Ok, I'm still pretty new to this game--having only played the SR videogames before--and I have a couple questions about the spare clip weapon accessory.

First, when precisely do you have to buy this? I would assume anytime you want to have reloads on hand, you'd need to factor in the 5 cost of the clips--but what about weapons that are belt-feed or muzzle-loading?

I've been working up a character that uses a Yamaha Sakura Fubiki, so I have the double issue of a muzzle-loading weapon with 4 separate muzzle tubes--and no idea what my costs for spare ammunition are.

Does my character just carry their spare ammo around in a bag, and pull some out when reloading? Or is there some kind of tube-loading device (there seems to be one shown in the Fubiki's illustration) that works like a spare clip but at the slower ml reload speed? If so, do I need 4 ten-round "clips" to reload all four tubes, or can I get away with just a 5 spare clip fee per full load (40 rounds in this case), like other pistols?

Or maybe a 5 ammo-belt to pull the shells out of when loading the weapon?

Is there actually a RAW solution to this question? Or is it just something I'll have to work out with the GM?

I've tried to reverse-engineer the equipment costs of the sample characters to figure out how the developers did it, but no luck. I even found a few cases where the characters seem to have more gear than they have money for, but I haven't gotten around to pricing out each character's equipment and checking it against the errata changes, so maybe that explains it.

(Lol at the weapon specialist errata'd to have a missile launcher and no missiles)

Anyway, I'd appreciate any info you guys could give me on this...

I'd say that four magazines (Often erroniously called "Clips") are needed for Yamaha Sakura Fubiki indeed. And not just any magazines, but Pre-Loaded Yamaha Magazines that can only be bought at specifical dealerships or well-equipped Fixers everywhere (At a slightly increased market rate.).

Sounds about right--although I think used and homemade Fubiki mags would hit the black market almost immediately.

Still, I take it this is your opinion, and not a book ruling?

All this "not covered in the books" stuff with SR4 can take a little getting used to, I must've scanned the book dozens of times looking for equipment weights and numbers for the oft-mentioned recoil of a panther cannon before noticing the single line addressing each issue.

I don't really mind rpgs that go "rules-light" like that, but it does make it harder on the players to leave so many basic mechanics up to the gm. (And therefore subject to change from one game master to another.)

Yeah, house rule. There might be something in the Forums here that's official from the company, but I just got here myself.

Been making a nuisance of myself since, however.

>I'd say that four magazines (Often erroniously called "Clips")
Care you spell out the difference?

Certainly!

Visual Aid Here Because IMG Tag did not work.

The item on the left is a "Clip", the item on the right is a "Magazine".

Sadly, game makers are rarely proficient with the weapons they put in their games--hence not being able to quick-draw melee weapons in SR4.

<-- Can (and has) iaijutsu'd through a steel wall stud IRL, but can't do it in game when playing an adept

For belt-fed ammo, I'd say you get 20-30 belt links for your 5 .

Note, that with linked ammo like this, you generally won't get the links back. An empty mag can be conveniently stuffed in a pocket and reloaded later. 30 individual belt links are spread over several square meters. If you use a bag to catch the brass and links, you have to worry about the bag filling up and jamming your weapon.

For the Fubuki, I'd say the same 5 on top of the ammo cost per tube of ammo.

reloaded fubuki magazines would need to be really well done, or bad things would happen to your expensive roman candle. Yamaha probably doesn't make the mag/barrels tough enough for dozens of rounds, cause they don't need to be that heavy/expensive.

I should probably clarify: By "belt of ammo" I meant a bandoleer-type thing, not an ammo belt as in "belt-fed ammunition". Just trying to think of an alternative for non-magazine using weapons since carrying a bunch of loose bullets around in my pocket seems equal parts stupid, silly, and dangerous. I know there are belts like that used to hold shotgun cartridges nowadays.

