mph without eyewear. You CAN NOT keep your eyes open and if you could, they'd be useless from drying out and/or tearing up so bad! Sorry, pet peeve that takes me right out of the suspension of disbelief.)


Now, all things said and done, either method would technically work. I personally believe that Option 1 would work "better." Not to mention, if I was a runner, I would definitely not wnat to be harnessed onto my open-air death machine. Hell, not even if I WASN'T a runner. If I need to jack out and dismount, I want to be able to be gone NOW! Also, everything that Option 1 requires is already part and parcel with the common tech in Shadowrun. Also, from a purely stylistic view, Option 1 is the most aesthetically pleasing. A person playing a Runner wants to be able to describe:

"Jack Flash slips out hte back door and slides onto his bike and jacks in. He starts her up and revs the engine a couple times before peeling off in the foggy Seatle night jsut as Lonestar exits the backdoor in pursuit, only to see the dark rider's taillight turning the corner."

How much lamer is:

"Jack Flash slips out hte back door and slides onto his bike, taking time to carefully velcro his legs down. He slips his boots into the restraining clips as he proceeds to inflate his neck harness from the built in pneumatics, fastens his 7 point body harness and adheres his sticky gloves to the handlebars. Just as he revs the engine he notices, via his sensors, that in the last minute, Lonestar has steathly surrounded he and his bike, their Predators all aimed at his head."

Yeah, give me Option 1 every time.

Vlad

I find it funny that I came up with that option simply because I do ride a motorcycle, and am fairly used to the needs of your body to ride one well. It was the only thing that made sense to me as far as the world goes for allowing motorcycles that are rigged and ridden at once.

Here's my take.

You can rig a motorcycle while you're riding it. This is because of the following reasons.

1. Before you jump in, you duck down as low as you can (or lean back if it's a chopper) and tense your muscles so you're more stable.
2. When jumped in, you "are" the bike, and can keep your body on board much the same way that a horse can help keep its rider from falling.
3. It's JUST FUCKING COOL!

Actually, I see no reason more important than #3.

and with the arsenal modifications, one can build the akira-bike, the tron-bike, the winger-special bike and bloody everything else one can imagine . . the spider-bike, the air-bike from one of the very first SR books . . New Seattle i think . . hover-bikes, walker-bikes(don't ask how that would work, i have no idea O.o) . . probably like T-Bob from MASK . . hmm . . aren't most vehicles from mask pretty much buildable now? O.o

How about they just automatically turn down the ASIST when you are jumped in a motorcycle?

A rigger doesn't usually engage in Cybercombat or Black Ice so they don't need the ASIST safety features of being totally limp.

Now you're speaking my language. I am actually for handwaving the details as well. Instead of a full VR dive (limp body and all) a semi-dive with -3 to physical actions, but 3IPs for driving.

but remembering that bike, i'm not really sure, if shadowrun would rule it as a bike and not a car with just 2 wheels *g*
but with the akira-bike, at least there would not be a problem with falling down, as the sides are enclosed and would prevent that . . you'd only have to deal with the changed physics of a limp body now weighting down one side instead of being evenly distributed in the middle . . but that's too much realism for me and if somebody starts about that i will gleefully take his character away and hand him a purely mediocre human character who can't do shit anyway *g*

First of all, I'm not a biker myself, although I am fairly sure that if you go limp you'll fall off a bike. Even in a car or a van you can fall over, hence the rigger cocoon mod.

I honestly want my player to be able to rig his bike. I do. I just also want to stay moderately in line with the fluff.

And technically it's very easy to fall off a horse too, unless you have a saddle with lots of support. Ask a jockey.

I personally like the side car with rigger cocoon myself. Solves the holding onto the bike part very easily.

WMS

Then rule that the ASSIST was designed with this in mind, and when it detects a rigger riding a bike that jumps into said bike, it allows partial control over the riggers body to the rigger to assist in the maneuvering of the bike.

I'd believe it, but for one small tidbit. If you look in your hymnal, you'll see that at every point it mentions going limp in VR, it also says "as if you were sleeping." People can sleep with tensed muscles, and can even sit up or stand while asleep. In fact, the stiffness some people feel in the morning is usually the result of having tensed muscles all night long. So, personally, I have no problem with a rigger on a bike.

The 'switch' that makes you go limp when you use ASIST could logically be changed to do whatever the hell else you want it to do, and instead of just cutting of the brain from the muscle response could jet its own muscle response down there. We know THATS possible because thats what skillwires do.

In the 'realistic world' that would give a bike a handling penalty because it needs to shuffle your weight around - because as you would be like a plank

But you could have a good compromise by letting him rig the bike, but only when he has skillwires with the pilot ground vehicles skillsoft (R1) running. Then the skillwires can just send the 'hold the hell on' part of the program into his muscles while he is off in rigger land. Say it's possible in this unique circumstance because 'holding on' doesn't really require his brains active participation and focus.

I think perhaps you (or whoever's character this is) should look into the Horseman from arsenal. Sounds a heck of a lot simpler and a very similar effect.

Interesting, I actually had the same thought last night. I think he'd fall off (I'm not gonna tell my GM thought though )

I think that's probably the direction I'm going in. I'll just have to insist that despite maintaining enough control over his body to ride, he still can't do other non-rigging stuff, such as turning in the saddle and shooting with his hand-held SMG, or directly rig other stuff and still ride. The alternative to that would be to have ASIST make someone rigid, as I and Aaron have now mentioned. That would also make people off in VR quite distinct from people off in Astral space.

As far as changing the Aurora for a Horseman, the background to his character is a speed freak go-ganger. Hence heavily tuned racing bikes are his thing, and he got into rigging in order to ride his bike better. I'm not really wanting to penalise him for his concept by demanding all sorts of extra crap like skill wires etc.

You don't even have to change the rules, just the fluff. Say that the "Motorcycle Gyro Stabilization" mod is actually a "Reverse-RAS Motorcycle Stabilization Interface." It does the same thing as the mechanics dictate--allows the motorcycle to be rigged, +2 to Handling on Crash tests--but the way it does it isn't by adding extra gyroscopes to the vehicle that motorcycles don't need, but by interfacing with the rigging body, causing it to lean and move with the turns.

That part is just software, BTW; what you're really paying for is the extra counterweights built into the vehicle, that can take the place of a metahuman driver and allow you to rig the motorcycle even when nobody is in the driver's seat.

I am not a rules authority on the Rigging rules - but is there some way of getting Rigging bonuses while driving in AR rather than full VR? Or do you have to go full sim to get all the neat stuff?

As another concept, you might want to think about going the "poor man's Rigger" by just using Wired Reflexes, AR, and some high skill ratings. You could get 3-4 IP, some nice heavy dice pools, and also use the extra IP for normal fighting as well. Personally, I see this as a better alternative, and a more "logical" choice for what a go-ganger would do. Seems way more "cool" to have a biker with super-fast reflexes and drives like a bat out of hell, than to have one who goes comepletely unconscious over his bike to accomplish the same thing. But that's just my take *shrug*

A speed freak wants to experience speed through a VR speedometer? If he's a true speed freak, he'll want to feel that speed, piloting with AR instead of VR ... and his bike will be red!

If it makes you feel any better, skillwires are arguably the most powerful piece of ware in the game.

also, older versions had a rule where you could do stuff in the real world while in VR, it just took some nasty modifiers because of it.

and the fluff at the start of SR3 talked about the decker not bothering to take the time to arrange the face into a "social" expression while jacked in, indicating that while your not aware of your real body to the same degree, one could still control it, if one wanted to.

as for moving while sleeping, talk to any person that have a habit of sleepwalking

'cause red uns go fasta!
but the akira bike is red too so meh *g*

But, a true Shadowrunner's bike is black.
(And full of Bondo.)

Vlad

bunda i says!
red uns go fasta and fasta is betta!
also: chamaeleon-effect paint, best of both worlds

Another possible solution is to use a modified rigger cocoon and keep the rigger on the bike that way. Think a bike more like Tron, completely enclosed and safe from harm. Hell, make it even more fun by removing manual controls and make it completely VCR controlled.

or as mentioned, the akira-bike . . which does come in red allready *g*

I think an electro-magnetic vest is a great idea! You can rig it to attach as soon as you jack in, and detach as soon as you jack out. This also satisfies Vlad's need for a cinematic escape scene...



Now that I think about it, this might be one of the few decent uses for magnetic cyberhands! A character with magnets in his hands, knees, and feet should be able to stay on a bike fairly well, even at high speeds, especially if he's in the full tuck position.

Looks like I have a new character concept to play with...

woudln't that gecko-stuff work too? and probably even better than the magnets?
but the magnetic west does sound like fun, indeed *g*
especially, if you can remote-controll it . . wanna make somebody look silly? switch it on while he's standing between his kitchen-utensils . . pans and pots and kettles and the like . .
wanna be really mean? wait untill he opens the drawer with the forks and knives *g*
or if you wanna get him in trouble, switch it off in an unconvenient moment so everything he stuck onto it so he would not have to carry it will fall down with a loud clattering noise ^^

I was looking for a fluff explanation, and that is rather a nice one.



That solution is rather more build point heavy, and I'm trying to discourage WR from being the must have 'ware which they currently are.