Other than that, I'm not sure I understand your post. SR4 already has rules for reloading an empty clip (magazine, but the game calls them clips), and I have no idea what you're referring to about dozens of rounds and bags jamming the weapon. When I mentioned having the shells in a bag, I was talking about just having a sack full of lose ammo like a bag of marbles that you'd reach into and take out one at a time to lead a muzzle-loading weapon--mainly to illustrate how ridiculous that sounded and why I was looking for an alternative storage/carrying method.

[edit] OK, you're talking about belt-fed weapons there. I've been up all night so I'm a little dense right now. Still not sure what you mean about the dozens of rounds for the Fubiki though...

The Fubiki is a weird little bit of technology; it isn't "muzzle loading" as it is "loaded muzzle." You can't buy individual cartridges for it; the rounds are manufactured into the barrels. And unless you are a whizz armorer with a good chemistry/electronics background and a shop, you can't make your own.

Me, I'd say raise the price of Fubiki ammo by 5Y, the cost of a magazine. Fortunately, each barrel holds the standard ammo unit of 10 rounds. Although with the exception of shotgun shells, I've never seen small arms ammo in boxes that small IRL. Fifty is the norm, but I personally don't see the value in buying in lots of less than 500.

Yeah, that's the one thing I miss from the Street Samurai Catelog... Ammo in bulk.

"And let my neighbours know I got 'em!"

Now that you mention it, it does seem odd to buy ammo in units of 10. Most ammo I've seen comes in larger quantities. Especially in the case of pistol and rifle ammo.

Stuffer Shack Convience-Sized Ammunition Packs!

Really? It does say the fubuki uses caseless ammo stacked in-line in the barrel, but it also specificly lists the weapon as muzzle-loading (ml) in the table and there are ways of doing that without having to swap out the frigging barrels on your gun. That would explain the picture a little better though...

...kind of a stupid design for a gun that way though. If a composite sniper rife suffers decreased performace when it gets bumped, wouldn't this thing?

Yay for internal consistency.

This gun uses a technology that exists today called "Metal Storm", and is actually *VERY* reliable. Almost completely solid state, the bullets are almost the only moving parts.

The only moving parts on this gun would be the folding shoulder brace, the trigger, and the removeable barrels. That's. It.

Now, compare that to a multi-part, finely machined, hand-made tool designed to be carefully lugged around, fire one shot, then carefully lugged back, and there you have it.

Also keeping in mind that one is supposed to put out a wall of lead whereas the other is supposed to engage targets accurately up to a kilometer and a half away.

I'm stealing that right now, Doc.

@ DocTaotsu: Good point, but for a weapon whose entire sales pitch is improved accuracy and stability due to a lack of moving parts, having a detachable barrel seems like a bad idea.

@ CanRay: MetalStorm is a company and a brand, in the same sense that Band-Aid is a brand of adhesive medical strips. I'm familiar with the company and their tech, which is why I wanted to make a character that used a fubuki.

It's also why I find the "fubukis use removable barrels" idea ridiculous. Removable barrels are a bad idea for stacked projectile weapons.

Not if you buy the barrel loaded from the manufacturer and only use manufacturer-branded consumables. And the weapon is designed so the barrel is the clip. You might even only be able to get them in 4-barrel sets... Turn the used barrels in for a deposit refund. It's not like they'll suffer from much wear between refurb/refills.

I fail to see how the lack of moving parts (because your barrel seats directly into a socket and not a complex system designed to move rounds into and out of battery hundreds of times per minute) decreases performance. I will also note that the max suggested range if 50 meters.

Removable barrels, as I understand them, are pretty much the only good idea for stacked projectiles. The Metal Storm system works now and works fairly well (from what I've heard which admittedly isn't much), I welcome you to present evidence that there is another system of stacking projectiles that works better than a prefabbed factory direct solution.

We, the players, buy them in lots of 10 for simpler accounting. Our _characters_ take them home in boxes of 20, 50 or whatever.

Or get the 10-round Convience Packs at the Stuffer Shack.

Better to buy in bulk from your friendly, local Gunlegger.

I've just gotta take this opportunity to bitch about extended clips taking up a weapon mod slot, and requiring an armorer to install. I'm not a gun person, but it seems to me that a longer clip wouldn't really require any modification to the gun. Am I wrong?

Yeeaaaah, I never really realized that's how the rule was written. All my players put them on weapons that had internal magazines and the like so it made a fair bit of sense that it'd take up a mod slot. It it was something simple like the number of shells in a shotgun i made the armorer test pretty easy, extending the capacity on a sport rifle? Not so much.

But yeah, unless things have changed dramatically I think that slapping a super extendo mag into your Ares Pred IV should be a matter of simply buying a longer clip.

It is because it adds to the overall bulkiness of the weapon, that's why the rule is the way it is slot-wise. The use of the Armorer skill comes in probably because extended clips go beyond the already-high capacity of standard mass-produced clips. What I mean is that you have to remachine the clip itself in some cases or alter the weapon's feeding mechanism for a wider clip. Adding capacity to a clip doesn't just mean making it longer, it can also mean using a wider clip with a different stacking, I don't remember what that is called off the top of my head.

BTW, not to hijack the thread, but you can actually qucik-draw anything - there's an adept power you can get that allows it or there's a martial arts maneuver (iaijutsu). Neither are in the base book, though.

For the extended mag thing, you might need to strengthen the magazine well to accept the heavier weight of the extendo magazine.

But, yeah, house-ruling that one to being for guns that have built-in internal magazines, like Bolt-Action Rifles and Pump Shotguns. Revolvers got their own version already.

No, you cannot get an extended magazine for your Double-Barrelled Elephant Rifle!

Wouldn't that make it a triple barrel rifle?

...

True. OK, you get to beg Holland & Holland for one. Realize that they put 200+ Manhours into each and every firearm they make. You might have to wait for more than just shipping on this one.

H&H sales rep: "So, Mr. Jones, you want one of the world's most expensive firearms drastically modified and customized?"
<whispers to his assistant> "Get the sales office for Bugatti on the line. Daddy needs a Veyron!"
"Mr Jones, we will get right on it!"

Wireless glitch ate my post, hence the late reply. Will retype...



You misunderstood me. The selling point behind the Sakura Fubiki (and RL stacked projectile weapons) is that fewer moving parts improve performance. Removable barrelmags work against that, because they turn the entire barrel into a moving part. Like a regular removable magazine, there has to be a certain amount of clearance between the mag and it's housing in the body of the weapon, this will cause the barrel of the weapon to vibrate when fired. Bad.

This vibration would degrade accuracy and increase the effect of recoil, possibly making it worse than a standard burst-fire weapon whose barrel is part of the frame.



The last time I checked, MetalStorm weapons used fixed barrels, and they were still working on improving the reloading method. As I recall, they were looking at electronically-fired stacked projectiles that expanded after loading, wedging them in the barrel, and multi-tube systems that had to be reloaded in a factory.

This may have changed, but user-replaceable barrelmags would be a step backwards for the technology--for the reasons I outlined above.

I'm specifically angry about the Uzi IV. I'm a long-time SR player, and since SR1, my policy with regards to non-military characters (pretty much all my characters) is to buy guns based on what looks the coolest. In my opinion, the coolest SMG in the main book was the Uzi IV. If you get the time, look at that picture. Doesn't that seem like an extended clip? That would make sense, because if I recall correctly, the Uzi IV has the smallest ammo capacity of any of the main book SMGs. So naturally, when Arsenal came out, I wanted to get an extended clip. Unfortunately, it's going to take some mod work, and might actually be prevented by the fact that when I bought it, I had an internal smartlink installed, and since then, I've welded a hood ornament to the top of the thing (don't ask). I hate to sound greedy, I just don't see how a hood ornament and smartlink are going to affect how long the clip needs to be in the slightest. If I was trying to get a wider clip, it would make more sense; that's not what I'm trying to do.

Well, so much of the SR4 mechanics are in houserule territory anyway, you can always hope for a sympathetic DM.

Also, I checked Metal Storm's Official Website and yes, they do used fixed barrels and muzzle-loading.

I always preferred the look of the ISG myself The Uzi's clip isn't really that big when you look at it. Increase the size by 50% though and take the hood ornament into account and the thing is probably taller than it is long. *shrugs* Maybe the actual B/R skill (had to bring it back to the old-skool just for you ) shouldn't be needed in all cases, but taking up a slot does seem to make sense to me. The bottom line is, can you convince your GM to go along with ignoring that part of the book to do what you want?

I don't agree with the stock rules for extended magazines either. Tube magazines like on a shotgun, sure. Internal magazine, like in a SKS, sure. Not for a weapon with an internal magazine, like most semiauto pistols and nearly all SMGs & Assault rifles.

Weight eventually becomes an issue if your magazine is heavy enough (see the Betaco C-Mag), but not when adding only 50% more rounds.

Your weapon will be bulkier with an extended mag, since the mag that used to slide completely into the grip now sticks out 5 inches. Google the Glock 18 vs Glock 17 for a good comparison.

Speed Wraith made a good point about making the magazine wider, not just longer. Going from a single-stack magazine to a double-stack magazine _will_ give you more rounds in a mag of a set length, but there you _would_ need a lot of armorer work.

Really though, any Lt/Hvy pistol with over 8-10 rounds per mag is probably already double stack.

They also don't have a small-arms market yet. They are putting a lot of time & money in the 40mm GL market, because right now, that is the only place their product is remotely practical. I like their 4x4 40mm GL, but only for applications where you are nearly assured of finishing the fight in 16 rounds, like security vehicles.

Perimeter defense would be another good application. The solid state operation would let you leave the system out on a fenceline with nearly no maintenance.

I just checked Metal Storm's site, and they do have a 4-round, 18mm shotgun module that can clip onto a rifle. It is interesting, I grant you that. It still is not a primary weapon.

The site casually mention soldiers "topping up" their weapons by loading extra rounds in the front, but don't emphasize that this entails putting your hand over the muzzle of a loaded weapon! BIG firearm no-no!

I am not saying Metal Storm will never find a niche, I just don't think it will be in conventional small-arms. The more times you think you will need to fire the weapon, the worse the Metal Storm system will fit the role. Look up the O'Dwyer pistol. It looked promising, then disappeared. It was even featured on Future Weapons (so it must be tacticool!)

Here are some places small caliber MS weapons might find a niche:

sub-sub-compact holdouts- A tube the size of a cigar holds 4 pistol rounds. Use it once then toss it, because it uses a cheap and light ceramic/carbon fiber barrel.
Less-lethal police options- A module the size of a tactical handgun light holds a few less-lethal rounds, like beanbag, stickyshock or teargas capsules.

I know what you mean about going by the illustrations, I have to admit that part of why I like the Sakura Fubiki. It's also why I'm ticked about the nerfed flechette ammo rules--this Ares Viper Slivergun is so slick-looking, but it's practically useless now except for assassinating unarmored opponents.

[Edit]

Edited for response to NinjapostTM:

Yeah, I'm familiar with the O'Dwyer VLe, the article about it in Popular Mechanics was where I first heard of Metal Storm.

A couple things to keep in mind:

A: The focus on military weapons over personal firearms is probably more about legal and business issues than practicality. Military contracts are where the money is, and weapons like the VLe are probably covered by some facet of the laws that ban automatic weapons. If not, they'd quickly make such a law as soon as some kid brought his dad's Bertha to school.

Also, the military is quicker to adopt new weapons tech, if it can be proven to work, whereas the public usually remains skeptical for a while after a new technology is introduced.

B: There still wasn't any way to reload these things in the field when the O'Dwyer was produced. Their site is kind of vague about the reloading methods used now, (military contractors tend to be) but there isn't a real push for them to go back into the handgun market right now, so they haven't done much development in that areas.

Just looking as the Fubiki and the ammo types in shadowrun gives you an idea of what these things could do as personal firearms. Metal Storm may push the "less lethal" angle because it makes them sound good (instead of sounding like death merchants), but the real advantage to multiple barrels is in switching between different ammo types to maximize your lethality.

Need to gun down an unarmored person in a hurry?
Use flechettes.
Got somebody hiding behind a door?
APDS.
Wanna' take out that armored mook?
EX Explosive.
Just need to drop somebody fast, without worrying about killing them or not?
Stick-n-Shock.

Load each barrel with a different ammo type, and there you go.
It's not as effective in the Fubiki, which only gives you 10 shots per barrel, but in a larger model you could pack alot more ammunition in.

Reloading's still a problem, but I'd rather muzzle-load with an electronic-firing weapon than a hammer-tripped one.

Useless??

its +3 to damage and BF mode(FA cheaply with 1 mod slot) and okey it has +5 to Impact armor(witch is usually allready slower than ballistic) but statistically you need +9 to armor to resist that +3DV and even more if using burstfire.

My teeth are ground down to little stubs now because every time I read "clips" in a SR sourcebook I gnash my teeth.

Can you believe use of the term "clips" in spite of Mike Mulvhille's intro to Cannon Companion? How can someone who claims to have stacks of gun rags say "clip" and not "magazine"?

Incidentally, I wish I could buy magazines for only 5 bucks apiece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqXelhHjNkU

Hey, after two matrix crashes, and a round of UGE, ammo gets cheap.

@ Mäx: I believe the errata nerfs the slivergun's DV too. Not specifically, and the weapon description does say slivergun ammo is unique, but if it nerfs the AP, then the DV probably goes too. So that's +2 DV, for +5 AP, which means...

>does math<

...which means you have a whopping +2 DV against unarmored opponents, otherwise you have very expensive regular ammo.

Granted, the built in burst-fire and sound suppression are sweet--especially at that price--but most of your enemies are going to have at least some armor. Even against a guard in nothing but a helmet and boxer shorts the damage code of flechettes is going to be the same as regular ammo for 5x the price...

...unless you bypass the armor with a called shot.

[edit]

@ b1ffov3rfl0w

Fraggin' hilarious!

I'm good, but not that good. XD

For the record, cutting through the wall stud was an accident--I don't really have a big enough living room to practice in. This leads to interesting conversations such as: What are those gouges in your ceiling?

Thank you. I no longer feel alone.

And I don't even have stacks of Gun Rags!

Last time I had to wait at the airport, I think I spent about $4.75 on a Time...

Oh, yeah, you're *NOT* spending Five Bucks on a Firearm Magazine.

You're spending five .

Which ranges between UCAS$20-30 depending on the exchange rate. Probably even more in 2070!

Tell me about it. I just bought three new Wilson Combat Mags for my 1911 at $30USD a pop. Ouch!

why would the DV go 8P(f) is the only DV we have for the weapon i can acceps the fact that change in fletchette AP carries over but i can not accept nerfing the DV not with out a spicifig errata pot for slivergun, i thing the guns base damage code (if you could use standart ammo in it) is DV6 AP-.

Incorrect. The clip and the magazine are now actually one object, so technically both are correct. If you want the reason why, see http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1323705

I'd like to see you put forward that evidence at a gun range.

Of course, the "Flame War" there might be more dangerous than one here.

Every hobby has it's fanboys. You should see those Society for Creative Anachronisms guys with their "We don't want to hear about the physics behind a sword stroke! Science cannot encompass the art that is my steel!!!teh1"

Seriously, it's pathetic--especially when you get guys hamstringing their technique because they don't know the physics behind a cutting stroke and are operating under false assumptions...

Could be worse. Could be a group of Fanboy Nuclear Physicists that refuse to let you talk to them about the math behind their "Art"!